Orlando Florida Shootings

[Tacenda]

http://www.cnn.com/2016/06/12/us/orlando-nightclub-shooting/

This needs to be posted, like all the other shootings listed in News.  We need to face the music and figure out what needs to be done in this country to avoid these mass shootings.  

[sjdawg]

I know gun control is a very touchy subject in the USA but doesn't it need to be considered?   I'm not aware of any other country that has as many mass shootings as the United States does.   It won't prevent every instance and it sounds like the gun used in this specific event was already illegal but I think some open dialogue on the topic needs to occur.

 

[Tacenda]

1 minute ago, sjdawg said:

I know gun control is a very touchy subject in the USA but doesn't it need to be considered?   I'm not aware of any other country that has as many mass shootings as the United States does.   It won't prevent every instance and it sounds like the gun used in this specific event was already illegal but I think some open dialogue on the topic needs to occur.

 

My thoughts exactly.

[sjdawg]

This is one of my favorite stories about guns in Canada.   A police officer from Michigan wrote to a newspaper in Calgary upset that he couldn't carry a gun while vacationing in Calgary, Alberta.   He unintentionally made himself the target of a lot of ridicule.   Thank Goodness not everyone's instinct is to pull a gun if someone asks them "have you been to the Stampede yet"?

 

http://news.nationalpost.com/news/walt-wawra

 

[Meadowchik]

We also need to acknowledge all other homicide deaths each year; which vastly oitnumber deaths from mass shootings.

[Robert F. Smith]

7 hours ago, sjdawg said:

I know gun control is a very touchy subject in the USA but doesn't it need to be considered?   I'm not aware of any other country that has as many mass shootings as the United States does.

The USA has comparatively few mass shootings, and nearly all of those which do occur are in places where guns are not supposed to be allowed (schools, theaters, and other "gun-free zones").  Other countries have mass shootings, and that includes many countries with long running civil wars.  The per capita death rates make America look pretty tame.  Nearly all shootings in the USA occur in the inner city where poverty, drugs, disease, and gangs predominate.  Most areas remain untouched by such violence.

  It won't prevent every instance and it sounds like the gun used in this specific event was already illegal but I think some open dialogue on the topic needs to occur.

Foreign political and religious ideologies play a big part in these mass shootings, along with mental illness of some perpetrators.  There will be no meaningful dialogue on this issue, just as there has not been in the past.  Professional opinion is ignored, while yokels think that a gun ban is the answer.  We can reduce the number of instances of shootings by applying a totalitarian regime on America, which would mean the end of our open society.  The cure would be worse than the disease.

 

[Storm Rider]

It would be nice if for once I heard a leader discuss the "whys" of mass killings rather than immediately jump on the bandwagon of controlling guns will somehow magically stop the problem.  

Lastly, at the risk of being accused of being an Islamophobic lunatic, the nation needs an open dialogue with Muslim theologians and imams about the inherent violence that is acceptable within Islam against non-Muslims.  Nothing that IS is doing now is strange or radical - it imitates what early Islam did in the same geographic areas.  The idea of radical Islam is inaccurate unless we are addressing those who are only interested in praying, fasting during Ramadan, giving to the poor, and going on Hajj and leaving the rest of it to history.  There is much to deeply admire about Islam and Muslims, but it does have a very dark side.

[CV75]

9 hours ago, Tacenda said:

http://www.cnn.com/2016/06/12/us/orlando-nightclub-shooting/

This needs to be posted, like all the other shootings listed in News.  We need to face the music and figure out what needs to be done in this country to avoid these mass shootings.  

It is interesting to me that when we hear these reports, we're beginning to hear that they are considered terrorist acts inspired by such-and-such an ideology; the perpetrators have serious personal issues which they seek to glorify by attaching to a particular cause. One of the USA government's approach is to counter such ideologies at the community level, but I'm not sure how a government succeeds in going about preaching an effective, political gospel of peace. Of course the Book of Mormon lays out the direct answer.

“And these are they who have published peace, who have brought good tidings of good, who have published salvation; and said unto Zion: Thy God reigneth! And O how beautiful upon the mountains were their feet! And again, how beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of those that are still publishing peace! And again, how beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of those who shall hereafter publish peace, yea, from this time henceforth and forever! And behold, I say unto you, this is not all. For O how beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that is the founder of peace, yea, even the Lord, who has redeemed his people; yea, him who has granted salvation unto his people… Yea, Lord, thy watchmen shall lift up their voice; with the voice together shall they sing; for they shall see eye to eye, when the Lord shall bring again Zion.” – Mosiah 15; 14-18, 29.

“And blessed are they who shall seek to bring forth my Zion at that day, for they shall have the gift and the power of the Holy Ghost; and if they endure unto the end they shall be lifted up at the last day, and shall be saved in the everlasting kingdom of the Lamb; and whoso shall publish peace, yea, tidings of great joy, how beautiful upon the mountains shall they be. And it came to pass that I beheld the remnant of the seed of my brethren, and also the book of the Lamb of God, which had proceeded forth from the mouth of the Jew, that it came forth from the Gentiles unto the remnant of the seed of my brethren. And after it had come forth unto them I beheld other books, which came forth by the power of the Lamb, from the Gentiles unto them, unto the convincing of the Gentiles and the remnant of the seed of my brethren, and also the Jews who were scattered upon all the face of the earth, that the records of the prophets and of the twelve apostles of the Lamb are true.” -- 1 Nephi 13: 37 – 39

“And awake, and arise from the dust, O Jerusalem; yea, and put on thy beautiful garments, O daughter of Zion; and strengthen thy stakes and enlarge thy borders forever, that thou mayest no more be confounded, that the covenants of the Eternal Father which he hath made unto thee, O house of Israel, may be fulfilled.” – Moroni 10: 31

...but we better not actually call it “Zion!” LOL But we can still be pure in heart.

[sjdawg]

1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said:

 

Comparitively few mass shootings when compared to what countries?   

[sjdawg]

23 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

It would be nice if for once I heard a leader discuss the "whys" of mass killings rather than immediately jump on the bandwagon of controlling guns will somehow magically stop the problem.  

Lastly, at the risk of being accused of being an Islamophobic lunatic, the nation needs an open dialogue with Muslim theologians and imams about the inherent violence that is acceptable within Islam against non-Muslims.  Nothing that IS is doing now is strange or radical - it imitates what early Islam did in the same geographic areas.  The idea of radical Islam is inaccurate unless we are addressing those who are only interested in praying, fasting during Ramadan, giving to the poor, and going on Hajj and leaving the rest of it to history.  There is much to deeply admire about Islam and Muslims, but it does have a very dark side.

I live in the middle east and I can say that no Muslim I have ever encountered believes that violence against non-Muslims is acceptable.   

[TheSkepticChristian]

2 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Other countries have mass shootings, and that includes many countries with long running civil wars. The per capita death rates make America look pretty tame

 That is something else! Civil Wars and organized crime are a different problem! The mass shooting problem in the USA is mostly caused by individuals that are mentally unstable. 

2 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

 along with mental illness of some perpetrators.

Loners in the USA that are mentally unstable can't buy an assault weapon from cartels or the black market, loners simply don't have connections. 

That is why it is a different problem, you can't compare mentally ill loners with organized cartels. 

Edited June 13, 2016 by TheSkepticChristian

[Storm Rider]

41 minutes ago, sjdawg said:

I live in the middle east and I can say that no Muslim I have ever encountered believes that violence against non-Muslims is acceptable.   

I have recently returned from the Middle East after having lived there for five years.  I lived in the UAE and Qatar and worked in Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Oman, Yemen, Egypt, and Lebanon.  I do not speak from ignorance, but from an informed position.  

If I was not wrong then you would see far more condemnation of IS or any other Islamic terrorist organization from the Islamic world.  We do not see a uniform, loud, clear condemnation.  We see political resistance from those who would lose power, but no moral condemnation, because jihad remains a major tenant of Islam. 

Lastly, I have spent much time sitting in majlis in the homes of wonderful Muslims discussing this topic.  

[thesometimesaint]

Millions have fled ISIS. Thousands of human bodies have washed up on Mediterranean shores fleeing ISIS. God only knows how many became fish food. We do see loud vocal denunciations of terrorism by Muslims.

[sjdawg]

50 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

I have recently returned from the Middle East after having lived there for five years.  I lived in the UAE and Qatar and worked in Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Oman, Yemen, Egypt, and Lebanon.  I do not speak from ignorance, but from an informed position.  

If I was not wrong then you would see far more condemnation of IS or any other Islamic terrorist organization from the Islamic world.  We do not see a uniform, loud, clear condemnation.  We see political resistance from those who would lose power, but no moral condemnation, because jihad remains a major tenant of Islam. 

Lastly, I have spent much time sitting in majlis in the homes of wonderful Muslims discussing this topic.  

I'm not saying your wrong I'm just saying that is not my experience based on conversations with Muslims I live and work with

[ERayR]

12 hours ago, sjdawg said:

I know gun control is a very touchy subject in the USA but doesn't it need to be considered?   I'm not aware of any other country that has as many mass shootings as the United States does.   It won't prevent every instance and it sounds like the gun used in this specific event was already illegal but I think some open dialogue on the topic needs to occur.

 

Not until the cause of the shootings is recognized.  As I understand the European news is reporting the shooters ISIS connections while here in the US it cannot even be whispered.

[thesometimesaint]

13 minutes ago, ERayR said:

Not until the cause of the shootings is recognized.  As I understand the European news is reporting the shooters ISIS connections while here in the US it cannot even be whispered.

WOW, Say some magic words and suddenly male terrorism ceases to exist.

SEE http://liberalsarecool.com/post/145836347471/almost-1000

[Daniel2]

Test post...

[Daniel2]

As news of the horrific details of this tragedy continue to unfold, this article resonated with me... (in particular, the paragraphs I bolded)

 

Quote

What It Costs to Be Gay in Public

Dave Holmes on Orlando, and the way we live now.

Most Popular

By Dave Holmes

Jun 12, 2016

As the grim news continues to come in from Orlando, as the death toll continues to rise, and the lines at the blood banks continue to grow, and the thoughts and prayers begin to stack up, one ugly phrase clanks around in my head: "angry at two men kissing." 

Allegedly, during a recent trip to Miami, the Orlando shooter was confronted with the sight of two men kissing one another, in front of his child (and presumably also in front of the heterosexual couples who were also kissing one another in front of his child).

This sight was so troubling to him—to a man with a history of violence, who was being watched by the FBI, and who was in no way inhibited from buying an assault rifle—that he felt compelled toward violence. He was motivated to commit an act of terrorism toward the gay community.  

But here's the thing: terrorism toward LGBT people is a redundancy. 

The FBI defines terrorism as "violent acts or acts dangerous to human life…that appear to be intended to intimidate or coerce a civilian population." LGBT people around the world have been intimidated and coerced all our lives. Each one of us has moved to kiss our boyfriend on the cheek in public, or reached for our wife's hand as we walked down the street, and each one of us has pulled back. 

We have all needed to read the room, to think about how we present ourselves to the world, to determine how much of ourselves we are free to express. Each one of us, at least once, has worried whether we were coming off too gay. 

Too many of us have been terrorized by actual violent acts, but each of us—when we are called a faggot, when we hear a gay joke and nobody speaks up, when we watch a dozen presidential hopefuls from one of our country's two political parties promise to amend the Constitution to steal our civil rights—has been subject to an act that is dangerous to human life. We all have scars on our souls from it. All of us. 

But here's the thing: terrorism toward LGBT people is a redundancy.

We have been terrorized by our own culture, a culture that will still, in 2016, indulge and coddle one's anger at two men kissing. We have had the need to create our own spaces, places where we can kiss and dance and dial it up as much as we want. These spaces have existed throughout time, all over the world. You can't intimidate and coerce them out of existence. 

Everyone who walked through the doors of Pulse last night showed up pre-terrorized. Fifty people and counting survived a lifetime of cultural terrorism, and then lost their lives in an instant because someone was angry at two men kissing. 

But they showed up. And those of us who are left will show up again. We will always show up. We are stronger than terror. We are stronger than disease. We are stronger than homophobia. 

Today, as we watch pro-gun politicians, politicians who have introduced literally hundreds of anti-LGBT bills this calendar year, offer thoughts and prayers but never once mention homophobia, we will show up. We will march, we will gather, and we will be strong together. 

Terror hasn't stopped us yet. 

 

Thoughts, prayers, and well-wishes to the families and those most affected by this senseless act of violence.

Edited June 13, 2016 by Daniel2

[Calm]

I understand it is likely the man was bipolar, it is possible if he came from a different culture he would have done the same thing in the name of Christ.  We are not lacking in those examples unfortunately.

[Calm]

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/06/12/drag-queen-orlando-gunman-omar-mateen-was-my-friend.html

[toon]

9 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

We also need to acknowledge all other homicide deaths each year; which vastly oitnumber deaths from mass shootings.

I don't disagree.  But it's a point probably best made not immediately in the aftermath of a mass shooting and in a thread discussing that mass shooting.

[Meadowchik]

13 minutes ago, toon said:

I don't disagree.  But it's a point probably best made not immediately in the aftermath of a mass shooting and in a thread discussing that mass shooting.

 If you wanna talk technical and political about the tragedy, which is the inherent nature of the OP, you're already crossing that line.

And this is a discussion thread intended to probe the existence and causality of mass shootings. Imo it would be deliberately ignorant to ignore other homicides just because they occur a little at a time in comparison, especially when the numbers are higher by magnitudes.

Hopefully you will not argue the politics of this at the victims funerals...I wouldn't either, nor would I do so in a conversation intended as one of mourning.

And hopefully those of us who are personally further removed from the Pulse violence will do some hard thinking because God knows their friends and families have enough on their plates now.

[Guest]

17 hours ago, Tacenda said:

http://www.cnn.com/2016/06/12/us/orlando-nightclub-shooting/

This needs to be posted, like all the other shootings listed in News.  We need to face the music and figure out what needs to be done in this country to avoid these mass shootings.  

Law abiding citizens which carry weapons, who are trained and licensed to use those firearms, everywhere there is a threat. I do not and never will support carrying weapons where liquor is served, but someone should always be outside who is armed. Most places do have off duty officers outside, but not all. Taking guns away from the law abiding will never be the answer, that is what all criminals and terriosts would hope for. 

[Robert F. Smith]

10 hours ago, sjdawg said:

Comparitively few mass shootings when compared to what countries?   

I always suggest that we take the total population of a country and divide by the number of mass shootings, in order to obtain the per capita rate (annual, decadal, etc.).  France and Norway have had much larger mass shootings, while countries with civil unrest have more frequent shootings (many Muslim countries, Israel - West Bank, etc.).  The top 4 countries with higher mass shooting figures than the USA are Norway, Finland, Slovakia, and Israel.  http://archive.is/f4gbv .  And that isn't even counting less developed countries in the midst of civil war.

[Robert F. Smith]

9 hours ago, TheSkepticChristian said:

 That is something else! Civil Wars and organized crime are a different problem! The mass shooting problem in the USA is mostly caused by individuals that are mentally unstable. 

Loners in the USA that are mentally unstable can't buy an assault weapon from cartels or the black market, loners simply don't have connections. 

That is why it is a different problem, you can't compare mentally ill loners with organized cartels. 

Nearly all gun deaths in the USA occur within the inner city -- where the criminal street gangs are never called "cartels" -- and nearly all of the guns used were illegally obtained.  The perp in the Orlando shooting was mentally unstable, the FBI had interviewed him, and he was a known domestic abuser.  His security company had been told of his crazy opinions and behavior, but did nothing.  His father is a Muslim extremist.  Yet he was able to obtain and keep guns.  In fact, loners can buy any sort of weapon on the street, if they have the cash.