GLBT+ Protest planned for Fast Sunday?

[Tacenda]

16 hours ago, Jeanne said:

It sounds so easy doesn't it? I am so tired of hearing how the church loves all..and to not baptize little kids because they love them.  Ostracize families for no reason..none!  If you want to shake off the natural man...ALL of us have a lot of work to do.  You blame so much on decisions made that cannot be helped and then judge.  If the above post was to work..you would have to blame yourself right?

Yet they baptize dozens and dozens of children from non gay parents.

[california boy]

17 hours ago, Mystery Meat said:

I think that is gross distortion, but if it makes you feel better...

Quote

 

Sorry, but I wasn't the one going on for the past page saying that if a gay person finds happiness and peace in this life, then he is being deceived by SATAN.

WARNING: THE ABOVE IS A GROSS MISINTERPRETATION OF WHAT WAS ACTUALLY SAID. 

CFR that I ever said that if a "gay person finds happiness and peace in this life, then he is being deceived by SATAN." Congratulations on the most dishonest characterization of what someone has said on this board.

And I wasn't the one that has been going on for pages saying that a gay person can be a part of the plan of happiness and still be gay when you yourself admit that every gay person has to become straight in order to be a part of that plan.

Can a porn addict be a part of the plan of happiness? Can a thief be a part of the plan of happiness? Can a adulterer be a part of the plan of happiness? Yes. But repentance implies they are no longer  porn addicts, thieves, or adulterers. These are all sins. Having sex or being in a SSM is also a Sin. Why would LGBTs expect to be treated any different for their sins as anyone else?

 

Just a note to clarify.  Mystery Meat's answers are in bold.

 

Sorry I didn't answer your post immediately.  I wanted to spend some time thinking about your objections.  I want to be respectful in how I answer  your post because I truly believe that you are making a sincere effort to understand how gays and church teachings fit together.  I guess I need further clarification on what you actually believe.  Maybe you can point out where I went wrong.

 

1.  Do you believe there will be gay people in the Celestial Kingdom or do you believe ALL must become straight and no longer attracted to the same sex?

2.  Do you believe that any gay person who chooses to marry someone of the same sex is following God or giving into the powers of Satan

3. Do you believe that a gay person who is celibate in this life needs to repent just like a thief, or an adulterer, or someone who is addicted to porn?

4.  If a gay person who is celibate has nothing to repent of, can he still be attracted to the same sex and have a place in the Celestial Kingdom?  Or must he become straight in order to participate in the plan of happiness.

5.  How much of this do you think has been revealed to the brethren by God and how much of this do you think is their best guess?

I think if I can get clarification on what your actually beliefs are, I will be able to more accurately explain why I don't feel that a gay person has any place in the plan of happiness.

Thanks MM.  I look forward to your insights.

[Mystery Meat]

9 hours ago, rockpond said:

I have not created any such demands. 

Do you, or do you not, believe that the Church should minimize the importance of man/woman marriage and/or accept SSM as an alternative of equal value in the eyes of the Lord?

Nor have I said that you claimed sexual orientation to be a sin. 

What I said is that you often confound orientation and actions in your posts here.  We were talking about gay youth (not youth in sexual relationships) and helping them feel a part of God's plan.  And then you jumped to the comparison with adulterers, thieves, and porn addicts.  

Okay. The message to these young folks is that they are loved. The Church loves them, we, as a people love them. But we cannot change doctrine or minimize the importance of man/woman marriage. We warn of sin, but in the instance they are not sinning, there is really nothing to talk about. I understand that the answer is hard for many to accept. But this is the answer: sexual relationships outside of marriage is wrong. Period. Marriage is solely between one man and one woman. Anything outside of that is not condoned or approved by the Lord. Again, I get why that answer is hard for some. But it is the answer. Trying to hide it or minimize it would be inappropriate. So I am happy to continue to show love and support and to help all feel welcome, but it cannot come at the expense of revealed truth.

Here, again, in your response above you go on and on about sin.  Perhaps you could try having a conversation about LGBT folks wherein you don't start focusing on how they might sin. 

 

Edited June 17, 2016 by Mystery Meat

[Mystery Meat]

20 minutes ago, california boy said:

Just a note to clarify.  Mystery Meat's answers are in bold.

 

Sorry I didn't answer your post immediately.  I wanted to spend some time thinking about your objections.  I want to be respectful in how I answer  your post because I truly believe that you are making a sincere effort to understand how gays and church teachings fit together.  I guess I need further clarification on what you actually believe.  Maybe you can point out where I went wrong.

 

1.  Do you believe there will be gay people in the Celestial Kingdom or do you believe ALL must become straight and no longer attracted to the same sex?

I believe that there will be people in the Celestial Kingdom who were attracted to members of their gender in this life. I believe that homosexuality, while not a choice, is essentially a manifestation of the natural man and a side effect of the fall of Adam. Just like all other side effects of the fall we each face, I believe that homosexuality will be eliminated in the resurrection. So no, I do not think there will be anyone who identifies as Gay in the Celestial Kingdom. I do believe there will be people who identified as Gay in this life, however.

2.  Do you believe that any gay person who chooses to marry someone of the same sex is following God or giving into the powers of Satan

I do not believe they are following God, no. I do believe they have been deceived, yes. I do believe however, that they are capable of feeling happiness in this life. I never said, as you paraphrased, "that if a gay person finds happiness and peace in this life, then he is being deceived by SATAN "

3. Do you believe that a gay person who is celibate in this life needs to repent just like a thief, or an adulterer, or someone who is addicted to porn?

Absolutely not. He/she has committed no sin. But we warn against all sin. Someone who is prone to look at pornography deserves to be warned of its spiritual consequences, just as someone who is prone to have sex with members of their gender deserved to be warned of its spiritual consequences.

4.  If a gay person who is celibate has nothing to repent of, can he still be attracted to the same sex and have a place in the Celestial Kingdom?  Or must he become straight in order to participate in the plan of happiness.

It is not a matter of if he can, but will he. As homosexuality is a side effect of the fall which will be removed in the resurrection, no one will be a homosexual: not in the Celestial Kingdom, Terrestrial Kingdom or Telestial Kingdom. Now, I know that doesn't appeal to you right now. But if the roles were reversed, and I knew that this is the Kingdom of God on Earth (as I do) and gay marriage was the standard, I would exercise faith and put my trust in God hoping/believing/trusting that when that day came and when I was resurrected, I would be happier then I could have imagined being attracted to men and sealed to one for eternity. In other words, if I am right and you and others like you are resurrected without attraction to men it will not feel wrong to you. But in the here and now, you would have to trust God.

5.  How much of this do you think has been revealed to the brethren by God and how much of this do you think is their best guess?

I think this is all done by revelation. I do not think they are left to guess on this.

I think if I can get clarification on what your actually beliefs are, I will be able to more accurately explain why I don't feel that a gay person has any place in the plan of happiness.

Thanks MM.  I look forward to your insights.

 

[california boy]

12 hours ago, Storm Rider said:

Cal, you and the Church are both trying to say what God will do.  I would ask you to consider that God is the author and finisher of our Salvation.  Stop trying to say what God will demand of you as a gay man and expect, know, that Exaltation is complete union with God.  Yes, the Church defines the purpose of creation is to reproduce in order that God's children may come down to this earth.  The only way to serve that purpose is through the union of a man and a woman.  

This is the great, unending problem with the gay lifestyle - it is wholly and completely sterile.  There is no reproduction; it is a dead end for those individuals.  

You consistently create the spin that it is forcing all gay people to be straight or to be in straight relationships.  That is your spin, but how else does God accomplish his plan?  Why do you think God told Adam and Eve to grow and multiply?  The purpose of eternity is found in the creation of worlds without end.  The highest purpose of all of God's children is to assist in any way possible to fulfill that role.  

The conundrum for the Church is the question of why are there gay children?  What is their purpose on this earth?  I have never heard an answer that works for me, but there are a lot of questions without answers or good answers.  The fact that there are gay individuals has never withdrawn God's plan, his teachings, or his commandments.  

You seem to think that a gay person is unique in all the world in enduring troubles, problems, etc.  They would be forced to be celibate!  So what, there have been celibate men and women from the beginning of the world and there will continue to be celibate men and women long after you and I have left this earth.  Should a gay person not be celibate?  Are they somehow more important or more special than all those who have gone before?  Why?

Is knowing your trial - the challenge to live a godly life as a single person is so overwhelming that each gay person must capitulate immediately?  Of course they shouldn't.  They may choose to embrace their path as completely and happily should they choose to follow Christ.  

I don't know what God has in store for all his children.  I don't know why some children appear to suffer so horribly throughout the world.  What I am absolutely convinced of is that gay people are not even close to bearing the greatest cross when compared to the vast majority of God's children.  They have some specific challenges and they are extremely heavy burdens, but when compared to those children that have lived lives of slavery, starvation, squalor, and utter devastation of wars, genocides, etc.; there is no comparison.  It is selfish to constantly only see your own burdens rather than the burdens of those that have it much worse than you.  

No one is saying a gay person does not have burdens, but I am saying that everyone has burdens and almost every one of us can count our blessings because we know there so many that have it much worse than we do.  

You are good at seeing the shortcomings of the Church, but in being so capable to find her errors, you don't see your own very clearly.  

I will strive to do whatever my God asks of me.  I will go where he wants me to go.  I may go trembling in fear and I may falter and fall repeatedly, but I will follow him.  Why?  because he is my Master; I know his voice and I have faith that his plan for me is better than any plan I could create for myself.  He is the same Master for all who seek after him.  The price is to lose yourself.

Thanks Storm for taking the time to write this.  Maybe I could take a minute and clear up a few misconceptions you have about me.  I don't have a problem with the church requiring celibacy of gay members.  I was celibate and lived the law of chastity just like most Momons before I married.  But the reason I could do that is the promise that I could be with someone I loved and cared for throughout eternity.  And even though I didn't have those feelings when I married, I was promised that my attraction to men would be fixed and I too could fall in love with a woman and be together throughout eternity.  Does that clear up anything for you?

So what went wrong.  Well of course, the biggest thing that went wrong is that it was all based on a lie.  Being married to a woman did not make me straight and did not allow me to fall in love with a woman.  So all of the sudden the REASON for being celibate evaporated.  Now an entirely different story was given me.  Yes you will be gay, but you will NEVER fall in love, NEVER have a companion that you emotionally connect with in this life.  OK, I understand.  So what is promised me if I make that sacrifice????

Well, when you die, THEN you will want to be with a woman for eternity.  All the sudden, the promise that may sound amazing if I was straight, sounds like living hell for eternity.  Do you think I should trust church leaders this time around when the are promising me the EXACT same thing that they did when I was 20 which proved to be totally false???  And do you really think that being with a woman for eternity sounds at all appealing to me?

This isn't about celibacy.  It isn't even about not wanting to do God's will.  It is about a complete lack of trust that the church leaders have any clue as to what God wants someone who is gay to do in this earth life.  It is about a complete lack of trust that those leaders have any idea what will happen when someone is gay dies, and how God will judge them.  And for some strange reason, I, like God, think it is not good for man to be alone.  And the PROOF to me is how much more happy I am and how rich my life is, and how blessed I feel since I met a partner I can share this life with and deeply love like humans are prone to do for some reason.

And just one more thing.  I don't feel like a victim at all.  I don't feel like I have a heavy burden to carry at all.  In fact, I know how lucky I am to have the life I have.  It feels so much better trusting God and his judgement rather than leaders of the church who do not know the will of God, and are making a promise they really don't know if it is true any more than the promise give to me when I was 20. 

[california boy]

8 minutes ago, Mystery Meat said:

Just a note to clarify.  Mystery Meat's answers are in bold.

 

Sorry I didn't answer your post immediately.  I wanted to spend some time thinking about your objections.  I want to be respectful in how I answer  your post because I truly believe that you are making a sincere effort to understand how gays and church teachings fit together.  I guess I need further clarification on what you actually believe.  Maybe you can point out where I went wrong.

 

1.  Do you believe there will be gay people in the Celestial Kingdom or do you believe ALL must become straight and no longer attracted to the same sex?

I believe that there will be people in the Celestial Kingdom who were attracted to members of their gender in this life. I believe that homosexuality, while not a choice, is essentially a manifestation of the natural man and a side effect of the fall of Adam. Just like all other side effects of the fall we each face, I believe that homosexuality will be eliminated in the resurrection. So no, I do not think there will be anyone who identifies as Gay in the Celestial Kingdom. I do believe there will be people who identified as Gay in this life, however.

2.  Do you believe that any gay person who chooses to marry someone of the same sex is following God or giving into the powers of Satan

I do not believe they are following God, no. I do believe they have been deceived, yes. I do believe however, that they are capable of feeling happiness in this life. I never said, as you paraphrased, "that if a gay person finds happiness and peace in this life, then he is being deceived by SATAN "

3. Do you believe that a gay person who is celibate in this life needs to repent just like a thief, or an adulterer, or someone who is addicted to porn?

Absolutely not. He/she has committed no sin. But we warn against all sin. Someone who is prone to look at pornography deserves to be warned of its spiritual consequences, just as someone who is prone to have sex with members of their gender deserved to be warned of its spiritual consequences.

4.  If a gay person who is celibate has nothing to repent of, can he still be attracted to the same sex and have a place in the Celestial Kingdom?  Or must he become straight in order to participate in the plan of happiness.

It is not a matter of if he can, but will he. As homosexuality is a side effect of the fall which will be removed in the resurrection, no one will be a homosexual: not in the Celestial Kingdom, Terrestrial Kingdom or Telestial Kingdom. Now, I know that doesn't appeal to you right now. But if the roles were reversed, and I knew that this is the Kingdom of God on Earth (as I do) and gay marriage was the standard, I would exercise faith and put my trust in God hoping/believing/trusting that when that day came and when I was resurrected, I would be happier then I could have imagined being attracted to men and sealed to one for eternity. In other words, if I am right and you and others like you are resurrected without attraction to men it will not feel wrong to you. But in the here and now, you would have to trust God.

5.  How much of this do you think has been revealed to the brethren by God and how much of this do you think is their best guess?

I think this is all done by revelation. I do not think they are left to guess on this.

I think if I can get clarification on what your actually beliefs are, I will be able to more accurately explain why I don't feel that a gay person has any place in the plan of happiness.

Thanks MM.  I look forward to your insights.

Thanks for your clarification.  I don't really think what I wrote was a gross misrepresentation of what you are stating you believe.  At most, you could say that I saw what you wrote from my perspective.  I think what you believe closely parallels what the church teaches.  I have expressed how I feel about most of this in the post above to Stormrider.  I think if you read through it you will understand, from my perspective why following what the church has outlined for gay members becomes pretty unworkable for me.  It probably all hinges on the last question.  And this is where the gap becomes too wide.  The promise of being straight if you are just celibate in this life is the exact same promise church leaders gave me when I was 20.  It was a lie then.  Why would I believe the SAME promise this time around?

So it looks like you can't be gay in the Celestial Kingdom.  If that is the case, then it is kinda pointless to be celibate in this life unless you really believe church leaders and their current promise.  You gotta give me a good reason why I should believe them this time around when last time they just made the exact same promise up out of thin air.  And when it didn't work out, their only answer is, "we changed our minds.  Marriage is not therapy.  It won't make you straight.  oops.

[Mystery Meat]

3 minutes ago, california boy said:

Thanks for your clarification.  I don't really think what I wrote was a gross misrepresentation of what you are stating you believe.  At most, you could say that I saw what you wrote from my perspective.  I think what you believe closely parallels what the church teaches.  I have expressed how I feel about most of this in the post above to Stormrider.  I think if you read through it you will understand, from my perspective why following what the church has outlined for gay members becomes pretty unworkable for me.  It probably all hinges on the last question.  And this is where the gap becomes too wide.  The promise of being straight if you are just celibate in this life is the exact same promise church leaders gave me when I was 20.  It was a lie then.  Why would I believe the SAME promise this time around?

So it looks like you can't be gay in the Celestial Kingdom.  If that is the case, then it is kinda pointless to be celibate in this life unless you really believe church leaders and their current promise.  You gotta give me a good reason why I should believe them this time around when last time they just made the exact same promise up out of thin air.  And when it didn't work out, their only answer is, "we changed our minds.  Marriage is not therapy.  It won't make you straight.  oops.

Can I ask who made this promise to you before? What the actual words of the promise were?

[rockpond]

1 hour ago, Mystery Meat said:

 

This is pointless... When it's needed to support your claims, you say that man/woman marriage is not a necessary part of God's plan for his children... That gay people have an equal part in the plan. 

Then, within a few posts you are back to proclaiming the absolute necessity of man/woman marriage in the plan. 

I'm sorry but your message is muddled, at best.  And I fail to see how what you've written here would help any gay youth in the church feel that they aren't on the outskirts of the plan.  

 

[Mystery Meat]

1 minute ago, rockpond said:

This is pointless... When it's needed to support your claims, you say that man/woman marriage is not a necessary part of God's plan for his children... That gay people have an equal part in the plan. 

Then, within a few posts you are back to proclaiming the absolute necessity of man/woman marriage in the plan. 

I'm sorry but your message is muddled, at best.  And I fail to see how what you've written here would help any gay youth in the church feel that they aren't on the outskirts of the plan.  

 

No it is not muddled. It is clear. The Plan of Happiness is available to all, gay or straight. One does not need to be married in this life to be a full participant in it. Saying that, does not minimize the importance of man/woman marriage in the Plan. All will be given a fair shake. If a LGBT cannot have a marriage in the here and now, that in no way prevents them from full participation in the Plan of Salvation. A sixty year old never married heterosexual is likewise a full participant. 

However, your refusal to respond to the following is telling and is all I need to know:

Quote

Do you, or do you not, believe that the Church should minimize the importance of man/woman marriage and/or accept SSM as an alternative of equal value in the eyes of the Lord?

 

[california boy]

1 hour ago, Mystery Meat said:

Can I ask who made this promise to you before? What the actual words of the promise were?

When I returned from my mission I met with my bishop and stake president.  It was easy serving a mission and I loved the experience.  The next part of my life seemed way more unsure.   I was trying to figure out exactly what God wanted me to do.  They both promised me that if I married a woman, then my attraction to men would disappear and I would be healed from this affliction.  I specifically asked them if that was true, because I had to know for sure that would happen in order to make such a leap of faith.  They both assured me that it was and that God wanted me to have a happy and healthy life.  Trust God, and He would heal me.

It was a common promise made to gay men during that time.  I don't know if it came from higher up, but it seemed to be a consistent policy.  I have talked to many gay men who were made the exact same promise.  I used to go to Evergreen on a weekly basis when I was trying to deal with this issue. (it was a support group for gay men dealing with this issue similar to the drug addiction program.  I am sure you can Google it if you want more information on Evergreen.) All of the gay guys that attended were told a similar thing.  All were married except on guy who had already divorced.  I also would travel to SLC each year for the annual conference.  We would hear similar talks about how you could walk away from having same sex attraction.  When divorce rates continued to skyrocketed in these types of marriages, the church backed off on this promise.  A new police was instituted.  Marriage was not to be viewed as therapy.  The promise was no longer given.

As a side note, the Evergreen group that I attended in the Bay Area fell completely apart.  One meeting, the group leader informed everyone that he was leaving the church and moving in with his boyfriend.  Several others expressed similar feelings.  That was pretty much the end of the group.  A few years later, a couple asked me if I would be willing to help start the group again.  I agreed to do what I could and support them in their efforts.  But they could never get anyone else to attend.  I think guys began to realize that this just wasn't going to work.  I have kept touch with some of the members of that original group,  I still hear from them occasionally.  All but one has left the church. He is still one of my closest friends.

[Mystery Meat]

7 minutes ago, california boy said:

When I returned from my mission I met with my bishop and stake president.  It was easy serving a mission and I loved the experience.  The next part of my life seemed way more unsure.   I was trying to figure out exactly what God wanted me to do.  They both promised me that if I married a woman, then my attraction to men would disappear and I would be healed from this affliction.  I specifically asked them if that was true, because I had to know for sure that would happen in order to make such a leap of faith.  They both assured me that it was and that God wanted me to have a happy and healthy life.  Trust God, and He would heal me.

It was a common promise made to gay men during that time.  I don't know if it came from higher up, but it seemed to be a consistent policy.  I have talked to many gay men who were made the exact same promise.  I used to go to Evergreen on a weekly basis when I was trying to deal with this issue. (it was a support group for gay men dealing with this issue similar to the drug addiction program.  I am sure you can Google it if you want more information on Evergreen.) All of the gay guys that attended were told a similar thing.  All were married except on guy who had already divorced.  I also would travel to SLC each year for the annual conference.  We would hear similar talks about how you could walk away from having same sex attraction.  When divorce rates continued to skyrocketed in these types of marriages, the church backed off on this promise.  A new police was instituted.  Marriage was not to be viewed as therapy.  The promise was no longer given.

As a side note, the Evergreen group that I attended in the Bay Area fell completely apart.  One meeting, the group leader informed everyone that he was leaving the church and moving in with his boyfriend.  Several others expressed similar feelings.  That was pretty much the end of the group.  A few years later, a couple asked me if I would be willing to help start the group again.  I agreed to do what I could and support them in their efforts.  But they could never get anyone else to attend.  I think guys began to realize that this just wasn't going to work.  I have kept touch with some of the members of that original group,  I still hear from them occasionally.  All but one has left the church. He is still one of my closest friends.

Thank you for sharing. I have no idea if it was Church policy at the time to make such a promise but I have yet to see conclusive evidence that it was. I understand why you can have the trust issues with the Church that you do.

[Gray]

26 minutes ago, Mystery Meat said:

Thank you for sharing. I have no idea if it was Church policy at the time to make such a promise but I have yet to see conclusive evidence that it was. I understand why you can have the trust issues with the Church that you do.

 

http://mormonsandgays.org/

Quote

Unlike in times past, the Church does not necessarily advise those with same-sex attraction to marry those of the opposite sex.

 

[rockpond]

39 minutes ago, Mystery Meat said:

Thank you for sharing. I have no idea if it was Church policy at the time to make such a promise but I have yet to see conclusive evidence that it was. I understand why you can have the trust issues with the Church that you do.

I don't know if it was a documented "policy" but there are countless testimonials similar to CB's. 

And as long as the doctrine forces a choice between celibacy and man/woman marriage, we'll continue to see mixed orientation marriages among church members.  We just had a divorce in my ward of a couple where the gay husband just couldn't make it work anymore. 

Though the church finally backed away from the promises made to CB, they have not, to my knowledge, ever apologized for all the problems caused by counsel and/or teachings that led to mixed orientation marriages. 

[rockpond]

1 hour ago, Mystery Meat said:

No it is not muddled. It is clear. The Plan of Happiness is available to all, gay or straight. One does not need to be married in this life to be a full participant in it. Saying that, does not minimize the importance of man/woman marriage in the Plan. All will be given a fair shake. If a LGBT cannot have a marriage in the here and now, that in no way prevents them from full participation in the Plan of Salvation. A sixty year old never married heterosexual is likewise a full participant. 

However, your refusal to respond to the following is telling and is all I need to know:

 

I wasn't trying to dodge the question -- just trying to stay on topic.  But I'll respond:

I think that the church should accept SSM but I realize it would likely take a revelation to do that (and undo previous teachings).  I can say this because I have a firm testimony, through the same spirit that has testified to me of the truthfulness of the gospel, that God does accept same gender marriages for his homosexual children. 

Should they minimize the importance of man/woman marriage?  No, not for OSA members.  Although we do need to do a better job of ministering to our singles, IMO. 

To the extent that the church continues to teach that man/woman marriage is central to the plan (and SSM is apostasy) we will continue to push our gay youth to the fringes.  They will continue to leave the church.  And we will all suffer for it. 

[Storm Rider]

2 hours ago, california boy said:

Thanks Storm for taking the time to write this.  Maybe I could take a minute and clear up a few misconceptions you have about me.  I don't have a problem with the church requiring celibacy of gay members.  I was celibate and lived the law of chastity just like most Momons before I married.  But the reason I could do that is the promise that I could be with someone I loved and cared for throughout eternity.  And even though I didn't have those feelings when I married, I was promised that my attraction to men would be fixed and I too could fall in love with a woman and be together throughout eternity.  Does that clear up anything for you?

So what went wrong.  Well of course, the biggest thing that went wrong is that it was all based on a lie.  Being married to a woman did not make me straight and did not allow me to fall in love with a woman.  So all of the sudden the REASON for being celibate evaporated.  Now an entirely different story was given me.  Yes you will be gay, but you will NEVER fall in love, NEVER have a companion that you emotionally connect with in this life.  OK, I understand.  So what is promised me if I make that sacrifice????

Well, when you die, THEN you will want to be with a woman for eternity.  All the sudden, the promise that may sound amazing if I was straight, sounds like living hell for eternity.  Do you think I should trust church leaders this time around when the are promising me the EXACT same thing that they did when I was 20 which proved to be totally false???  And do you really think that being with a woman for eternity sounds at all appealing to me?

This isn't about celibacy.  It isn't even about not wanting to do God's will.  It is about a complete lack of trust that the church leaders have any clue as to what God wants someone who is gay to do in this earth life.  It is about a complete lack of trust that those leaders have any idea what will happen when someone is gay dies, and how God will judge them.  And for some strange reason, I, like God, think it is not good for man to be alone.  And the PROOF to me is how much more happy I am and how rich my life is, and how blessed I feel since I met a partner I can share this life with and deeply love like humans are prone to do for some reason.

And just one more thing.  I don't feel like a victim at all.  I don't feel like I have a heavy burden to carry at all.  In fact, I know how lucky I am to have the life I have.  It feels so much better trusting God and his judgement rather than leaders of the church who do not know the will of God, and are making a promise they really don't know if it is true any more than the promise give to me when I was 20. 

I honestly enjoy our interactions; thank you.  

A few thoughts.  In my mind I lived the law of chastity because I was not married.  As a single individual I was willing to obey rather than follow my own passions.  I viewed any exercise or abuse of our procreative powers before marriage to violate my desire to live a life of righteousness.  There was not a gender focus for me; would I find someone that I loved and they loved me?  If I found that person than we would have a family.  

You consistently sexualize eternity - you or I will either be straight or gay for eternity.  This perplexes me and it does not represent my vision of heaven or Exaltation.  To be in union with God, to be one with him, is to absorb and reflect his love, compassion, and understanding of others.  All of my weaknesses, my imperfections will be taken away and I will be the individual God has always desired me to be.  I will no longer have the plenitude of weaknesses, passions, but I will have a perfect union of both corporal body and spirit through becoming with Jesus.  Will I be straight or gay - I will be neither - I will be whole; I will be whoever God has designed or created me to be.

I agree, this is not about celibacy; it is not about love of anything mortal.  It is only about being a disciple of Jesus Christ.  Am I willing to lose myself, sacrifice my being, my individuality, for the Savior?  Will I accept him as my Master or not?  Does this mean I am gay or straight?  It is not a question - I will follow the Savior and do what he wants me to do.  

The Church is a repository of truth; however, that truth has little value unless we find it ourselves.  Will I go into the lion's den?  Will I go to Nineveh? Will I give my two mites as the widow did?  Will I find a confirmation of truth through the Holy Spirit?  At what cost will I strive to find truth?  The point at which we cease to pursue truth is the line at which we say, "God, I will come this far, but no farther."  We have to recognize that line, because we cannot then accuse God of not leading us into all truth when we stop seeking it.

I still believe that God speaks to all people in all nations giving them the truth he desires.  I think we move into paths of truth and at times we move to the margins.  It all revolves around what degree of truth we are willing to live truth today.  We are never static in our discipleship.  We move forward and fall back - these actions are meaningless.  What is vital is that we have a sincere desire to follow the Savior and repent of our sins.  Are we willing to take upon ourselves his name this week?  If so, then we are his and he is our Master.  

You are not a victim; none of us are.  We are humans with a propensity for overwhelming weakness with shining moments of strength and courage.  I don't think anyone should seek to accept the prophets and apostles words carte blanche.  We must stand on our own testimony and relationship with God.  I have never done well with those members or leader who think that I need to follow blindly - I reject that concept as false and unhealthy.  Always, the better course is to know for ourselves.  

[california boy]

11 hours ago, Storm Rider said:

I honestly enjoy our interactions; thank you.  

A few thoughts.  In my mind I lived the law of chastity because I was not married.  As a single individual I was willing to obey rather than follow my own passions.  I viewed any exercise or abuse of our procreative powers before marriage to violate my desire to live a life of righteousness.  There was not a gender focus for me; would I find someone that I loved and they loved me?  If I found that person than we would have a family.  

You consistently sexualize eternity - you or I will either be straight or gay for eternity.  This perplexes me and it does not represent my vision of heaven or Exaltation.  To be in union with God, to be one with him, is to absorb and reflect his love, compassion, and understanding of others.  All of my weaknesses, my imperfections will be taken away and I will be the individual God has always desired me to be.  I will no longer have the plenitude of weaknesses, passions, but I will have a perfect union of both corporal body and spirit through becoming with Jesus.  Will I be straight or gay - I will be neither - I will be whole; I will be whoever God has designed or created me to be.

I agree, this is not about celibacy; it is not about love of anything mortal.  It is only about being a disciple of Jesus Christ.  Am I willing to lose myself, sacrifice my being, my individuality, for the Savior?  Will I accept him as my Master or not?  Does this mean I am gay or straight?  It is not a question - I will follow the Savior and do what he wants me to do.  

The Church is a repository of truth; however, that truth has little value unless we find it ourselves.  Will I go into the lion's den?  Will I go to Nineveh? Will I give my two mites as the widow did?  Will I find a confirmation of truth through the Holy Spirit?  At what cost will I strive to find truth?  The point at which we cease to pursue truth is the line at which we say, "God, I will come this far, but no farther."  We have to recognize that line, because we cannot then accuse God of not leading us into all truth when we stop seeking it.

I still believe that God speaks to all people in all nations giving them the truth he desires.  I think we move into paths of truth and at times we move to the margins.  It all revolves around what degree of truth we are willing to live truth today.  We are never static in our discipleship.  We move forward and fall back - these actions are meaningless.  What is vital is that we have a sincere desire to follow the Savior and repent of our sins.  Are we willing to take upon ourselves his name this week?  If so, then we are his and he is our Master.  

You are not a victim; none of us are.  We are humans with a propensity for overwhelming weakness with shining moments of strength and courage.  I don't think anyone should seek to accept the prophets and apostles words carte blanche.  We must stand on our own testimony and relationship with God.  I have never done well with those members or leader who think that I need to follow blindly - I reject that concept as false and unhealthy.  Always, the better course is to know for ourselves.  

I admire your faith.  I once felt like you do.  The church taught me to not trust the promises leaders give.  They are now making the exact same promise again.  Simply put, I don't believe for a moment they know the will of God or the plan God has for his gay children.  Given the amount of harm their first broken and false promise caused in my life as well as my families, I am unwilling to bite the second time.  I think you can understand that if you try. 

[Storm Rider]

8 hours ago, california boy said:

I admire your faith.  I once felt like you do.  The church taught me to not trust the promises leaders give.  They are now making the exact same promise again.  Simply put, I don't believe for a moment they know the will of God or the plan God has for his gay children.  Given the amount of harm their first broken and false promise caused in my life as well as my families, I am unwilling to bite the second time.  I think you can understand that if you try. 

I don't need to try.  As a young man I had placed the leaders are pretty high on the "man of God" pole.  The only thing that could happen was for them to fall - and to no surprise they did.  I learned they are human.  At times I think they have existed in a way that is too separate from the rest of humanity and they have been treated with too much respect - humans in such situations begin to breathe their own ether.  (NOTE - I said "at times".  It is one of the challenges they have to deal with being called as prophets and apostles).  

When the scripture tells me to not put my faith in the arm of flesh I interpreted that to mean all flesh - not simply carnal man.  These men were called to serve; they were not called because they were perfect.  I think some of them are spiritual giants and I think others are just good administrators.  They each fill a role to which they were called.  I don't think for a moment that they are the most qualified, most spiritual of all the humans on earth.  However, I do believe they were called of God and they are his chosen vessels.  I am just thankful I am not one of them or of any leadership capacity at present.  

Faith is between you and our Father in Heaven not anyone other human.  My faith is centered on God, his Son, and the Holy Ghost.  Prophets and apostles are leaders of the telestial organization we recognize as the Church.  They are not my intermediary to God.  I listen to them, enjoy many of them....and don't enjoy some of them.  For example, I have never appreciated President Monson.  It is a personal thing and has nothing to do with my recognition of him as the prophet of the Church.

I wish that God would speak to this issue of his children that are attracted to other members of the same sex.  I wish that God would speak about why some of his children are transgendered and are so filled with confusion about who or what they are.  I wish God would speak to why some people have been so persecuted at different periods in history.  I wish that God would explain how some of his children experience genocide.  I wish that God would do a lot of things and I have talked to him about that.  What I get is that he is God and his ways are not my ways.  I must learn to stand on the truths he has given me and in time all things will be revealed whether in this life or the next.  

I believe the reason the leadership has not addressed this in a revelatory fashion is that God has yet to speak on this issue.  Until he does, I will believe and follow Jesus Christ and do the best I can, continue to fall short, repent, repent some more, and try again.  That is what we are supposed to do.  We must not ever stop.

[california boy]

3 hours ago, Storm Rider said:

I don't need to try.  As a young man I had placed the leaders are pretty high on the "man of God" pole.  The only thing that could happen was for them to fall - and to no surprise they did.  I learned they are human.  At times I think they have existed in a way that is too separate from the rest of humanity and they have been treated with too much respect - humans in such situations begin to breathe their own ether.  (NOTE - I said "at times".  It is one of the challenges they have to deal with being called as prophets and apostles).  

When the scripture tells me to not put my faith in the arm of flesh I interpreted that to mean all flesh - not simply carnal man.  These men were called to serve; they were not called because they were perfect.  I think some of them are spiritual giants and I think others are just good administrators.  They each fill a role to which they were called.  I don't think for a moment that they are the most qualified, most spiritual of all the humans on earth.  However, I do believe they were called of God and they are his chosen vessels.  I am just thankful I am not one of them or of any leadership capacity at present.  

Faith is between you and our Father in Heaven not anyone other human.  My faith is centered on God, his Son, and the Holy Ghost.  Prophets and apostles are leaders of the telestial organization we recognize as the Church.  They are not my intermediary to God.  I listen to them, enjoy many of them....and don't enjoy some of them.  For example, I have never appreciated President Monson.  It is a personal thing and has nothing to do with my recognition of him as the prophet of the Church.

I wish that God would speak to this issue of his children that are attracted to other members of the same sex.  I wish that God would speak about why some of his children are transgendered and are so filled with confusion about who or what they are.  I wish God would speak to why some people have been so persecuted at different periods in history.  I wish that God would explain how some of his children experience genocide.  I wish that God would do a lot of things and I have talked to him about that.  What I get is that he is God and his ways are not my ways.  I must learn to stand on the truths he has given me and in time all things will be revealed whether in this life or the next.  

I believe the reason the leadership has not addressed this in a revelatory fashion is that God has yet to speak on this issue.  Until he does, I will believe and follow Jesus Christ and do the best I can, continue to fall short, repent, repent some more, and try again.  That is what we are supposed to do.  We must not ever stop.

I couldn't agree with you more.  I think that is why I have such peace in my life compared to when I was so involved in the church.  I have shifted my faith away from the church and towards God.  He knows  my heart.  He knows my wants and desires.  And I feel he has blessed me for my faith.  Maybe that is the reason I am gay.  God wanted me to find my own path and knew I was strong enough to not have to rely on men who do the guessing of God's will as if their opinions have more authority.  While I think they are well meaning, I don't think they have any extra insight into what I need in my life to return to God.  

[Storm Rider]

3 hours ago, california boy said:

I couldn't agree with you more.  I think that is why I have such peace in my life compared to when I was so involved in the church.  I have shifted my faith away from the church and towards God.  He knows  my heart.  He knows my wants and desires.  And I feel he has blessed me for my faith.  Maybe that is the reason I am gay.  God wanted me to find my own path and knew I was strong enough to not have to rely on men who do the guessing of God's will as if their opinions have more authority.  While I think they are well meaning, I don't think they have any extra insight into what I need in my life to return to God.  

The concern for each of us is why we are on the path we are on.  If God gives to each the degree of truth they are willing to live, what makes one person able to live many truths and another to live but few?  Why can some accept God the Father and yet not accept his Son or the Holy Spirit?  

Is the difference a willingness to accept or to live certain truths or is it something different?  A Calvinist would posit predestination and God saves only those who wants to be saved.  I reject that wholly and completely.  God loves each of his children equally and offers Exaltation to each and every one of them.  This teaching opens the door to a whole new perspective - the concept of "favor" or being "chosen" is reduced to dust..  The purpose of this life is to live and grow with the teachings we have been given.  The sin, the thing that stops our growth is when we reject that which we know to be true in favor of something else less.  

I am careful to limit what I will learn or not learn from others.  Closing off sources that are recognized as being God's servants.  It is not that everything they say is true or that they are not human, it means that when God does speak he will use his servants.

Lastly, and it has more to do with my own criticism of every Protestant church, if not all Christian churches, is that they have no authority and have limited what they can do.  For an individual who knows the value of priesthood authority, I can certainly learn from them, but they offer very little as an church.  Absolutely can be a social organization and bible study groups, but they have no authority.  It is my pet complaint.  

[CV75]

On 6/17/2016 at 2:45 PM, rockpond said:

I wasn't trying to dodge the question -- just trying to stay on topic.  But I'll respond:

I think that the church should accept SSM but I realize it would likely take a revelation to do that (and undo previous teachings).  I can say this because I have a firm testimony, through the same spirit that has testified to me of the truthfulness of the gospel, that God does accept same gender marriages for his homosexual children. 

Should they minimize the importance of man/woman marriage?  No, not for OSA members.  Although we do need to do a better job of ministering to our singles, IMO. 

To the extent that the church continues to teach that man/woman marriage is central to the plan (and SSM is apostasy) we will continue to push our gay youth to the fringes.  They will continue to leave the church.  And we will all suffer for it. 

I do not agree that it is the Holy Spirit, and believe it is such testimony that pushes the struggling to the fringes, because it is flattering to console those with undeveloped frontal lobes with the false belief that the law should be altered.

[california boy]

11 hours ago, CV75 said:

I do not agree that it is the Holy Spirit, and believe it is such testimony that pushes the struggling to the fringes, because it is flattering to console those with undeveloped frontal lobes with the false belief that the law should be altered.

Interesting judgement.  Do you think the Holy Spirit ever says anything to individuals that is contrary to current church doctrine??

[CV75]

1 hour ago, california boy said:

Interesting judgement.  Do you think the Holy Spirit ever says anything to individuals that is contrary to current church doctrine??

It's not a matter of judgement but of agreement as to whether it is of the Holy Spirit (based on my assessment of the fruits thereof).

 

Who knows what people receive privately from the Holy Spirit and decide to keep to themselves. Nephi killed Laban on the basis of individual instruction from the Spirit and shared the revealed rationale for all the world to know. Alma hid from the king and preached his testimony, and Abinadi preached his testimony in disguise, but the message was still public to all they were called to serve, and most importantly consistent with the word of the Lord.

 

When a testimony is shared anonymously on a message board and it contradicts the revealed word of the Lord, I do not agree that it is of the Holy Spirit. I do not agree that such a testimony helps  the possessor properly minister to others, rather it frustrates him. Of course if one were to share such a testimony openly, it would probably result in some kind of correction.