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flameburns623

GLBT+ Protest planned for Fast Sunday?

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34 minutes ago, flameburns623 said:

Not fond of posting this. I won't be discussing the topic. But it's news. 

http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/rainbow-mormon-initiative_b_10110474.html

A Ward house is no place for any protest, passive or otherwise. There are just lines that should not be crossed. I'll say no more either. 

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1 hour ago, Pa Pa said:

A Ward house is no place for any protest, passive or otherwise. There are just lines that should not be crossed. I'll say no more either. 

Nonetheless, fast & testimony meetings are sometimes the scene of political diatribes and occasional fisticuffs.  Some members bring guns to sacrament meeting, and sometimes arrests are made there.  It is illegal to disturb religious meetings in virtually every jurisdiction, and an arrestable offense.

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I actually don't have a problem with the initial main premise: 

Quote

On June 5, 2016, a group of Mormons who are allies of their LGBT+ brothers and sisters will be launching an initiative to show their support and love by wearing rainbow ribbons to church (or wearing them on Sundays if they do not attend) and posting photos of themselves online. The Rainbow Mormon Initiative also encourages those who wish to participate to knit or crochet scarves, hats, or blankets to donate to Ogden Youth Futures, a shelter for homeless LGBT+ teens in northern Utah.

 

It's showing outreach and kindness to those who may feel alienated in church. It's also taking care of a subset of the homeless population. Loving others and taking care of the needy are fine and admirable and exactly what the scriptures teach us to do. To me this part, by itself is not at all political. It's promoting basic human dignity 

In fact up until this point I was just fine with it insomuch that I thought I would do so as well. It's some of the things past the main premise that I'm not so sure of, may not agree with entirely, and ergo probably won't do it . There are a lot of things that we don't talk about in church beyond a mild brushing: politics and race/culture are 2 that come up in my mind. LGBT has also come up. Like the other 2 when it does I'm tense at first because I get nervous about what someone may say and I don't want us to go into vast detail about it to say the least. I've knocked heads about these issues in my spare time, and had plenty of frank dialogues about all of them in groups. But I'm not super apt for the 3hr church meeting to be another consistent avenue for this. Other meetings, sure. If there was a fireside on LDS/LGBT relations I would be there in a heartbeat.

 

With luv,

BD

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I don't think anyone should have a problem with this.  First of all, it just represents a level of support.  What else can one do?  Certainly, one could never voice at a pulpit..but if it gives a certain quiet voice to feelings, it is just reaching out and sharing how they feel.  Hopefully these rainbows will end the storm in and out of the church with families who love their gay children.

Edited by Jeanne

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I'd be happy to wear rainbow colors to church to let lgbt members know that they are welcome in congregation and loved by Heavenly Parents and need not commit suicide and shouldn't be discriminated against in employment or housing and that they shouldn't be thrown out of their FOO because they are attracted to their own sex (or even because want to live as a gender different from a biological one).

But I can't wear them in this case because it is tied to a protest of church policy (that is regularly mis-described in the media as in the posted blog post).  

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13 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Nonetheless, fast & testimony meetings are sometimes the scene of political diatribes and occasional fisticuffs.  Some members bring guns to sacrament meeting, and sometimes arrests are made there.  It is illegal to disturb religious meetings in virtually every jurisdiction, and an arrestable offense.

My comment is that such things should happen. So, are you agreeing with me or pointing out that such things happen so this should be OK? 

 

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7 hours ago, Pa Pa said:

My comment is that such things should happen. So, are you agreeing with me or pointing out that such things happen so this should be OK? 

I think you meant that such things shouldn't happen, and I agree with that.

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http://mormonstories.org/mama-dragons-and-the-mama-dragon-story-project/

Pa Pa, after listening to this podcast, you might want to.  Of course, you have a gay daughter, so it's not like you don't understand the need to support these men and women.  I think the church will be fine with it!

Saw this image of the Friend recently on another board.  It has a little girl with a rainbow clip in her hair.  And other issues have in the past I believe, had similar images.  I wonder if we have a gay supporter on the magazine's staff or the artist that paints for the mag! ;)

friend-2016-jun.jpg

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I don't appreciate people who wear political pins in church that announce their chosen candidate.  I don't like it when they wear pins or any emblem in support of political parties.  I don't like it when they do the same thing for right to life or choice in church meetings.  

To me a church meeting, particularly a Sacrament meeting, is about one thing and that is focusing on Jesus Christ and renewing our covenant to be his disciple.  Keep your social agendas and politics outside of a church meeting.    

As I write this I acknowledge that I have never been offended by someone who wears a military uniform in church or even a boy scout uniform.  

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35 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

I don't appreciate people who wear political pins in church that announce their chosen candidate.  I don't like it when they wear pins or any emblem in support of political parties.  I don't like it when they do the same thing for right to life or choice in church meetings.  

To me a church meeting, particularly a Sacrament meeting, is about one thing and that is focusing on Jesus Christ and renewing our covenant to be his disciple.  Keep your social agendas and politics outside of a church meeting.    

As I write this I acknowledge that I have never been offended by someone who wears a military uniform in church or even a boy scout uniform.  

How is it a political move?  I think it just shows the parents in our wards that we love our gay members.  They don't feel the love nor do their families.  Ask a gay Mormon or their family, you'll get your answer then.  It's improved dramatically over the years, which is awesome but still needs work.  Again, how is this political, when SSM is not even an issue anymore?  

Wearing rainbow colors only creates conversation IMO, so not a protest in my eyes.


C/P from the church's website, http://www.mormonsandgays.org/.  

Adam – This is a dialogue that I feel very passionately about and one that I think we’re not use to having in the Church. It’s a dialogue that needs to come from a place of understanding and empathy rather than fear and misunderstanding.

Barry – The first thing that comes to my mind is to listen. I think so often … this is a highly charged issue. People come into this conversation with the whole set of preconceived ideas and notions about what this issue is supposed to mean. Or what they think it means. And more often than not, the issues and the notions and the beliefs that we have don’t necessarily match the experiences that people have.

Greg – Don’t lecture. Don’t preach. Don’t tell either of my children why they’re wrong, why their positions are wrong because that is going to do absolutely nothing more than push them further away. And it’s hard to have a conversation with someone that is going away from you.

Jackie – I think it’s more loving that I tell them the truth, and I’m open, and I’m able to communicate what I feel.

Gaylene – To just be honest. Let them share, let them be open. Let them be with you, let them come. Let them be where you are. I think the absolute worst thing we can do is to exclude them or to make them feel uncomfortable.

Kevin – Real lived experience is vital to connecting with other people and creating a relationship where discourse or even connecting and understanding can take place. I’ve been on both sides of that fence where people insist that I am just in denial about what I am really experiencing because I choose to stay true to my beliefs and live within a value system. But I also have people within the Church make judgments that it feels like I just need to choose, and change my mind, snap out of it. It’s hard when you feel that your experience is negated or in some cases outright denied.

John – I can speak to the fear of wanting to tell other people and not being able to because they are afraid of losing their friends, losing their relationships, being castigated. If you have a family who is very religious and they’re afraid that if they tell their family they’ll lose your family. We actually do need to do the exactly opposite and reach out in love.

Jana – Once I was able to start talking about it, and sharing about it, I became more comfortable with it. But in that opposite aspect inside of me, which now I can see that it was the spirit. As I started to share my spirit was starting to say ‘Jana, you are not doing something right.’ I realized that the Lord was starting to open up my heart and helping me to open up even the abuse and the feelings so that I could start healing.

Rhonda – I think you just have to open your mouth, and I think you just have to be really honest.

Barry – But not just listen and hear the words but listen with an open heart, to set aside notions to set aside preconceived ideas and to really be present with one another, to really listen to one another in a way that’s heartfelt, and soulful, and open. It’s the only way to begin and the only way to carry on a conversation of this nature.

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Tacenda, I was not saying it was political.  I have seen members in the past wear pins to church supporting a specific candidate in a political race.  I did not appreciate it and thought it was in poor taste.  Please do not read something into my message that is not there.  

My niece lived in a lesbian relationship for over ten years.  She has now been dating men for the last seven years.  I grew up with a great fellow, a LDS, who was gay.  He eventually moved out to San Francisco to live a more open life and was killed some thirty years ago.  A dear friend in college left his wife after having six children and has been living with men in various relationships for some time.  My best companion on my mission is gay.  I think I have a pretty good understanding of gay individuals.

I understand that individuals do not feel loved, appreciated, or understood.  It does not matter if they are gay, straight, black, brown, fat, young, old - if they are human you will find these feelings.  I don't think gay people are special or any different than any other human.

Sacrament meeting, all church meetings, should not be used to push political parties, candidates, or social agendas.  I don't like it when anyone does it.  When I attend church I am trying to focus on learning to be a better child of God.  I join with all others in that same pursuit in a communal demonstration to God that we are seeking to serve and fulfill his will.  

Keep personal agendas for other environments and gatherings.  

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42 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

Tacenda, I was not saying it was political.  I have seen members in the past wear pins to church supporting a specific candidate in a political race.  I did not appreciate it and thought it was in poor taste.  Please do not read something into my message that is not there.  

My niece lived in a lesbian relationship for over ten years.  She has now been dating men for the last seven years.  I grew up with a great fellow, a LDS, who was gay.  He eventually moved out to San Francisco to live a more open life and was killed some thirty years ago.  A dear friend in college left his wife after having six children and has been living with men in various relationships for some time.  My best companion on my mission is gay.  I think I have a pretty good understanding of gay individuals.

I understand that individuals do not feel loved, appreciated, or understood.  It does not matter if they are gay, straight, black, brown, fat, young, old - if they are human you will find these feelings.  I don't think gay people are special or any different than any other human.

Sacrament meeting, all church meetings, should not be used to push political parties, candidates, or social agendas.  I don't like it when anyone does it.  When I attend church I am trying to focus on learning to be a better child of God.  I join with all others in that same pursuit in a communal demonstration to God that we are seeking to serve and fulfill his will.  

Keep personal agendas for other environments and gatherings.  

Sorry, didn't mean to put words in your mouth.  

I just don't see a problem, if people want to show outwardly that they are LGBT friendly.  Even if it helps just one person.  Several years ago, my son's young men's class had a gay young man.  He hadn't come out, but they somehow knew he was gay.  He may have reached out to one of them, I don't know the full story.  Anyhow, word spread, and ever since...I've seen his parents and this young man, keep their distance from ward members.  If I could, and maybe I will, I need to apologize for anything I might have done, or not done, to make them feel in any way shunned.  

I don't look at this as pushing a social agenda, I see that it's a crucial reaching out time.  Crucial, to let these members of our church know they are loved no matter what their sexual persuasion may be.  I'm including Transgenders also.  For years society has treated them inhumanely, and it's time that those of us that felt like they were afraid to show support, can do so now. 

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9 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Sorry, didn't mean to put words in your mouth.  

I just don't see a problem, if people want to show outwardly that they are LGBT friendly.  Even if it helps just one person.  Several years ago, my son's young men's class had a gay young man.  He hadn't come out, but they somehow knew he was gay.  He may have reached out to one of them, I don't know the full story.  Anyhow, word spread, and ever since...I've seen his parents and this young man, keep their distance from ward members.  If I could, and maybe I will, I need to apologize for anything I might have done, or not done, to make them feel in any way shunned.  

I don't look at this as pushing a social agenda, I see that it's a crucial reaching out time.  Crucial, to let these members of our church know they are loved no matter what their sexual persuasion may be.  I'm including Transgenders also.  For years society has treated them inhumanely, and it's time that those of us that felt like they were afraid to show support, can do so now. 

It would be a great experience for both you and the parents and the young man if you took the time to talk to him.  That will do far more than wearing a lapel rainbow pin to extend a hand of fellowship and letting each of them know you care about them.

This all smacks of special groups, sacred cows, etc.  More often than not I don't support such efforts.  It is the main reason I don't like the Black Lives Matter movement.  I don't think we should value a black life any more than we do the live of a Latino, Asian, or anyone else.  If we are going to teach something, then let us teach love towards all.  Let us follow you own example that if we feel we have offended someone then tell them you are sorry, that you feel bad and want them to know you care.  

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dbl post

Edited by Tacenda

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12 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

It would be a great experience for both you and the parents and the young man if you took the time to talk to him.  That will do far more than wearing a lapel rainbow pin to extend a hand of fellowship and letting each of them know you care about them.

This all smacks of special groups, sacred cows, etc.  More often than not I don't support such efforts.  It is the main reason I don't like the Black Lives Matter movement.  I don't think we should value a black life any more than we do the live of a Latino, Asian, or anyone else.  If we are going to teach something, then let us teach love towards all.  Let us follow you own example that if we feel we have offended someone then tell them you are sorry, that you feel bad and want them to know you care.  

Still disagree about wearing some rainbow colors, no biggie. 

This happened several years ago, but I might take you up on your offer.  Just how to do that without offending in another way.  I didn't say or do anything that would hurt this family, I just didn't do anything.  But now is my chance.

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10 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Still disagree about wearing some rainbow colors, no biggie. 

This happened several years ago, but I might take you up on your offer.  Just how to do that without offending in another way.  I didn't say or do anything that would hurt this family, I just didn't do anything.  But now is my chance.

I like the way you worded it the first time best, "I need to apologize for anything I might have done, or not done, to make them feel in any way shunned."  The way you worded that had a real impact to me.  It is questioning if I as a human did or did not do something that caused another pain or to sense that I did not care for them as a brother and/or sister.  

It is wonderful how the Spirit moves people to do things at certain times.  The Holy Ghost allows us to sense the feelings of others more clearly and touches us to reach out to others in pain.  Whether the child is gay, on drugs, or having a really hard time - the cause or topic is irrelevant - it is the fact that the Holy Spirit will use you to reach out.  They may not care or respond poorly to your expression of Christ-like love, but that too is irrelevant.  What is vital is that you are following his prompting to act.

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3 hours ago, Storm Rider said:

I don't appreciate people who wear political pins in church that announce their chosen candidate.  I don't like it when they wear pins or any emblem in support of political parties.  I don't like it when they do the same thing for right to life or choice in church meetings.  

To me a church meeting, particularly a Sacrament meeting, is about one thing and that is focusing on Jesus Christ and renewing our covenant to be his disciple.  Keep your social agendas and politics outside of a church meeting.    

As I write this I acknowledge that I have never been offended by someone who wears a military uniform in church or even a boy scout uniform.  

How about an American flag in a lapel?  

It is a sad commentary that showing support and love to a group that feels marginalized by both the church and society in general becomes a social and political statement.  Is showing love and concern for the poor also a social agenda and political statement?  Is showing love and concern for tax collectors and prostitutes a social agenda as well?  

I am not surprised by your comment.  But, if the objective of wearing a rainbow ribbon is to show love and concern for those that feel ostracized by the church, is it really such a bad thing.  

Maybe the whole idea is a bad idea.  But maybe it comes from a place of love.  That is never a bad thing is it????

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14 minutes ago, california boy said:

How about an American flag in a lapel?  

It is a sad commentary that showing support and love to a group that feels marginalized by both the church and society in general becomes a social and political statement.  Is showing love and concern for the poor also a social agenda and political statement?  Is showing love and concern for tax collectors and prostitutes a social agenda as well?  

I am not surprised by your comment.  But, if the objective of wearing a rainbow ribbon is to show love and concern for those that feel ostracized by the church, is it really such a bad thing.  

Maybe the whole idea is a bad idea.  But maybe it comes from a place of love.  That is never a bad thing is it????

Bingo!

And brings to mind, the pink ribbon for breast cancer awareness.  IMO, this is bringing awareness, there is an epidemic amount of suicide from these individuals, that should be enough right there.

I have a gay nephew, that attempted suicide and his parents didn't know if he'd be dead or alive each day they went to his room. 

 

Edited by Tacenda

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49 minutes ago, california boy said:

How about an American flag in a lapel?  

It is a sad commentary that showing support and love to a group that feels marginalized by both the church and society in general becomes a social and political statement.  Is showing love and concern for the poor also a social agenda and political statement?  Is showing love and concern for tax collectors and prostitutes a social agenda as well?  

I am not surprised by your comment.  But, if the objective of wearing a rainbow ribbon is to show love and concern for those that feel ostracized by the church, is it really such a bad thing.  

Maybe the whole idea is a bad idea.  But maybe it comes from a place of love.  That is never a bad thing is it????

I don't wear one myself.  I have already admitted that I am not a purist by stating that I don't mind military uniforms or scouting uniforms being worn in church.  

It is a sad commentary when we can only demonstrate love to a small subset of humanity rather than all humanity.  It is a sad commentary when society dictates that we must value one small subset of people over everyone else.  

As I stated above, "I understand that individuals do not feel loved, appreciated, or understood.  It does not matter if they are gay, straight, black, brown, fat, young, old - if they are human you will find these feelings.  I don't think gay people are special or any different than any other human."  The issue is showing love to all.

Being Gay is the the new fad, the new "in" thing for everyone. They are celebrated from sea to shining sea in this nation.  No one else can be discussed, talked about, cared for, loved, or anything else.  What is wrong with loving all humanity?  Are gay people the only ones that don't feel loved, appreciated, wanted?  Of course not!  That is a load of poppycock that those with an agenda attempt to portray - to pull the heart strings - IN CHURCH no less.  

We all have our own pet peeves, pet topics, and causes.  I just don't think that Sacrament meeting is the place for "you" - the collective you as in all of us - should not push that agenda in church.  Don't tell me to vote for Trump, Bernie, or Hillary - I don't want anyone to tell me to vote for any special party in church; keep your social agendas for the office, for after work; and for picketing General Conference, City Hall, Town Meetings, or any other place that are made for such discussions.

Yes, I think it is a bad idea that comes from a good place.  I have no problems with those who want to express their love for any subset of humanity.  Put a flag out in front of your house, wear a rainbow pin to work, on the bus, on the airplane, anywhere that is appropriate to take such a stand,  Church is not one of those places. 

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I think this is fantastic... a great way to show support, especially to LGBT mormon youth who often feel alone in our congregations.  I applaud the effort.

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If people want to wear a rainbow tie to church, that doesn't bother me so much. It was the very last sentence that I didn't like.

"and about changing the Mormon church from within"

If they mean changing attitudes of members towards gays; OK.
If they mean trying to force changes in doctrines and policies. Not OK. 

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20 minutes ago, JAHS said:

If people want to wear a rainbow tie to church, that doesn't bother me so much. It was the very last sentence that I didn't like.

"and about changing the Mormon church from within"

If they mean changing attitudes of members towards gays; OK.
If they mean trying to force changes in doctrines and policies. Not OK. 

I think many of us believe that changing members' attitudes would help lead to changes in doctrine (through being open to further revelation) and policy.

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My problem is that the date was chosen in reference to the date the policy was put online (announced) so it puts a heavy focus on protesting the church policy and thus is pushing for change through social pressure, much more imo than just making a statement of awareness/support/love for a particular group.

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7 minutes ago, Calm said:

My problem is that the date was chosen in reference to the date the policy was put online (announced) so it puts a heavy focus on protesting the church policy and thus is pushing for change through social pressure, much more imo than just making a statement of awareness/support/love for a particular group.

OTOH, since the policy has been a source of pain for many members, it seems like an appropriate day to show support.

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