I'm Sorry, But I Really Love This Board

[Jeanne]

Just now, smac97 said:

Dunno.  To be honest, I don't know very much about you.

And in any event, I'd rather not personalize this thread.

Thanks,

-Smact

Gotcha.  I appreciate your honesty and not wanting to personalize.  I am an ex-mormon.  But I am not anti.  To me there is a big difference.

[Scott Lloyd]

22 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

I guess I've been around more people who use TBM as a catch-all insult than you have.

 

If someone calls me a "true-blue Mormon" or a "true, believing Mormon," or whatever TBM is supposed to abbreviate, and he intends it as an insult, I will wear his insult as a badge of honor.

Similarly, if I were truly anti-Mormon and someone called me that, I should think I would be inclined to wear it as a badge of honor.

[JLHPROF]

I was particularly bored a couple of days ago and entertained myself by googling my "screenname site:mormondialogue.org" and rereading some of my earliest conversations with people on this board.

I have to say, we have discussed everything and the kitchen sink at one time or another.  It was hard for me not to want to perform a bit of thread necromancy and restart a couple but I resisted

Fun exercise to do though if you are ever bored.

[smac97]

On 5/27/2016 at 0:08 PM, Jeanne said:

Gotcha.  I appreciate your honesty and not wanting to personalize.  I am an ex-mormon.  But I am not anti.  To me there is a big difference.

I also see a big difference between the two.  There is, of course, some overlap (Kate Kelly, call your office).  But I reject the notion that all former church members are "anti," or vice versa.

Thanks,

-Smac

[Ahab]

Just now, Jeanne said:

I am talking about those of us who have already left the church..those of us online here who are asking questions.

What I said still applies as much to you and everybody else who has any perspective to share.

Ask any question you want to ask.

Questions are great as springboards for discussions.

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, Ahab said:

I tried to take one away from him but the system wouldn't allow that.

Probably just another one of those bugs that I keep seeing and hearing about on this board.

You can only remove a rep point that you yourself have given someone.

Which is one of the few things I like about the newly upgraded software. I can't count the number of times I mistakenly awarded rep points with the old board software, and I had no recourse other than to say to the person, "Merry Christmas. I mistakenly gave you a rep point."

[Scott Lloyd]

8 minutes ago, smac97 said:

I also see a big difference between the two.  There is, of course, some overlap (Kate Kelly, call your office).  But I reject the notion that all former church members are "anti," or vice versa.

Thanks,

-Smac

Likewise, not all non-Mormons are anti-Mormons. Just like I'm non-Catholic, but I'm not anti-Catholic.

You would think this would be self-evident. But amazingly often, I encounter anti-Mormons who seem to be laboring under the impression that I think merely disbelieving in Mormonism makes one an anti-Mormon.

Edited May 27, 2016 by Scott Lloyd

[smac97]

On 5/27/2016 at 0:20 PM, Scott Lloyd said:

Likewise, not all non-Mormons are anti-Mormons. Just like I'm non-Catholic, but I'm not anti-Catholic.

You would think this would be self-evident. But amazingly often, I encounter anti-Mormons who seem to be laboring under the impression that I think merely disbelieving in Mormonism makes one an anti-Mormon.

Yep.  That's why I use "actively opposed" in my definition of "anti-Mormon."

Thanks,

-Smac

[Scott Lloyd]

46 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

I was particularly bored a couple of days ago and entertained myself by googling my "screenname site:mormondialogue.org" and rereading some of my earliest conversations with people on this board.

I have to say, we have discussed everything and the kitchen sink at one time or another.  It was hard for me not to want to perform a bit of thread necromancy and restart a couple but I resisted

Fun exercise to do though if you are ever bored.

Generally, when I've done that, I've been rather pleased to be reminded how well I have acquitted myself here.

It's like watching a beloved movie. You know how it's going to end, but it can be fun to see it play out.

I will read something someone has posted to me, and I will think to myself, "Hmm, Scott, how are you going to answer this one?" Then, maybe several posts later, I'll read the response post I made and think to myself, "Not bad, Scott. If it were someone else, I would award a rep point."

 

Edited May 27, 2016 by Scott Lloyd

[Ahab]

Just now, Scott Lloyd said:

Generally, when I've done that, I've been rather pleased to be reminded how well I have acquitted myself here.

It's like watching a beloved movie. You know how it's going to end, but it can be fun to see it play out.

I will read something someone has posted to me, and I will think to myself, "Hmm, Scott, how are you going to answer this one?" Then, maybe several posts later, I'll read the response post I made and think to myself, "Not bad, Scott."

Yeah I like to see that too, except that in my case instead of thinking to myself "Not bad, Scott" I think back and marvel at how God inspired me to respond in that situation. 

I actually think of myself as very stupid,  personally,  and yet I am often surprised... no, not surprised, marvelling... at how I am able to have intelligent thoughts now and then.

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, Jeanne said:

I have a question for the very faithful on this board.  Would you rather that some of us were just not online?

 

43 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Just those who show up for a day or two and flood the board with nonsense condemnations and page long scripture quotes of how we aren't "Christian".  Those guys need to stay away.  (We haven't had one for a while - aren't we past due for the next one? )

 

My theory is that the progmos are keeping them away.

Think about it: What's the point of coming on here to attack Mormonism when a swarm of progmos is already doing that very thing?

[jkwilliams]

25 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

If someone calls me a "true-blue Mormon" or a "true, believing Mormon," or whatever TBM is supposed to abbreviate, and he intends it as an insult, I will wear his insult as a badge of honor.

Similarly, if I were truly anti-Mormon and someone called me that, I should think I would be inclined to wear it as a badge of honor.

As I said, both have connotations that extend beyond the literal meaning, and I would have thought that a writer would understand that. If I use "TBM" on, say, reddit's exmormon channel, people will understand it as connoting, as Smac put it, insular and closed-minded, similar to the word "sheeple." Admittedly I despise the latter if nothing else but for it's smugness, but the sentiment is the same. Likewise, if I use the word anti-Mormon in an LDS setting, it connotes spittle-flecked Evangelicals screaming and waving garments outside general conference. 

That's why I don't use either term because they both have a lot of baggage. The irony is that I've been labeled both in my lifetime. Of course, every time someone has used that label on me it has been as an insult and a pejorative. So, I eschew loaded labels. Obviously, you feel differently, which is fine. Like I said, I'm glad for the clarification, particularly the association of those who don't like being called anti-Mormons with deception and Lucifer. Communication is always better when I know where others are coming from.

[Scott Lloyd]

If you would pardon a momentary thread derailment, all this talk about anti- has made me think of what I grew up believing is the longest word in the English language. I have since learned that there are longer words.

But the word I was acquainted with in my youth is antidisestablishmentarianism. I never knew the definition until much later. This is what Wikipedia says:

Quote

Antidisestablishmentarianism (ⁱ/ˌæn.ti.dɪs.ɪs.tæb.lɪʃ.mənˈtɛə.rɪə.nɪ.zᵊm/, ⁱ/ˌæn.taɪˌdɪs.ɛsˌtæb.lɪʃ.məntˈɛ.ri.ənˌɪ.zm/) is a political position that developed in 19th-century Britain in opposition to Liberal proposals for the disestablishment of the Church of England—meaning the removal of the Anglican Church's status as the state church of England, Ireland, and Wales. The establishment was maintained in England, but in Ireland the Church of Ireland (Anglican) was disestablished in 1871. In Wales, four Church of England dioceses were disestablished in 1920 and became the Church in Wales. (also known as separation of church and state) Antidisestablishmentarianism is also one of the longest non-scientific words. The word has also come by analogy to refer to any opposition to those who oppose the establishment, whether the government, in whole or part, or the established society.^[1]

Here, we get into the complication of double and triple negatives. An establishmentarian would be one who favors the establishment in question. A disestablishmentarian would be one who wants to nullify or discontinue the establishment. And an antidisestablishmentarian would be one who opposes the disestablishmentarians. And finally, antidisestablishmentarianism would be the state, quality or doctrine of the antidisestablishmentarians.

Incidentally, I have long prided myself on how effortlessly I can spell antidisestablishmentarianism.

Same with supercalifragilisticexpialidocious (though I'm not certain that is recognized as a real word).

 

[Scott Lloyd]

17 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

As I said, both have connotations that extend beyond the literal meaning, and I would have thought that a writer would understand that. If I use "TBM" on, say, reddit's exmormon channel, people will understand it as connoting, as Smac put it, insular and closed-minded, similar to the word "sheeple." Admittedly I despise the latter if nothing else but for it's smugness, but the sentiment is the same. Likewise, if I use the word anti-Mormon in an LDS setting, it connotes spittle-flecked Evangelicals screaming and waving garments outside general conference. 

That's why I don't use either term because they both have a lot of baggage. The irony is that I've been labeled both in my lifetime. Of course, every time someone has used that label on me it has been as an insult and a pejorative. So, I eschew loaded labels. Obviously, you feel differently, which is fine. Like I said, I'm glad for the clarification, particularly the association of those who don't like being called anti-Mormons with deception and Lucifer. Communication is always better when I know where others are coming from.

Anti-Mormons are very often deceptive, even when they don't think they are being deceptive. It's a rather common characteristic among them, probably because they feed off of one another, use the same talking points, refer to the same dogmatic distortions, fail to take cognizance of rebuttals, and so forth.

Edited May 27, 2016 by Scott Lloyd

[jkwilliams]

1 minute ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Anti-Mormons are very often deceptive, even when they don't think they are being deceptive. It's a rather common characteristic among them, probably because they feed off of one another, use the same talking points, refer to the same dogmatic distortions and so forth.

Like I said, I'm glad you clarified. Next time I hear that word from you, I'll know what you mean.

[Ahab]

Just now, Scott Lloyd said:

 

My theory is that the progmos are keeping them away.

Think about it: What's the point of coming on here to attack Mormonism when a swarm of progmos is already doing that very thing?

When people do what they do and the reason they do it is NOT because they are being paid money to do it then it's fairly safe to assume that the reason they do it is because they just like to do it or they feel that they must.

And it usually doesn't hurt that others like to do the same thing or that nobody is really stopping them from doing whatever they do.

But I think you were trying to be funny, so here is a smiley from me.

 

[Scott Lloyd]

6 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

Like I said, I'm glad you clarified. Next time I hear that word from you, I'll know what you mean.

I only use it when it applies. And I don't use it as often as you apparently think I do.

But next time, you might evaluate honestly whether it was appropriate.

[Garden Girl]

44 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

If someone calls me a "true-blue Mormon" or a "true, believing Mormon," or whatever TBM is supposed to abbreviate, and he intends it as an insult, I will wear his insult as a badge of honor.

Similarly, if I were truly anti-Mormon and someone called me that, I should think I would be inclined to wear it as a badge of honor.

I've read how TBM is perceived as being an insult... but to me it is and has been an honorable designation... and I am no lock-step sheepie running blindly along in the flock... as I hope the posters on this board can tell... I love being a strong Latter Day Saint woman... absolutely love it.

from the beach on a very busy Friday afternoon as visitors pour into our little city/town... Sunday at Church we'll have to set up every folding chair we have into the Cultural Hall. Our record attendance on this weekend a couple years ago was 540... as opposed to a normal small ward attendance of about 150.  

GG

[jkwilliams]

Just now, Scott Lloyd said:

I only use it when it applies. And I don't use it as often as you apparently think I do.

But next time, you might evaluate honestly whether it was appropriate.

I think the other issue is that anti-Mormon suggests that someone is prejudiced against Mormons as people. Some are, obviously, but most of the people who get slapped with that label are opposed to the church's teachings, not the members. That distinction probably doesn't mean much to some, but it does to me.

[jkwilliams]

5 minutes ago, Garden Girl said:

I've read how TBM is perceived as being an insult... but to me it is and has been an honorable designation... and I am no lock-step sheepie running blindly along in the flock... as I hope the posters on this board can tell... I love being a strong Latter Day Saint woman... absolutely love it.

from the beach on a very busy Friday afternoon as visitors pour into our little city/town... Sunday at Church we'll have to set up every folding chair we have into the Cultural Hall. Our record attendance on this weekend a couple years ago was 540... as opposed to a normal small ward attendance of about 150.  

GG

I understand that a lot of people wouldn't perceive it as an insult, but a lot of people do, and frankly, a lot of times it's said it is meant as an insult. The reason I don't use it is that I want to talk to people in as respectful a manner as possible, and using words that some people find offensive is a hindrance to such respectful conversation. Literally, "anti-Mormon" and "TBM" seem fairly descriptive and innocuous, but both have very strong connotations. Consider the phrase "trailer park." Descriptive? Yes. Loaded with connotations? Absolutely.

Glad you're enjoying the beach. Totally jealous here, where it's hot and humid, and we're 3 1/2 hours from the beach.

 

[Scott Lloyd]

1 minute ago, jkwilliams said:

I think the other issue is that anti-Mormon suggests that someone is prejudiced against Mormons as people. Some are, obviously, but most of the people who get slapped with that label are opposed to the church's teachings, not the members. That distinction probably doesn't mean much to some, but it does to me.

The term could just as easily apply to being opposed to the teachings of Mormonism as it does to being opposed to Mormons themselves. In fact, it usually does.

Incidentally, bear in mind that I have already said elsewhere that anti-Mormon does not necessarily imply dishonesty or discourtesy. Some can be courteous and apparently sincere -- albeit wrong and misguided -- in expressing their anti-Mormonism,

[Jeanne]

49 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

 

My theory is that the progmos are keeping them away.

Think about it: What's the point of coming on here to attack Mormonism when a swarm of progmos is already doing that very thing?

But..I don' want to do that.  I just want to understand better and to find some relative co-existence with my past.

[Jeanne]

If I go back and look at my old stuff on my profile..I find...edit..edit..edit...

[jkwilliams]

Just now, Scott Lloyd said:

The term could just as easily apply to being opposed to the teachings of Mormonism as it does to being opposed to Mormons themselves. In fact, it usually does.

Incidentally, bear in mind that I have already said elsewhere that anti-Mormon does not necessarily imply dishonesty or discourtesy. Some can be courteous and apparently sincere -- albeit wrong and misguided -- in expressing their anti-Mormonism,

No, it doesn't necessarily imply that, but it often connotes it. I'm a bit surprised that a writer is unconcerned about connotation and tone, especially when ostensibly trying to engage in persuasive discourse.

[jkwilliams]

4 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

But..I don' want to do that.  I just want to understand better and to find some relative co-existence with my past.

I can relate to that. I have often felt like I can't quite move forward until I understand where I was and why. Still working on it. My biggest problem is that feelings still get hurt on both sides in interactions with my LDS family, no matter how hard I try to stay away from hot-button topics. Most of the time, I just shut up and listen while they talk about the church and my poor choices in life. Maybe I come here because I know I'm not going to hurt feelings if I speak up here. I don't know.