Do we need to pay tithing on tax refunds?

[ksfisher]

2 minutes ago, Gray said:

As my stake president used to say, if you believe you're paying a full tithing, then you are, and no one can tell you you're not. 

I like this.  When it comes to the final judgement and tithing is brought up the Lord will look into our heart.  If we have been generous he will be generous to us.  If we have given all that we are able then he will give us all that he is able.  If we believe that we have done what he asked, then he will do what he's promised.

[ERayR]

10 hours ago, VideoGameJunkie said:

It's tax refund season and if we are lucky we will get a nice sum of money back. My question is do we have to pay tithing on what we get back?

Have you already paid tithing on what you are getting (payed tithing in gross) or is it a refund, to you, of someone else's taxes (earned income credit and other credits).

[ERayR]

8 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Perhaps the farmer should pay himself a "salary" out of the profits and then pay tithing on that. In this way there wouldn't be any years in which the farmer was paying no tithing at all, because I doubt he would starve himself and his family just because his farm failed to make a profit in a given year.

Scott I am usually with you but in this case I think somebody turned the lights out.  I think if you would really look at this you would see the fallacy in your reasoning.  Hint: If the farm fails to make a profit there is nothing to pay a salary with.

[flameburns623]

I had heard some version of the "10% above one's needs" previously. Some non-LDS denominations which also emphasize tithing have also explored variant interpretatiins upon what a tithe should be based.

Also have ben told that the resonable value of Church service can be counted towards one's tithe: four hours donated as time cleaning the ward, mowing the lawn, teaching a class, or whatever can be calculated towards tithing at fair value for services rendered.

But none of this should be deemed an escape clause for paying nothing at all. And it should always be balanced against the Scriptures, the teachings of the Church, and the promptings of the Spirit.

This Rock guy came up while I was looking at an author who TOm Nossor suggested.

Are we sure Rock is playing with a full deck?

Just from random impressions I am left with a sense that Rock is proposing a church comprised of 15 million Prophets, Seers, and Revalators.

Of course, I may be judging prematurely.

[ALarson]

11 minutes ago, flameburns623 said:

I had heard some version of the "10% above one's needs" previously. Some non-LDS denominations which also emphasize tithing have also explored variant interpretatiins upon what a tithe should be based.

Also have ben told that the resonable value of Church service can be counted towards one's tithe: four hours donated as time cleaning the ward, mowing the lawn, teaching a class, or whatever can be calculated towards tithing at fair value for services rendered.

But none of this should be deemed an escape clause for paying nothing at all. And it should always be balanced against the Scriptures, the teachings of the Church, and the promptings of the Spirit.

This Rock guy came up while I was looking at an author who TOm Nossor suggested.

Are we sure Rock is playing with a full deck?

Just from random impressions I am left with a sense that Rock is proposing a church comprised of 15 million Prophets, Seers, and Revalators.

Of course, I may be judging prematurely.

I think that Rock is no longer a member of the church (iirc, he's been excommunicated).  I haven't read much of what he's written, so I can't really comment on that.

Edited March 23, 2016 by ALarson

[halconero]

Whatever you want.

[Scott Lloyd]

2 hours ago, ALarson said:

I'll leave it.  Until Bill Reel himself posts what he believes, I think it's best that you just speak for yourself.  Again, you wouldn't want anyone doing to you what you are attempting to do to him here.

.

I don't mind if people discuss my definition of tithing; I'm not ashamed of it.

Quote

What flameburns described after just listening to Bill Reel discuss his beliefs on this, is not what you have accused him of believing or stating.

What did fameburns say that contradicts me?

Quote

Why not just answer the question in the OP with your own beliefs ...

I've done that.

Quote

... rather than trying to smear someone else by naming them and misquoting them?

Again, I've explored the implication of what I understand him to have said. And there has been a link posted to the prior thread so others can arrive at their own conclusions.

Why does Reel try to smear Church leaders because they don't promulgate his quirky definition of tithing?

 

[Scott Lloyd]

2 hours ago, ERayR said:

Scott I am usually with you but in this case I think somebody turned the lights out.  I think if you would really look at this you would see the fallacy in your reasoning.  Hint: If the farm fails to make a profit there is nothing to pay a salary with.

There would be if the farm had a cash reserve to see it through a lean year. My comment presupposes that is the case. If the farmer or business owner views himself as being in the position of an employee, then he could regard whatever salary he grants himself, be it from that year's profits or from a cash reserve, as being income, just as one of his employees, if there are any, would do.

If the farm (or any other business, for that matter) had no cash reserve, then obviously you are correct in that there would be nothing to pay a salary from and, consequently, nothing to tithe. Of course, no farm or other from of business could long survive without making a profit.

By the way, I'm glad to see you back on the board, and I congratulate you on the nuptials.

Edited to add:

If the farmer has already tithed the money in the cash reserve, then I don't think he should feel any obligation to do so again if his income is coming strictly from the reserve. That would be comparable  to paying tithing on the gross as opposed to the net.

Edited March 23, 2016 by Scott Lloyd

[ALarson]

12 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I don't mind if people discuss my definition of tithing; I'm not ashamed of it.

Has anyone stated they are ashamed of their beliefs regarding tithing?  It's just a good idea avoid representing other's views or opinions (especially when they're misrepresented to give a negative impression).

12 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

What did fameburns say that contradicts me?

You stated this:

12 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Now if you're Bill Reel, you only pay tithing on what's left over after you've paid all your bills and bought everything you want. Which, for most of us, would mean paying tithing on zero

Here's Flameburns response to you:

Quote

 

Not quite. Just listened to that broadcast a day or so back. 

Reel suggests that some have made a case that it is a fair interpretation that one is only required to tithe on that income which is above one's genuine living expenses. Food, housing, clothing, utilities, perhaps travel required to ovtain such necessaries (but not vacation or recreational trips).

That each individual circumstance is unique and the individual needs to search the Scrptures, study the actual words of Church authorities, and seek the guidance of the Holy Spirit to ensure they are giving in a manner that does not cheat God.

And that no one should judge another on what the Lord inspires each to give.

 

 

Edited March 23, 2016 by ALarson

[Scott Lloyd]

31 minutes ago, ALarson said:

Has anyone stated they are ashamed of their beliefs regarding tithing?  It's just a good idea avoid representing other's views or opinions (especially when they're misrepresented to give a negative impression).

 

I think I've said I don't cop to misrepresenting them. And if one has promulgated his views on this board (as Reel has done) then they are fair game for comment, analysis and evaluation.

Quote

 

You stated this:

Here's Flameburns response to you:

 

Flameburn's take is what it is, and mine is what it is. Others can go to the prior thread from the link given here and form their own conclusion.

 

Edited March 23, 2016 by Scott Lloyd

[ALarson]

18 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Why does Reel try to smear Church leaders because they don't promulgate his quirky definition of tithing?

Why do you insist on posting negative things about Bill Reel?  It's not right that you pass judgment on him or anyone else regarding what they pay for their tithes.  As long as you feel right with the Lord as to what you pay, why do you care what anyone else pays?  Again that's between them, their leaders, and the Lord.

Edited March 23, 2016 by ALarson

[Scott Lloyd]

2 minutes ago, ALarson said:

Why do you insist on posting negative things about Bill Reel?  It's not right that you pass judgment on him or anyone else regarding what they pay for their tithes.  As long as you feel right with the Lord as to what you pay, why do you care what anyone else pays?  Again that's between them, their leaders, and the Lord.

Did he not on the prior thread criticize the Church and its leaders because they have not taught people to regard his definition of tithing as an option?

 

[Jeanne]

12 hours ago, VideoGameJunkie said:

It's tax refund season and if we are lucky we will get a nice sum of money back. My question is do we have to pay tithing on what we get back?

I wouldn't ...!  But if I were LDS and actually got some money back..you could pay taxes and maybe claim it as charitable contribution for the next year.  Ugh...enough taxes..enough taxing on the same income.  You are not getting new money back..it is YOUR money that you gave away.

[ALarson]

1 minute ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Did he not on the prior thread criticize the Church and its leaders because they have not taught people to regard his definition of tithing as an option?

I have no idea if he did that (I haven't read the other thread).  Maybe you should start a new thread discussing this rather than continue to derail this one.  

This was not even you initial point or reason for bringing his name up here (which has been contradicted anyway).  How about we let the thread get back on topic instead of trying to make it about Bill Reel?

[Jeanne]

Kind of a PS on my comment above.  Instead of paying tithing on refund...why not donate to something that you really care about that is outside the realm of the LDS Church.  

[Scott Lloyd]

1 minute ago, ALarson said:

I have no idea if he did that (I haven't read the other thread).  

Then you really don't have standing to be upbraiding me for my comments about it.

Quote

Maybe you should start a new thread discussing this rather than continue to derail this one.  

 

No, I won't be doing that. I have no interest in commenting on it beyond what I've said here. Since doing that, all I've said on the subject has been in response to your expressed indignation. If you're finished, then I am.

Quote

This was not even you initial point or reason for bringing his name up here (which has been contradicted anyway).  How about we let the thread get back on topic instead of trying to make it about Bill Reel?

I was ready to do that several posts ago. I have only responded to you since then.

[Scott Lloyd]

2 hours ago, ALarson said:

I think that Rock is no longer a member of the church (iirc, he's been excommunicated).  I haven't read much of what he's written, so I can't really comment on that.

Rock has been interviewed on Bill Reel's podcast. I suspect (though I can't state with certainty) that Waterman influenced Reel's ideas about tithing.

Please don't derail the thread by making it about a person.

[ALarson]

12 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Then you really don't have standing to be upbraiding me for my comments about it.

I haven't commented on any opinions or writings of Bill Reel (those were from you or flameburn).  However, I do feel it's wrong for anyone on here to try to speak for someone else especially when it's done in an effort to make them look bad.  You should just speak for yourself and what you feel is right when paying tithing.

Again, if you want me to discuss with you what Bill has written, start another thread.  My comments to you were about not judging others or naming names in a negative manner here regarding how much someone else pays for their tithing.

Edited March 23, 2016 by ALarson

[Scott Lloyd]

10 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

I wouldn't ...!  But if I were LDS and actually got some money back..you could pay taxes and maybe claim it as charitable contribution for the next year.  Ugh...enough taxes..enough taxing on the same income.  You are not getting new money back..it is YOUR money that you gave away.

For tax purposes, I always claim as a charitable donation what I pay in tithing. It is the prudent thing to do. Fast offerings as well. And the money I pay to support my missionary son.

[Scott Lloyd]

9 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

Kind of a PS on my comment above.  Instead of paying tithing on refund...why not donate to something that you really care about that is outside the realm of the LDS Church.  

Or, if he doesn't owe any tithing because he has already paid on the gross, use the money to pay household expenses and bills or to pay down debt, which is definitey a worthy cause.

What makes you think the Church is not a cause he really cares about?

[stemelbow]

2 hours ago, flameburns623 said:

I had heard some version of the "10% above one's needs" previously. Some non-LDS denominations which also emphasize tithing have also explored variant interpretatiins upon what a tithe should be based.

Also have ben told that the resonable value of Church service can be counted towards one's tithe: four hours donated as time cleaning the ward, mowing the lawn, teaching a class, or whatever can be calculated towards tithing at fair value for services rendered.

But none of this should be deemed an escape clause for paying nothing at all. And it should always be balanced against the Scriptures, the teachings of the Church, and the promptings of the Spirit.

This Rock guy came up while I was looking at an author who TOm Nossor suggested.

Are we sure Rock is playing with a full deck?

Just from random impressions I am left with a sense that Rock is proposing a church comprised of 15 million Prophets, Seers, and Revalators.

Of course, I may be judging prematurely.

I dont' know, sounds a little Joseph Smith-ish to me.

[Scott Lloyd]

8 minutes ago, ALarson said:

I haven't commented on any opinions or writings of Bill Reel (those were from you or flameburn).  However, I do feel it's wrong for anyone on here to try to speak for someone else especially when it's done in an effort to make them look bad.  You should just speak for yourself, regarding what you feel is right when paying tithing.

Again, if you want me to discuss with you what Bill has written, start another thread.  My comments to you were about not judging others or naming names in a negative manner here regarding how much someone pays for their tithing.

I already told you I'm finished discussing this except as I choose to respond to your comments. I'm not going to start another thread, and It is up to you whether the conversation about it continues on this one.

[ALarson]

20 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

Kind of a PS on my comment above.  Instead of paying tithing on refund...why not donate to something that you really care about that is outside the realm of the LDS Church.  

I actually try to do both (pay tithing and also donate to something outside the realm of the LDS Church...and it is something I really care about too ).  We donate to a local home each year for abused or abandoned youth and also volunteer monthly out there. I do think that sometimes church members seem to feel they're done once they pay their tithing or fast offerings (and that's of course fine and admirable if they can only afford that).  It's been very rewarding for my wife and I to get involved with a group outside the church and we're glad and feel blessed that we are able to do this.

Edited March 23, 2016 by ALarson

[Scott Lloyd]

26 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

I dont' know, sounds a little Joseph Smith-ish to me.

Hardly.

[Scott Lloyd]

26 minutes ago, ALarson said:

I actually try to do both (pay tithing and also donate to something outside the realm of the LDS Church...and it is something I really care about too ).  We donate to a local home each year for abused or abandoned youth and also volunteer monthly out there. I do think that sometimes church members seem to feel they're done once they pay their tithing or fast offerings (and that's of course fine and admirable if they can only afford that).  It's been very rewarding for my wife and I to get involved with a group outside the church and we're glad and feel blessed that we are able to do this.

One can help meet a lot of social-services sorts of needs just by contributing a generous fast offering or giving to the Church's humanitarian fund. And you don't even have to be a member of the Church to do so.

Edited March 23, 2016 by Scott Lloyd