VideoGameJunkie Posted March 23, 2016 Share Posted March 23, 2016 It's tax refund season and if we are lucky we will get a nice sum of money back. My question is do we have to pay tithing on what we get back? Link to comment
PeterPear Posted March 23, 2016 Share Posted March 23, 2016 Depends if you paid tithing on your gross paycheck, if your income is reported on a W-2, generally. A refund is an overpayment of tax. So of you had paid tithing on that tax, then no, tithing is not required. But consult your CPA. Link to comment
BCSpace Posted March 23, 2016 Share Posted March 23, 2016 Completely up to you. The only answer you'll get from a Bishop or Stake president is "10% of your income". No statements on gross or net, etc. If one paid tithing on gross, the one might justify not paying tithing on a tax return (or Social Security income, etc.) but that's not necessarily an accurate accounting of what is10%. But then again, that's entirely up to you. 1 Link to comment
Duncan Posted March 23, 2016 Share Posted March 23, 2016 if you've already paid tithing on it then it's free and clear, if not then i'd suggest you fork over the loot 1 Link to comment
Scott Lloyd Posted March 23, 2016 Share Posted March 23, 2016 (edited) 23 minutes ago, VideoGameJunkie said: It's tax refund season and if we are lucky we will get a nice sum of money back. My question is do we have to pay tithing on what we get back? Not if you have paid tithing on your gross (as opposed to net) income throughout the year. If you have, go ahead and use the windfall free and clear. Now if you're Bill Reel, you only pay tithing on what's left over after you've paid all your bills and bought everything you want. Which, for most of us, would mean paying tithing on zero. But that's a subject for another thread. Edited March 23, 2016 by Scott Lloyd 4 Link to comment
Robert F. Smith Posted March 23, 2016 Share Posted March 23, 2016 (edited) 17 hours ago, BCSpace said: Completely up to you. The only answer you'll get from a Bishop or Stake president is "10% of your income". No statements on gross or net, etc. If one paid tithing on gross, the one might justify not paying tithing on a tax return (or Social Security income, etc.) but that's not necessarily an accurate accounting of what is10%. But then again, that's entirely up to you. Actually, the bishop and stake president should say "10% of your interest" (D&C 119:3; or "increase" Deut 14:22), and the rest is left up to you. Naturally the question of "interest, increase" will differ for a farmer or stock-broker as opposed to a wage-earner. The best guide is the First Presidency Letter of May 19, 1970 (which is also used by the General Handbook of Instructions): “What is a proper tithe?” “For your guidance in this matter, please be advised that we have uniformly replied that the simplest statement we know of is that statement of the Lord himself that the members of the Church should pay one-tenth of all their INTEREST annually, which is understood to mean income. NO ONE IS JUSTIFIED IN MAKING ANY OTHER STATEMENT THAN THIS. We feel that every member of the Church should be ENTITLED TO MAKE HIS OWN DECISION as to what he thinks he owes the Lord, and to make payment accordingly.” We have previously discussed this matter here on this board at http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/61279-tithing-gross-net-or-leftover/ . Edited March 23, 2016 by Robert F. Smith 3 Link to comment
Freedom Posted March 23, 2016 Share Posted March 23, 2016 I pay on my gross. I do not pay tithing on gifts. If I were to receive $100,000 as an inheritance, I personally would not pay tithing on it because it is not something I earned. I would likely give a portion through other means such as a healthy fast offering however. On non-employment income I pay after I deduct my business expenses. I pay tithes on my investments when I sell them and use them for personal expenses. I will pay tithes on the growth portion of my retirement benefits. For example, since I am paying into Canada Pension, I will not pay tithing on the income from this plan until the amount I pay into it is returned. 1 Link to comment
Scott Lloyd Posted March 23, 2016 Share Posted March 23, 2016 (edited) 1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said: Actually, the bishop and stake president should say "10% of your interest" (D&C 119:3; or "increase" Deut 14:22), and the rest is left up to you. Naturally the question of "interest, increase" will differ for a farmer or stock-broker as opposed to a wage-earner. The best guide is the First Presidency Letter of May 19, 1970 (which is also used by the General Handbook of Instructions): “What is a proper tithe?” “For your guidance in this matter, please be advised that we have uniformly replied that the simplest statement we know of is that statement of the Lord himself that the members of the Church should pay one-tenth of all their INTEREST annually, which is understood to mean income. NO ONE IS JUSTIFIED IN MAKING ANY OTHER STATEMENT THAN THIS. We feel that every member of the Church should be ENTITLED TO MAKE HIS OWN DECISION as to what he thinks he owes the Lord, and to make payment accordingly.” We have preciously discussed this matter here on this board at http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/61279-tithing-gross-net-or-leftover/ . That's the thread where Bill preaches his gospel of paying tithing on what's left over after you get done paying for (and buying) everything else. Which generally amounts to paying 10 percent of zero. Edited March 23, 2016 by Scott Lloyd 1 Link to comment
cdowis Posted March 23, 2016 Share Posted March 23, 2016 (edited) del Edited March 23, 2016 by cdowis Link to comment
Robert F. Smith Posted March 23, 2016 Share Posted March 23, 2016 2 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: That's the tread where Bill preaches his gospel of paying tithing on what's left over after you get done paying for (and buying) everything else. Which generally amounts to paying 10 percent of zero. Sounds like a zero-sum game. However, what happens to a farmer who has a year with no profit at all -- went into the hole buying/renting equipment, seed, fertilizer, etc., then a bad crop or eaten by locusts? No increase-interest, but in following years he may have bumper crops and he has plenty of increase. Most of us no longer farm, and figuring out ten percent of our wages is not too difficult. That's the Lord's take, and he owns a hundred percent of everything anyhow. He just allows us to manage it. It is a test of our stewardship, but his kingdom on the Earth does need operating funds, and we need to give a little extra to help out the needy. That tests our faith and love, until we return to him and hear his words of comfort about being "a good and faithful servant," or something else . . . Link to comment
Scott Lloyd Posted March 23, 2016 Share Posted March 23, 2016 7 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said: Sounds like a zero-sum game. However, what happens to a farmer who has a year with no profit at all -- went into the hole buying/renting equipment, seed, fertilizer, etc., then a bad crop or eaten by locusts? No increase-interest, but in following years he may have bumper crops and he has plenty of increase. Most of us no longer farm, and figuring out ten percent of our wages is not too difficult. That's the Lord's take, and he owns a hundred percent of everything anyhow. He just allows us to manage it. It is a test of our stewardship, but his kingdom on the Earth does need operating funds, and we need to give a little extra to help out the needy. That tests our faith and love, until we return to him and hear his words of comfort about being "a good and faithful servant," or something else . . . Perhaps the farmer should pay himself a "salary" out of the profits and then pay tithing on that. In this way there wouldn't be any years in which the farmer was paying no tithing at all, because I doubt he would starve himself and his family just because his farm failed to make a profit in a given year. Link to comment
thesometimesaint Posted March 23, 2016 Share Posted March 23, 2016 2 hours ago, VideoGameJunkie said: It's tax refund season and if we are lucky we will get a nice sum of money back. My question is do we have to pay tithing on what we get back? You don't HAVE to pay any tithing if you don't want to. I calculate my tithing on monthly net and then make up any difference from my tax refund. It is easier to for my monthly bookkeeping, and works out to be the same amount. Link to comment
Popular Post flameburns623 Posted March 23, 2016 Popular Post Share Posted March 23, 2016 2 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said: Not if you have paid tithing on your gross (as opposed to net) income throughout the year. If you have, go ahead and use the windfall free and clear. Now if you're Bill Reel, you only pay tithing on what's left over after you've paid all your bills and bought everything you want. Which, for most of us, would mean paying tithing on zero. But that's a subject for another thread. Not quite. Just listened to that broadcast a day or so back. Reel suggests that some have made a case that it is a fair interpretation that one is only required to tithe on that income which is above one's genuine living expenses. Food, housing, clothing, utilities, perhaps travel required to ovtain such necessaries (but not vacation or recreational trips). That each individual circumstance is unique and the individual needs to search the Scrptures, study the actual words of Church authorities, and seek the guidance of the Holy Spirit to ensure they are giving in a manner that does not cheat God. And that no one should judge another on what the Lord inspires each to give. 5 Link to comment
Scott Lloyd Posted March 23, 2016 Share Posted March 23, 2016 (edited) 6 hours ago, flameburns623 said: Not quite. Just listened to that broadcast a day or so back. Reel suggests that some have made a case that it is a fair interpretation that one is only required to tithe on that income which is above one's genuine living expenses. Food, housing, clothing, utilities, perhaps travel required to ovtain such necessaries (but not vacation or recreational trips). That each individual circumstance is unique and the individual needs to search the Scrptures, study the actual words of Church authorities, and seek the guidance of the Holy Spirit to ensure they are giving in a manner that does not cheat God. And that no one should judge another on what the Lord inspires each to give. When he says "some have made a case," he might be referring to Rock Waterman, who has since been excommunicated for apostasy. That might not have been over this specific thing, but Waterman's problem was that he was preaching that he, Waterman, has a more valid interpretation of scripture and doctrine than do the leaders of the Church, and that it is the leaders who have gone off the beam and who are guilty of "false teachings." Edited March 23, 2016 by Scott Lloyd Link to comment
Popular Post ALarson Posted March 23, 2016 Popular Post Share Posted March 23, 2016 (edited) 6 hours ago, flameburns623 said: Not quite. Just listened to that broadcast a day or so back. Reel suggests that some have made a case that it is a fair interpretation that one is only required to tithe on that income which is above one's genuine living expenses. Food, housing, clothing, utilities, perhaps travel required to ovtain such necessaries (but not vacation or recreational trips). That each individual circumstance is unique and the individual needs to search the Scrptures, study the actual words of Church authorities, and seek the guidance of the Holy Spirit to ensure they are giving in a manner that does not cheat God. And that no one should judge another on what the Lord inspires each to give. This is sound advice and I've even heard stake and ward leaders counsel members and say the same. It's an individual decision and one should do what they feel is right. As you've seen even on here, it's the no judging part that many can't and don't seem to follow. One should just pay what they feel is right and not look around and judge what someone else is giving. That's between the person, their leaders, and the Lord. Edited March 23, 2016 by ALarson 7 Link to comment
Scott Lloyd Posted March 23, 2016 Share Posted March 23, 2016 6 minutes ago, ALarson said: This is sound advice and I've even heard stake and ward leaders counsel members and say the same. It's an individual decision and one should do what they feel is right. As you've seen even on here, it's the no judging part that many can't and don't seem to follow. One should just pay what they feel is right and not look around and judge what someone else is giving. That's between the person, their leaders, and the Lord. I just think when your interpretation of scripture has the result in effect that you don't have to pay any tithing at all, it doesn't pass the smell test. .10 x 0 = 0 Link to comment
ALarson Posted March 23, 2016 Share Posted March 23, 2016 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: I just think when your interpretation of scripture has the result in effect that you don't have to pay any tithing at all, it doesn't pass the smell test. .10 x 0 = 0 Who has stated that "you don't have to pay any tithing at all"? (But in fact, if someone has no income, they are not required to monetarily pay tithing. They can give service or help with welfare services for the church.....give back that way, though. Tithing doesn't have to be given in dollars.) But again, it's not up to any one of us to be naming names here, or pointing fingers and judging. We should only worry about whether we truly feel that we are paying an honest tithe. . Edited March 23, 2016 by ALarson 3 Link to comment
Scott Lloyd Posted March 23, 2016 Share Posted March 23, 2016 (edited) 3 minutes ago, ALarson said: Who has stated that "you don't have to pay any tithing at all"? It's my reasoning. After I've paid all my bills and bought everything I want, there's nothing else left. I don't think I'm the only one like that. Again, .10 x 0 = 0 It's a sweet deal, I suppose, if you can talk yourself into believing it. Me, I've found that if I get stingy with the Lord, things start going badly for me. Edited March 23, 2016 by Scott Lloyd Link to comment
ALarson Posted March 23, 2016 Share Posted March 23, 2016 3 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: It's my reasoning. After I've paid all my bills and bought everything I want, there's nothing else left. I don't think I'm the only one like that. You are the only one who has posted this theory. I haven't seen anyone else state this. 4 Link to comment
Scott Lloyd Posted March 23, 2016 Share Posted March 23, 2016 (edited) 14 minutes ago, ALarson said: Who has stated that "you don't have to pay any tithing at all"? (But in fact, if someone has no income, they are not required to monetarily pay tithing. They can give service or help with welfare services for the church.....give back that way, though. Tithing doesn't have to be given in dollars.) But again, it's not up to any one of us to be naming names here, or pointing fingers and judging. We should only worry about whether we truly feel that we are paying an honest tithe. . The ones I've seen being judgmental are people like Waterman and Reel, who fuss at Church leaders for not teaching people that they have the option to embrace this quirky definition of tithe paying. Edited March 23, 2016 by Scott Lloyd Link to comment
ALarson Posted March 23, 2016 Share Posted March 23, 2016 Just now, Scott Lloyd said: The ones I've seen being judgmental are people like Waterman and Reel, who fuss at Church leaders for not teaching the people that they have the option to embrace this quirky definition of tithe paying. Maybe you should just worry about paying a full tithing yourself and stop pointing fingers and judging. IIIRC, Waterman isn't even a member of the church, is he? He's probably paying no tithing now. But even before then, it was none of your business what he was paying. And, what you're stating doesn't sound like what Bill Reel has discussed or believes. Maybe you should let him speak for himself here rather than misquoting or misrepresenting him. I'm sure you wouldn't want anyone doing that to you. 3 Link to comment
Scott Lloyd Posted March 23, 2016 Share Posted March 23, 2016 (edited) 5 minutes ago, ALarson said: You are the only one who has posted this theory. I haven't seen anyone else state this. It is what it is. You can take it or leave it. If it's my own reasoning, I don't have to document it as having been said by somebody else. You can accept or reject it on its own merits. Edited March 23, 2016 by Scott Lloyd Link to comment
Scott Lloyd Posted March 23, 2016 Share Posted March 23, 2016 4 minutes ago, ALarson said: Maybe you should just worry about paying a full tithing yourself and stop pointing fingers and judging. IIIRC, Waterman isn't even a member of the church, is he? He's probably paying no tithing now. But even before then, it was none of your business what he was paying. And, what you're stating doesn't sound like what Bill Reel has discussed or believes. Maybe you should let him speak for himself here rather than misquoting or misrepresenting him. I'm sure you wouldn't want anyone doing that to you. I'm just exploring the implications of what he has said as I understand it. Link to comment
ALarson Posted March 23, 2016 Share Posted March 23, 2016 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: It is what it is. You can take it or leave it. I'll leave it. Until Bill Reel himself posts what he believes, I think it's best that you just speak for yourself. Again, you wouldn't want anyone doing to you what you are attempting to do to him here. What flameburns described after just listening to Bill Reel discuss his beliefs on this, is not what you have accused him of believing or stating. Why not just answer the question in the OP with your own beliefs rather than trying to smear someone else by naming them and misquoting them? . Edited March 23, 2016 by ALarson 4 Link to comment
Gray Posted March 23, 2016 Share Posted March 23, 2016 As my stake president used to say, if you believe you're paying a full tithing, then you are, and no one can tell you you're not. 4 Link to comment
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