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Ahab

Would you ever condone sexual relations before marriage?

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Another "would you..." thread, for those who like these.

For an example of a specific situation:

Suppose you want to have a family reunion with some of your family members who are scattered in different parts of the country and you suggest a beach house near you as the place to get together.  Further suppose everybody generally likes the location and can afford to travel there and split the cost for renting one.  And still further suppose that you have a sister who is not married and who usually cones to reunions like this by herself or with a sister who lives close to her.  

And now let's suppose that said sister tells you and everybody in a Facebook group chat that she wants to bring her current boyfriend with her, supposedly planning to sleep with him in the same bed in the said beach house everyone will supposedly rent.

Would you just put up with that and stay in the said beach house in that type of situation or would you somehow bring up the fact that you won't stay in the same beach house with them if they stay in the same room with each other?

Also suppose that this sister of yours is not LDS and has a history of having sex with men she is not married to.

Please consider LDS doctrine and yourself as someone who supports it if you decide to answer.

 

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Yes, I would stay in the same beach house. 

No, I don't believe that means I am condoning premarital sex. 

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11 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Yes, I would stay in the same beach house. 

No, I don't believe that means I am condoning premarital sex. 

I agree 100%.  It's not up to me to preach or be judgmental of what another adult is doing (as long as they are not causing harm to anyone, most especially to a child).  

Good grief!  I have enough to do just taking care of myself and trying to follow and do what I believe is right for me, let alone wasting one second worrying or making a scene about what someone else is doing.

Edited by ALarson

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2 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Yes, I would stay in the same beach house. 

No, I don't believe that means I am condoning premarital sex. 

In what way do you suppose anyone else would ever get the impression that you do not condone it by.... what do you call it when you allow something but at the same time you "say" you don't condone it???

In effect it looks to me like it doesn't make any difference at all to you?  You'd stay there either way. So in what way does that look like you are not condoning it, do you think.

Looks to me like you would be even though you say you would not be.

Can you provide any other example of some way that you would say or show that you do not support it.... by your actions and not just with words?

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Yes, I would stay in said beach house.  Especially if we suppose said sister is not LDS...actually, even if she was.  Would my refusing to stay in the beach house, with them sharing a room, somehow stop them from sinning?  Or would it possibly cause bad feelings that would take years (if ever) to mend? I would also stay in that beach house if my brother-in-law who smokes and drinks alcohol was present. It's not my place to condemn others for their sins and I would expect them to not condemn me for mine.  

Edited by Rock_N_Roll

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3 minutes ago, ALarson said:

I agree 100%.  It's not up to me to preach or be judgmental of what another adult is doing.  

Good grief!  I have enough to do just taking care of myself and trying to follow and do what I believe is right for me, let alone wasting one second worrying or making a scene about what someone else is doing.

Please give me an example of you sharing what you think and believe without you making what you would call a "scene".

I would very much like to see something like that.

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Considering we're all adults, I don't see the point of policing other people's sex lives. I already do therapy specifically focusing on their sexual relationships and not all of them are married. So if I don't have a problem doing that I doubt I'll have a problem being in the same house. 

 

Neither is neccessarily condoning in my mind. Condoning would be asserting that my value system believes what they're doing is good. I think of it more of accepting and allowing differences.

 

with luv,

bd

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I occasionally sing in night clubs that serve alcohol, but I don't condone the use of alcohol.  I allow my brother-in-law to smoke cigarettes on my front porch, but I don't condone the use of tobacco.  I allow my son, who has left the church, to use his coffee maker in my home when he is there, but I don't condone the drinking of coffee.  Sometimes we just try to set a good example by our own actions, and let others live their lives as they see fit.  

Edited by Rock_N_Roll

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Where do you draw the line?

Do you refuse to work with someone who is in a relationship that you believe is immoral?

Do you refuse to live in an area where non married couples are allowed to live?

Do you take your kids out of a school that employs teachers whose relationship with their significant other that falls outside the LDS definition of marriage?

Do you refuse medical treatment from a doctor who has a gay spouse?

Do you avoid a business because they cater to just anyone.

Why is an association or relationship with someone considered an endorsement of their lifestyle?

Maybe we need to bring back separate drinking fountains for people in "approved" relationships and fountains for those living in sin, so we don't contaminate each other.

 

Glass houses and all that.

 

Edited by CA Steve

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I have a son who has a family, but is not married. If I were to refuse to have him share a room with the mother of his children when they came to visit our home, it would drive a wedge so wide between us that he would probably not wish to have a relationship with us any longer.

He knows perfectly well that we would rather they got married. But what I want him to know even more, is that we love him and his family unconditionally.

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7 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Please give me an example of you sharing what you think and believe without you making what you would call a "scene".

I would very much like to see something like that.

I just said that's what I would not want to do.  If I refused to stay in the same house with my other family members it would cause unnecessary drama or hurt feelings at a family reunion.

There are times that it's important to take a stand, but this isn't one of those times, IMO.

Edited by ALarson

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8 minutes ago, BlueDreams said:

Considering we're all adults, I don't see the point of policing other people's sex lives. I already do therapy specifically focusing on their sexual relationships and not all of them are married. So if I don't have a problem doing that I doubt I'll have a problem being in the same house. 

 

Neither is neccessarily condoning in my mind. Condoning would be asserting that my value system believes what they're doing is good. I think of it more of accepting and allowing differences.

 

with luv,

bd

There goes the option of not saying anything at all about it then, it seems.  

When you provide therapy specifically for people in sexual relationships outside of marriage do you ever feel a desire to say they shouldn't be having sexual relations before marriage? 

Just seems to me like it would be a good common sense approach to it, from an LDS perspective. 

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Let me say this...and I am NOT condoning pre-marital sex....but.....

In college, I was not LDS.  I was even a male stripper (I paid my own way thru college).  I never ever smoked or drank alcohol, or did drugs...but I was...well...loose.

In 1983, I became LDS.  In 1984, at the age of 24, I went on my mission. After my mission, at the age of 26, I married an LDS woman, a returned  missionary.  She had never had sex before.  I had.  A lot.

We did not have pre-marital sex.  We married.  Turned out, she hated sex.  She did not know she hated sex.  We had a horrible marriage for many reasons.....but one of them was we were not sexually compatible.  That woulda been  nice to know BEFORE we got married.

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Trying for you in the OP to look at this in an LDS POV...even in my active days..it would have been none of my business.  This situation belongs to the parents and immediate family..but wouldn't let it ruin an entire reunion that would cause trouble for everyone else.

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9 minutes ago, Rock_N_Roll said:

I occasionally sing in night clubs that serve alcohol, but I don't condone the use of alcohol.  I allow my brother-in-law to smoke cigarettes on my front porch, but I don't condone the use of tobacco.  I allow my son, who has left the church, to use his coffee maker in my home when he is there, but I don't condone the drinking of coffee.  Sometimes we just try to set a good example by our own actions, and let others live their lives as they see fit.  

To me there is a difference between you not doing something yourself vs generally not condoning it.  

Not condoning something means, to me at least, to not condone it when anybody does it, given the same circumstances. 

Would you ever tell anybody what you do not condone or would you just keep what you do not condone to yourself,  aside from what others could see from your actions? 

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I just always think nothing will happen and then there's no problem, I live in a fantasy world.  But agree with those that say it's better to say nothing.  Good relationships in families are already hard to keep.    

Edited by Tacenda

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19 minutes ago, Ahab said:

In what way do you suppose anyone else would ever get the impression that you do not condone it by.... what do you call it when you allow something but at the same time you "say" you don't condone it???

In effect it looks to me like it doesn't make any difference at all to you?  You'd stay there either way. So in what way does that look like you are not condoning it, do you think.

Looks to me like you would be even though you say you would not be.

 

Yes, i'd stay there either way.  Only a really really odd person would assume that merely being in the same building as someone who is sinning means that you condone the sin.  

Quote

Can you provide any other example of some way that you would say or show that you do not support it.... by your actions and not just with words?

I wouldn't need to say or do anything.  My family would obviously already know my beliefs.  I don't believe that one of my jobs as a member of the church is to make sure at all times that people know when i think they are sinning.  

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6 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Yes, i'd stay there either way.  Only a really really odd person would assume that merely being in the same building as someone who is sinning means that you condone the sin.  

I wouldn't need to say or do anything.  My family would obviously already know my beliefs.  I don't believe that one of my jobs as a member of the church is to make sure at all times that people know when i think they are sinning.  

You're making some sense to me here, now.  After all when I stay in a hotel somewhere the odds are that some people are having pre-marital sexual relations in some other room.  But in most cases I really don't know that for sure.

This situation hits a little closer to home and my heart though because I am talking about my sister. And I am asking you to consider her to  be your sister as well, in your own nuclear family.

Let's update the situation a little bit now and suppose that she asked you if you would mind if she did what you would think she might do in bed with him.  Or not just if you would mind, but if you would actually condone what she would be doing.  Speaking about premarital sexual relations.  Imagine her asking you if you would condone it?

Now what would you do? What would you say?

Would you in any way want to give her the impression that you condoned it?  That it wouldn't bother you at all if she did?

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9 minutes ago, Ahab said:

You're making some sense to me here, now.  After all when I stay in a hotel somewhere the odds are that some people are having pre-marital sexual relations in some other room.  But in most cases I really don't know that for sure.

This situation hits a little closer to home and my heart though because I am talking about my sister. And I am asking you to consider her to  be your sister as well, in your own nuclear family.

Let's update the situation a little bit now and suppose that she asked you if you would mind if she did what you would think she might do in bed with him.  Or not just if you would mind, but if you would actually condone what she would be doing.  Speaking about premarital sexual relations.  Imagine her asking you if you would condone it?

Now what would you do? What would you say?

Would you in any way want to give her the impression that you condoned it?  That it wouldn't bother you at all if she did?

I had a sister (my only sibling) who not only had premarital sex but a baby out of wedlock as well.  I can empathize with your pain. 

Asked specifically, I would be loving but honest about my beliefs concerning such actions, but otherwise my only real focus would be to show love and mercy. 

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57 minutes ago, Ahab said:

.... what do you call it when you allow something but at the same time you "say" you don't condone it???

Civility, decency, forebarence, gentility, temperance, long-suffering, charity, brotherly kindness, fairness, rightness...

Quote

“Civility, I submit, is what gives savor to our lives. It is the salt that speaks of good taste, good manners, good breeding. It becomes an expression of the Golden Rule: “Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them” (Matthew 7:12).
Civility is the root of the word civilization. It carries with it the essence of courtesy, politeness, and consideration of others. How very much of it we have lost in our contemporary society! All of the education and accomplishments in the world will not count for much unless they are accompanied by marks of gentility, of respect for others, of going the extra mile, of serving as a good Samaritan, of being men and women who look beyond our own selfish interests to the good of others. Only as we do so will we find fulfillment. In some respects, it truly is a “jungle out there.” The absence of civility creates the jungle. No matter the extent of our education, no matter our achievements in science, business, the professions, or whatever—if that other dimension of which I have spoken is missing, we will lack that which is most precious. We will be deficient in the godly quality of reaching out with respect and kindness, with courtesy and appreciation and maturity, toward our fellow travelers here on planet earth.”

(Gordon B. Hinckley Standing for Something, 10 Neglected Virtues That Will Heal Our Hearts And Homes, pg 60-62.)

Edited by pogi

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16 minutes ago, Ahab said:

You're making some sense to me here, now.  After all when I stay in a hotel somewhere the odds are that some people are having pre-marital sexual relations in some other room.  But in most cases I really don't know that for sure.

This situation hits a little closer to home and my heart though because I am talking about my sister. And I am asking you to consider her to  be your sister as well, in your own nuclear family.

Let's update the situation a little bit now and suppose that she asked you if you would mind if she did what you would think she might do in bed with him.  Or not just if you would mind, but if you would actually condone what she would be doing.  Speaking about premarital sexual relations.  Imagine her asking you if you would condone it?

Now you're just being creepy.  I think you are thinking way too much about what your sister may be doing in bed with her boyfriend (or even what the other guests in the hotel might be doing...).

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18 minutes ago, Ahab said:

There goes the option of not saying anything at all about it then, it seems.  

When you provide therapy specifically for people in sexual relationships outside of marriage do you ever feel a desire to say they shouldn't be having sexual relations before marriage? 

Just seems to me like it would be a good common sense approach to it, from an LDS perspective. 

No...I value my license. If they're lds, they already know this and being a nag isn't helpful. If they're not their values vary and insisting on mine isn't helpful. I will use stats and whatnot about relational health and what's more likely to lead to a better relationship, and I will give my opinion if they ask. But that's the gist.

 

with luv, 

bd

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2 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I had a sister (my only sibling) who not only had premarital sex but a baby out of wedlock as well.  I can empathize with your pain. 

Asked specifically, I would be loving but honest about my beliefs concerning such actions, but otherwise my only real focus would be to show love and mercy. 

My sister is the sort of person who would ask before bringing somebody like that to a family reunion, and I am the sort of person who is open and honest and very direct when sharing my feelings and beliefs with others who are close to me.

Not sure if she's going to want to bring this one with her this time, but... don't worry, I'll respond appropriately if she does.

As a big brother, the eldest brother, should.

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29 minutes ago, busybee said:

I have a son who has a family, but is not married. If I were to refuse to have him share a room with the mother of his children when they came to visit our home, it would drive a wedge so wide between us that he would probably not wish to have a relationship with us any longer.

He knows perfectly well that we would rather they got married. But what I want him to know even more, is that we love him and his family unconditionally.

My wife's best friend is in similar  situation but has made the opposite choice of making it clear if her daughter wishes to visit, her gay girlfriend can come but they cannot stay in the same room. The result of this mandate has been the loss of a relationship with not only her gay daughter but several other of her daughters as well. The one really suffering with all this is the mother, who desperately wants her children and grandchildren around but is unable to find a way to do so.

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1 hour ago, Ahab said:

Another "would you..." thread, for those who like these.

For an example of a specific situation:

Suppose you want to have a family reunion with some of your family members who are scattered in different parts of the country and you suggest a beach house near you as the place to get together.  Further suppose everybody generally likes the location and can afford to travel there and split the cost for renting one.  And still further suppose that you have a sister who is not married and who usually cones to reunions like this by herself or with a sister who lives close to her.  

And now let's suppose that said sister tells you and everybody in a Facebook group chat that she wants to bring her current boyfriend with her, supposedly planning to sleep with him in the same bed in the said beach house everyone will supposedly rent.

Would you just put up with that and stay in the said beach house in that type of situation or would you somehow bring up the fact that you won't stay in the same beach house with them if they stay in the same room with each other?

Also suppose that this sister of yours is not LDS and has a history of having sex with men she is not married to.

Please consider LDS doctrine and yourself as someone who supports it if you decide to answer.

 

Would you have a problem if she insisted you and your wife not read the BoM or pray while in the vacation rental, lest she be accused of condoning Mormonism?

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