Notions of Grace, Works, the Law, and Faith in the New Testament

[FormerLDS]

17 hours ago, pogi said:

And you are able to judge who hath the Son?  Answer me this, does one have to love Jesus (a.k.a. do [work] as He commands) to "have Jesus Christ"?   Must he also do the work to feed him, clothe him, give him to drink, take him in, visit him in prison, and minister unto him?  Because it seems that if we do not this work we are promised "everlasting punishment". 

In Revelation 3:20, Jesus Christ says "Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me."

 

The moment of belief and salvation is that which feeds the savior.  It is the moment one eats His flesh and drinks His blood (John 6:54-56).

Likewise, there are those who have eternal life and there are those who do not have eternal life. 

Friends, like it or not, believe it or not, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints teaches that you do not have eternal life.  I think anyone willing to see the obvious can make their own conclusions.

[stemelbow]

2 minutes ago, FormerLDS said:

 

Friends, like it or not, believe it or not, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints teaches that you do not have eternal life.  

How do you know who has eternal life and who does not? Did God tell you?

[clarkgoble]

43 minutes ago, FormerLDS said:

If you do not receive the gift of eternal life during mortality, your worthy behavior won't do SQUAT for you after you die.

Is this whole discussion based upon equivocation over the term "eternal life"? Because it sure sounds like it. As I mentioned earlier it appears to be about justification and sanctification and whether either is typically complete in this life.

If I have FormerLDS right, he is saying that only justification relates to eternal life, that it is complete the moment we're born again, and that eternal life never relates to sanctification. The issue shouldn't be whether eternal life is ever spoken of relative to what we'd call justification. The question is whether it's only talked about in that fashion.

That seems much harder for FormerLDS to claim. Effectively his approach is to find places it's talked about one way and then argue that's the only way it's talked about. Further, as I mentioned, he also simply neglects the question of whether because one has taken hold of grace that is permanent. Yet those two claims are fundamental to his beliefs yet he's not argued for them anywhere (that I can see). So all the things are argued for are somewhat beside the point.

I'd add that he also conflates whether works alone can save versus whether works are inseparable from true faith. After all two people can do the same things yet do them for very different reasons.

Edited May 23, 2017 by clarkgoble

[FormerLDS]

26 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

How do you know who has eternal life and who does not? Did God tell you?

LDS theology plainly answers your question regarding having/not having eternal life:

 

Eternal Life, or Exaltation.

In the scriptures, the words saved and salvation often refer to eternal life, or exaltation (see Abraham 2:11). Eternal life is to know Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ and dwell with Them forever—to inherit a place in the highest degree of the celestial kingdom (see John 17:3; D&C 131:1–4; 132:21–24). To receive this great gift, we must do more than repent of our sins and be baptized and confirmed by appropriate priesthood authority. Men must receive the Melchizedek Priesthood, and all Church members must make and keep sacred covenants in the temple, including eternal marriage.

If we use the word salvation to mean eternal life, none of us can say that we have been saved in mortality. That glorious gift can come only after the Final Judgment."

[FormerLDS]

14 minutes ago, clarkgoble said:

Is this whole discussion based upon equivocation over the term "eternal life"? Because it sure sounds like it. As I mentioned earlier it appears to be about justification and sanctification and whether either is typically complete in this life.

If I have FormerLDS right, he is saying that only justification relates to eternal life, that it is complete the moment we're born again, and that eternal life never relates to sanctification. The issue shouldn't be whether eternal life is ever spoken of relative to what we'd call justification. The question is whether it's only talked about in that fashion.

That seems much harder for FormerLDS to claim. Effectively his approach is to find places it's talked about one way and then argue that's the only way it's talked about. Further, as I mentioned, he also simply neglects the question of whether because one has taken hold of grace that is permanent. Yet those two claims are fundamental to his beliefs yet he's not argued for them anywhere (that I can see). So all the things are argued for are somewhat beside the point.

I'd add that he also conflates whether works alone can save versus whether works are inseparable from true faith. After all two people can do the same things yet do them for very different reasons.

"eternal life" = Justification and sanctification

Both LDS and non-LDS Christians would agree that "eternal life" is the highest form of salvation possible, so cannot have one without the other.

Again, focus on the word of Jesus Christ.  If LDS can see that Jesus Christ is offering them eternal life today - right now, just like taking a gift at Christmas time, it is most easy to comprehend.

[stemelbow]

10 minutes ago, FormerLDS said:

LDS theology plainly answers your question regarding having/not having eternal life:

 

Eternal Life, or Exaltation.

In the scriptures, the words saved and salvation often refer to eternal life, or exaltation (see Abraham 2:11). Eternal life is to know Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ and dwell with Them forever—to inherit a place in the highest degree of the celestial kingdom (see John 17:3; D&C 131:1–4; 132:21–24). To receive this great gift, we must do more than repent of our sins and be baptized and confirmed by appropriate priesthood authority. Men must receive the Melchizedek Priesthood, and all Church members must make and keep sacred covenants in the temple, including eternal marriage.

If we use the word salvation to mean eternal life, none of us can say that we have been saved in mortality. That glorious gift can come only after the Final Judgment."

Well I guess I don't care if you think LDS have it wrong.  I was just curious what it might mean to you. 

[clarkgoble]

42 minutes ago, FormerLDS said:

"eternal life" = Justification and sanctification

So you are arguing that people are fully sanctified in this life? I confess I don't see any way that is possible. My guess is you're conflating justification and sanctification. Even among Calvinists sanctification is usually seen as a process. Admittedly the Calvinists then come up with to me the dubious idea of a new essence and thus when they sin it's something non-essential about the person sinning. This is hard to justify (no pun intended) except by blurring the distinction between justification and sanctification, and then of course the ontology of the soul and essence. 

It's also why cheap grace becomes such a problem theologically. After all it you think your essence has changed and any bad act is "someone else" then you feel no particular need to stop those activities. The obvious rejoinder that most other Christian traditions would make is that if you constantly are acting in a certain way that demonstrates what your essence actually is like - and it sure isn't sanctified. The obvious way to read scriptures like John 5:18 isn't that we have two natures with only one mattering. Rather it is that when we are born again we have only one nature.

Effectively those pushing this narrative are conflating Paul's teachings on the flesh and the spirit and inappropriately missing the forest for the trees. If sanctification is a process and not a one time event, then we will not fully have eternal life until our whole body is transformed in the resurrection. Almost by definition if you sin, that hasn't happened. 

Edited May 23, 2017 by clarkgoble

[Anakin7]

In Response to FormerLDS out of context/misuse of "Filthy Rags" in Isa 64:6 see  -  http://www.14lds.com/rags.htm

http://www.lightplanet.com/response/answers/filtyrags.htm    

http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/openhse/rags.html   http://www.inplainsite.org/html/filthy_rags.html   http://www.wor.org/Books/f/Filthy_Rags.htm 

The Atonement It Is The Central Doctrine

Washing My Garment In His Blood

In His Eternal Debt/Grace

Anakin7

Edited May 23, 2017 by Anakin7

[FormerLDS]

58 minutes ago, clarkgoble said:

So you are arguing that people are fully sanctified in this life? I confess I don't see any way that is possible. My guess is you're conflating justification and sanctification. Even among Calvinists sanctification is usually seen as a process. Admittedly the Calvinists then come up with to me the dubious idea of a new essence and thus when they sin it's something non-essential about the person sinning. This is hard to justify (no pun intended) except by blurring the distinction between justification and sanctification, and then of course the ontology of the soul and essence. 

It's also why cheap grace becomes such a problem theologically. After all it you think your essence has changed and any bad act is "someone else" then you feel no particular need to stop those activities. The obvious rejoinder that most other Christian traditions would make is that if you constantly are acting in a certain way that demonstrates what your essence actually is like - and it sure isn't sanctified. The obvious way to read scriptures like John 5:18 isn't that we have two natures with only one mattering. Rather it is that when we are born again we have only one nature.

Effectively those pushing this narrative are conflating Paul's teachings on the flesh and the spirit and inappropriately missing the forest for the trees. If sanctification is a process and not a one time event, then we will not fully have eternal life until our whole body is transformed in the resurrection. Almost by definition if you sin, that hasn't happened. 

I would argue that grace is a whole lot cheaper than you describe.  In fact, it's FREE.  Not cheap.

Regarding sanctification and justification, it's a bit of a separate subject than what has been discussed here so far (i.e. eternal life), but would you be willing to believe what the Bible plainly says? 

If so, should be easy to demonstrate to you those who are justified are also sanctified.

[clarkgoble]

21 minutes ago, FormerLDS said:

I would argue that grace is a whole lot cheaper than you describe.  In fact, it's FREE.  Not cheap.

Regarding sanctification and justification, it's a bit of a separate subject than what has been discussed here so far (i.e. eternal life), but would you be willing to believe what the Bible plainly says? 

If so, should be easy to demonstrate to you those who are justified are also sanctified.

Well "plainly" is pretty disputable. 

But again, so we are clear, the issue isn't whether those justified are also sanctified. Rather the question is about whether those are processes and when they are complete (finished).

BTW - cheap grace is a heresy and is the idea that no transformation in behavior is part of being born again.

[Anakin7]

    For Former LDS - The True Grace of Jesus Christ - http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/review/?vol=22&num=1&id=798 

The Atonement It Is The Central Doctrine

Washing My Garment/Robe In The Blood Of The Lamb

In His Eternal Debt/Grace

Anakin7

Edited May 23, 2017 by Anakin7

[pogi]

6 hours ago, FormerLDS said:

A reward can never be a gift; they are opposite.  You will never find an Olympic medalist who considers his medal a free gift from the Olympic judges.    

The word "reward" appears 107 times in the KJV Bible and is always the result of work, service, labor or behavior.  

A "gift", on the other hand, appears 104 times in the KJV Bible and is always offered freely and without repayment.

Eternal life is explained both as a reward and a gift in the scriptures.  

On the one hand, passages like John 3:16, 4:10, and Rev. 22:17 say that eternal life is a free gift which is appropriated by faith alone.  On the other hand, passages like Matthew 19:29, Romans 2:6-7, Galatians 6:8-9, and Philippians 2:12-13, say that eternal life is a reward for work done.

Even you cannot deny that eternal life is at least in some sense a reward as it is conditional upon belief.  You can't escape that without resting the scriptures.  According to you, eternal life is a reward for belief.  Therefore, it is not free in the sense that anyone can have it, but is conditional upon the work of believing.  True belief leads to becoming reborn into a new man by grace.  The new man leads to works by grace.  Works lead to promised rewards, but this is all only possible by the gift of grace.

 I think 1 Corinthians 15:10 is a pretty good bridge for understanding the relationship between works/grace and reward/gift. 

Quote

But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.

 

[RevTestament]

7 hours ago, FormerLDS said:

Isaiah is clarifying what Heavenly Father really thinks about all of those works people trust in to somehow assist in obtaining eternal life.

They are "filthy rags" to God.  

If you do not receive the gift of eternal life during mortality, your worthy behavior won't do SQUAT for you after you die.

This is a misinterpretation of the scripture. Good works are not in and of themselves filthy rags. However, without a right attitude, they don't account for salvation or make one innocent of their sin. The point trying to be made is that the Jews could not save themselves by their works. Without believing in God's appointed Savior, works are basically worthless. Jesus condemned the works of the Pharisees because they were done for the wrong reasons - to gain popularity or to build their own reputations. These types of "good works" do not impress God because they are done merely for outward show. Jesus came to replace the outward law with the inward law - one's intent. Thus, the apostles taught the followers, and Christ Himself taught to let your good works shine in order to attract people to Christ. Christ Himself did good works on the Sabbath.

As Clark was trying to say, I think the Calvinists kind of confuse justification and sanctification. I think you are trying to teach that justification brings one eternal life. Justification just means one is deemed to meet the requirements of the law (is justified) by accepting Yeshua as their Savior. Since they are justified and their sins are forgiven, they can escape hell. I read this as different from sanctification, which I read to be analogous to glorification. Jesus was sanctified but not "justified" since He was the justifier. 

John 10:36

36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath ^asanctified, and ^bsent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the ^cSon of God?

Being sanctified or exalted is akin to being made one with God as I see it - being set apart or made higher than the angels as Hebrews says. Thus it is analogous to receiving life from God. It becomes eternal some time after we depart this world. God is certainly not going to sanctify a purposeful or unrepentant sinner.

[Anakin7]

9 hours ago, Anakin7 said:

In Response to FormerLDS out of context/misuse of "Filthy Rags" in Isa 64:6 see  -  http://www.14lds.com/rags.htm

http://www.lightplanet.com/response/answers/filtyrags.htm    

http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/openhse/rags.html   http://www.inplainsite.org/html/filthy_rags.html   http://www.wor.org/Books/f/Filthy_Rags.htm 

The Atonement It Is The Central Doctrine

Washing My Garment In His Blood

In His Eternal Debt/Grace

Anakin7

    Repost for FormerLDS

[Anakin7]

5 hours ago, Anakin7 said:

    For Former LDS - The True Grace of Jesus Christ - http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/review/?vol=22&num=1&id=798 

The Atonement It Is The Central Doctrine

Washing My Garment/Robe In The Blood Of The Lamb

In His Eternal Debt/Grace

Anakin7

Repost for FormerLDS.

[Vance]

On 5/22/2017 at 3:30 PM, FormerLDS said:

To reiterate, those who receive the "eternal life" that Jesus Christ gives receive His sinless perfection within their new, living man within, thus meeting 100% of heavenly Father's sinless perfection/obedience requirement. 

Thank you for responding, but to reiterate, this is NOT taught anywhere in scripture.  You have to twist the verses to get it, thus wresting them.

On 5/22/2017 at 3:30 PM, FormerLDS said:

1 John 3:9 best illustrates this sinless inner man concept "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."

No where it that verse can you get that Jesus put His righteousness upon us.  You are going to have to wrest the verse to get there.

On 5/22/2017 at 3:30 PM, FormerLDS said:

"Born of God" isn't a physical birth - it is a spiritual/inner birth, resurrection or eternal life!

"Born of God" is receiving and having the Spirit of God dwell within you.  When you have the Spirit within you, you don't sin. You don't want to sin.  You look upon sin with abhorrence, AS LONG AS YOU CONTINUE IN OBEDIENCE to the Spirit.  IF you disobey the Spirit, it leaves you until you repent.

On 5/22/2017 at 3:30 PM, FormerLDS said:

That new man within CANNOT SIN. 

But he can and most likely will.

On 5/22/2017 at 3:30 PM, FormerLDS said:

This is a 100% washing of all sins past, present and future. . . .

Nope.  Future sins cause one to fall out of grace.  Renewing again unto repentance is the only solution.

On 5/22/2017 at 3:30 PM, FormerLDS said:

and meets the "Be ye therefore perfect (sinless)" requirement required of us in Matthew 5:48. 

Nope, it is ONLY as Paul taught,

" 'God' Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

 

But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,"

 

So, no, you haven't shown that what you claimed is taught in scripture.  And I assume that was your best shot.

 

So, much for your false doctrine, and so much for your other false doctrine of "sola scriptura".

[FormerLDS]

On 5/24/2017 at 9:04 PM, Vance said:

Thank you for responding, but to reiterate, this is NOT taught anywhere in scripture.  You have to twist the verses to get it, thus wresting them.

Eternal life is in Jesus Christ and those who have Jesus Christ have eternal life. 

In 1 John 5:11-12 “And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.  He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.”

Those who have eternal life have Jesus Christ living within them. 

Hence, those who receive the "eternal life" have His sinless perfection within their new, living man, thus meeting 100% of heavenly Father's sinless perfection/obedience requirement. 

On 5/24/2017 at 9:04 PM, Vance said:

No where it that verse can you get that Jesus put His righteousness upon us.  You are going to have to wrest the verse to get there.

If one “cannot sin”, how is that not righteous? 

Not only is His righteousness upon us like a robe (Isaiah 61), but His righteousness is within us because HE is within those who receive His gift of eternal life.

The Savior plainly says “I will come in to him” in Revelation 3:20:

“Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.”

The new inner man is made righteous, sinless and perfect through Jesus Christ.

On 5/24/2017 at 9:04 PM, Vance said:

"Born of God" is receiving and having the Spirit of God dwell within you.  When you have the Spirit within you, you don't sin. You don't want to sin.  You look upon sin with abhorrence, AS LONG AS YOU CONTINUE IN OBEDIENCE to the Spirit.  IF you disobey the Spirit, it leaves you until you repent.

You are confusing the old man and the new man.  The old man can never do enough to somehow perfect himself through worthy behavior and “obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel.”

“Born of God” in 1 John 3 is the same as being “born again” in John 3.  This means a new life enters the world.  This new life is the new man and is eternal life, sinless and perfect.   

On 5/24/2017 at 9:04 PM, Vance said:

But he can and most likely will.

Bible: “He cannot sin”.

FormerLDS: This actually means “He cannot sin”.

Vance: This actually means “But he can and most likely will [sin].”

And you claim I am wresting and twisting the scripture and what I'm saying “is NOT taught anywhere in scripture”?

On 5/24/2017 at 9:04 PM, Vance said:

Nope.  Future sins cause one to fall out of grace.  Renewing again unto repentance is the only solution.

Again, you confuse the old man with the new man.  The old man will never be able to make himself sinless or perfect himself enough to become the new, sinless man.

The new man is sinless and meets 100% of Heavenly Father’s perfection and obedience requirement.

On 5/24/2017 at 9:04 PM, Vance said:

Nope, it is ONLY as Paul taught,

" 'God' Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

 

But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,"

 

So, no, you haven't shown that what you claimed is taught in scripture.  And I assume that was your best shot.

 

So, much for your false doctrine, and so much for your other false doctrine of "sola scriptura".

Imagine for just a moment how wonderful your life would be if you didn’t have to continuously try to live a perfect life and constantly “do all that you can do” in order to try to obtain eternal life one day?

Imagine if Jesus Christ offered you His perfection and His righteousness as a free gift that you could simply just take right now and nothing you or anyone else could do would ever take that life away from you.

Indeed, it is wonderful!

[FormerLDS]

On 5/23/2017 at 5:58 PM, RevTestament said:

This is a misinterpretation of the scripture. Good works are not in and of themselves filthy rags. However, without a right attitude, they don't account for salvation or make one innocent of their sin. The point trying to be made is that the Jews could not save themselves by their works. Without believing in God's appointed Savior, works are basically worthless. Jesus condemned the works of the Pharisees because they were done for the wrong reasons - to gain popularity or to build their own reputations. These types of "good works" do not impress God because they are done merely for outward show. Jesus came to replace the outward law with the inward law - one's intent. Thus, the apostles taught the followers, and Christ Himself taught to let your good works shine in order to attract people to Christ. Christ Himself did good works on the Sabbath.

As Clark was trying to say, I think the Calvinists kind of confuse justification and sanctification. I think you are trying to teach that justification brings one eternal life. Justification just means one is deemed to meet the requirements of the law (is justified) by accepting Yeshua as their Savior. Since they are justified and their sins are forgiven, they can escape hell. I read this as different from sanctification, which I read to be analogous to glorification. Jesus was sanctified but not "justified" since He was the justifier. 

John 10:36

36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath ^asanctified, and ^bsent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the ^cSon of God?

Being sanctified or exalted is akin to being made one with God as I see it - being set apart or made higher than the angels as Hebrews says. Thus it is analogous to receiving life from God. It becomes eternal some time after we depart this world. God is certainly not going to sanctify a purposeful or unrepentant sinner.

The "Third Article of Faith" reveals the true "intent" for your works:

"We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel."

So if I want to be saved (selfish intent) then I have to obey the commandments.

Only those who HAVE eternal life already are qualified to claim they obey the commandments because they love the savior.  

They already HAVE eternal life!

[Anakin7]

Selfish intent ?, pray tell !.

The Atonement It Is The Central Doctrine

Washing My Garment/Robe In His Blood

In His Eternal Debt/Grace

Anakin7

[RevTestament]

27 minutes ago, FormerLDS said:

The "Third Article of Faith" reveals the true "intent" for your works:

"We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel."

So if I want to be saved (selfish intent) then I have to obey the commandments.

Only those who HAVE eternal life already are qualified to claim they obey the commandments because they love the savior.  

They already HAVE eternal life!

This is simply engaging in circular argumentation. The point of grace is that it is not earned. No works we do will earn us grace. It is a free gift, but to follow Jesus does not mean merely to move ones lips. Jesus is quite clear about this - telling us many will confess his name but that He will tell them He never knew them because they did not do His works. To argue that one can believe in Jesus and not do His works is an oxymoron in Hebraism. You want to argue that everyone will receive the same reward through the grace of Jesus, which is simply not the case. Some who follow Him will judge the 12 tribes with Him in the regeneration. Teaching that one only has to move one's lips to accept Christ and then by His grace they will receive the ultimate reward and can go home and watch TV, is simply not true. It is a horrible doctrine which has done a lot to destroy Christianity in this modern age. Now, you have those who argue they do not need to be baptized, etc. Essentially, they are arguing that Jesus' commandments are dirty rags. I feel for them if they try to face Him at the last day with this poor excuse for a doctrine, and I feel for you if you continue to try to follow and teach it. Whether I believe I have the promise of eternal life or eternal life itself is really irrelevant as far as I am concerned. I believe these concepts are used interchangeably in the NT in regards to those here on earth. LDS do believe we have life in Jesus once we are reborn in him. I see it in many members, and have actually identified LDS by this beautiful spirit they carry. You are leaving it. I wish you well.

[FormerLDS]

19 minutes ago, Anakin7 said:

Selfish intent ?, pray tell !.

The Atonement It Is The Central Doctrine

Hey it's not my Third Article of Faith, it's yours.

It's easy to claim the atonement is our central doctrine, but again, if you claim eternal life is the result of "obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel", then anyone could claim that you ultimately have a selfish intent for obeying the commandments.

[FormerLDS]

11 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

This is simply engaging in circular argumentation. The point of grace is that it is not earned. No works we do will earn us grace. It is a free gift, but to follow Jesus does not mean merely to move ones lips. Jesus is quite clear about this - telling us many will confess his name but that He will tell them He never knew them because they did not do His works. To argue that one can believe in Jesus and not do His works is an oxymoron in Hebraism. You want to argue that everyone will receive the same reward through the grace of Jesus, which is simply not the case. Some who follow Him will judge the 12 tribes with Him in the regeneration. Teaching that one only has to move one's lips to accept Christ and then by His grace they will receive the ultimate reward and can go home and watch TV, is simply not true. It is a horrible doctrine which has done a lot to destroy Christianity in this modern age. Now, you have those who argue they do not need to be baptized, etc. Essentially, they are arguing that Jesus' commandments are dirty rags. I feel for them if they try to face Him at the last day with this poor excuse for a doctrine, and I feel for you if you continue to try to follow and teach it. Whether I believe I have the promise of eternal life or eternal life itself is really irrelevant as far as I am concerned. I believe these concepts are used interchangeably in the NT in regards to those here on earth. LDS do believe we have life in Jesus once we are reborn in him. I see it in many members, and have actually identified LDS by this beautiful spirit they carry. You are leaving it. I wish you well.

You have missed the whole point.  When you're so accustomed to seeing eternal life as the reward of worthy behavior, it's difficult to think of eternal life in terms of a "gift", not a "reward".  

Focus on the words of Jesus Christ.  I'm 100% confident if you truly seek truth and ask Him to show you, you will see the truth.

Friends, the "eternal life" Jesus Christ offers can be yours today, but you have to first allow eternal life to be a free gift, not the reward of worthy behavior.

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life." John 6:47  

[Anakin7]

1 hour ago, FormerLDS said:

Hey it's not my Third Article of Faith, it's yours.

It's easy to claim the atonement is our central doctrine, but again, if you claim eternal life is the result of "obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel", then anyone could claim that you ultimately have a selfish intent for obeying the commandments.

    We accept, access, activate, grab hold of, obtain,receive, hold on to his Atoning Blood Sacrifice for us by Faith - Greek - Allegiance,commitment,confidence,devotion,discipleship,faithfulness,fidelity,loyalty,obedience,trust to the person and work of Jesus Christ for us. Faith is a Law in scripture and as with the 1st century Saints/Christians. Sorry we do not adhere to 16th century interpretations.

The Atonement It Is The Central Doctrine

Washing My Garment/Robe In His Blood

In His Eternal Debt/Grace

Anakin7

Edited May 26, 2017 by Anakin7

[pogi]

24 minutes ago, FormerLDS said:

You have missed the whole point.  When you're so accustomed to seeing eternal life as the reward of worthy behavior, it's difficult to think of eternal life in terms of a "gift", not a "reward".  

Focus on the words of Jesus Christ.  I'm 100% confident if you truly seek truth and ask Him to show you, you will see the truth.

Again, eternal life is explained as both a reward and a gift in the scriptures, see my last post.  I would love to hear a response.   

1 hour ago, FormerLDS said:

Friends, the "eternal life" Jesus Christ offers can be yours today, but you have to first allow eternal life to be a free gift, not the reward of worthy behavior.

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life." John 6:47  

What, to you, does it mean to believe on Jesus? Does believing in him mean that you have to accept Him as your Lord?  What does that mean to accept him as your Lord - what do the scriptures say about that?  Do you have to love Him?  What does that mean to love Him - what do the scriptures say about that?  If you do not accept him as your Lord as evidenced by obedience to Him, and you do not love him as evidenced by keeping his commandments, what evidence have you to show for your belief other than lip-service?

 

[RevTestament]

57 minutes ago, FormerLDS said:

You have missed the whole point.  When you're so accustomed to seeing eternal life as the reward of worthy behavior, it's difficult to think of eternal life in terms of a "gift", not a "reward".  

Focus on the words of Jesus Christ.  I'm 100% confident if you truly seek truth and ask Him to show you, you will see the truth.

Friends, the "eternal life" Jesus Christ offers can be yours today, but you have to first allow eternal life to be a free gift, not the reward of worthy behavior.

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life." John 6:47  

Again he who "believeth" Him is he who follows Him. To follow Him is to do His works. It is all over the NT. One cannot "believe" on Him merely by moving his lips and going home with "his gift." You are reading this with a limited context. You must understand the Hebrew context for the meaning of these words. It is readily apparent all over the NT.

John 14:12

12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that ^abelieveth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I ^bgo unto my ^cFather.

John 15:10

10 If ye ^akeep my commandments, ye shall abide in my ^blove; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and abide in his love.

When will this dastardly doctrine ever end? Why are people so attached to it?

 

John 12:50

50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I ^aspeak therefore, even as the ^bFather said unto me, so I ^cspeak.

Here you have Jesus calling a commandment life everlasting. Is this commandment the free gift of which you speak? I don't know how to get people past this ridiculous lineal interpretation that has overtaken so much of Christianity. Come back to Christ, and do His works if you love Him.