Jim Stiles Posted April 28, 2016 Share Posted April 28, 2016 Quote Matthew 25:31-46 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. What do you expect Jesus to do on the last day to those who murdered a band of traveling pioneers and tried to blame the deed on local Paiute Indians? Link to comment
boblloyd91 Posted April 29, 2016 Share Posted April 29, 2016 (edited) 3 hours ago, Jim Stiles said: What do you expect Jesus to do on the last day to those who murdered a band of traveling pioneers and tried to blame the deed on local Paiute Indians? Probably the same thing he will do to the mobs at Haun's mill that killed innocent women and children....or is that not a sin in your eyes because they were LDS? Edited April 29, 2016 by boblloyd91 Link to comment
Vance Posted April 29, 2016 Share Posted April 29, 2016 4 hours ago, Jim Stiles said: So much for Jesus rejecting death bed confessions. Actually, that scripture, in combination with other statements by Jesus, verifies that there is not such thing as death bed repentance. Notice the timing Jesus specified ie. "today". Also remember that AFTER Jesus' resurrection (THREE days later) he said to Mary, "touch me not for I have not yet ascended to my Father". So, clearly the thief did NOT go to heaven with Jesus on that day, because Jesus did not go to heaven on that day. It is very unfortunate that you don't know the scriptures as well as you think you do. 1 Link to comment
Vance Posted April 29, 2016 Share Posted April 29, 2016 4 hours ago, Jim Stiles said: What do you expect Jesus to do on the last day to those who murdered a band of traveling pioneers and tried to blame the deed on local Paiute Indians? According to your theology, nothing they did or didn't do affects their salvation. It is solely based upon the whim of God. But the Bible is rather clear that their judgment will be based upon their works. Link to comment
boblloyd91 Posted April 29, 2016 Share Posted April 29, 2016 4 hours ago, Jim Stiles said: What do you expect Jesus to do on the last day to those who murdered a band of traveling pioneers and tried to blame the deed on local Paiute Indians? Let's also not forget the Calvinism behind Apartheid, the massacre of the Pequots and other atrocities committed by the pilgrims. We could also compare Calvin ruling a city compared to Brigham Young governing. Yes mountain meadows was awful, but for horrendous behavior your own tradition beats us by a mile, which is why your posturing and finger pointing is extremely hypocritical and lacks any self awareness whatsoever. Alas like other anti Mormons all you can think about is how wrong we are and not see the beam in your own eye.... 1 Link to comment
Jim Stiles Posted April 29, 2016 Share Posted April 29, 2016 3 hours ago, boblloyd91 said: Let's also not forget the Calvinism behind Apartheid, the massacre of the Pequots and other atrocities committed by the pilgrims. We could also compare Calvin ruling a city compared to Brigham Young governing. Yes mountain meadows was awful, but for horrendous behavior your own tradition beats us by a mile, which is why your posturing and finger pointing is extremely hypocritical and lacks any self awareness whatsoever. Alas like other anti Mormons all you can think about is how wrong we are and not see the beam in your own eye.... Geneva at the time of Calvin had secular rulers. Calvin never held secular office. The worse racists in real Christianity would deny that blacks did anything in the pre-existence to deserve their fate. Even the Christian Identity people do not make this mistake. Quote “There is a reason why one man is born black and with other disadvantages, while another is born white with great advantages. The reason is that we once had an estate before we came here, and were obedient; more or less, to the laws that were given us there. Those who were faithful in all things there received greater blessings here, and those who were not faithful received less” (Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation 1:61). “NO NEUTRALS IN HEAVEN. There were no neutrals in the war in heaven. All took sides either with Christ or with Satan. Every man had his agency there, and men receive rewards here based upon their actions there, just as they will receive rewards hereafter for deeds done in the body. The Negro, evidently, is receiving the reward he merits” (Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation 1:65-66). Link to comment
boblloyd91 Posted April 29, 2016 Share Posted April 29, 2016 Regardless of the actual title Calvin had, he definitely was influential and had considerable control at the time in Geneva. A quick google search can verify that. Furthermore, though I don't agree with Joseph Fielding Smith's statement, how could that be worse than your Calvinism where people are already condemned before birth? In LDS theology at least agency and making the right choices can help a person change and have hope but in your demonic theology there is no hope and the person is tortured eternally if they have been capriciously selected by God for that purpose for his "glory". Link to comment
Jim Stiles Posted April 29, 2016 Share Posted April 29, 2016 5 hours ago, boblloyd91 said: Regardless of the actual title Calvin had, he definitely was influential and had considerable control at the time in Geneva. A quick google search can verify that. Furthermore, though I don't agree with Joseph Fielding Smith's statement, how could that be worse than your Calvinism where people are already condemned before birth? In LDS theology at least agency and making the right choices can help a person change and have hope but in your demonic theology there is no hope and the person is tortured eternally if they have been capriciously selected by God for that purpose for his "glory". JFS was supposed to have been a prophet from God. One requirement for a prophet from God is that he is right 100% of the time. The LDS church does an excellent job of poisoning the well so that if the member ever leaves, then he becomes an atheist. Just to make you mad: Quote Romans 9:10-16 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;) It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. Link to comment
boblloyd91 Posted April 29, 2016 Share Posted April 29, 2016 That doesn't make me mad at all I believe I've seen God's mercy In my life and the lives of my loved ones. I agree with the Apostle Paul that God chooses when he shows mercy not us. I just don't agree with the sick twist Calvinism puts on that. I also believe in John 3:16 and that God desires all to be saved. As far as the LDS church poisoning the well that's a pretty broad brush stroke to put on every person's. You're doing a good job of showing a psychological principle called projection where you're placing your own bitterness and hatred onto everyone and everything around you and making it a universal truth about who the LDS are. Link to comment
Okrahomer Posted April 29, 2016 Share Posted April 29, 2016 1 hour ago, Jim Stiles said: JFS was supposed to have been a prophet from God. One requirement for a prophet from God is that he is right 100% of the time. Have you thought this statement through at all? Being right 100% of the time seems like something only a perfect person could be. The only perfect person who has ever lived--and I think you probably would agree--is the Lord Jesus Christ. But even so, how does this square with Nathan the Prophet having to reverse his advice to King David--first telling David to build a House of the Lord; and then having to turn around and tell him that the Lord had not asked him to build a House? (see 2 Samuel 7) 1 Link to comment
Jim Stiles Posted April 29, 2016 Share Posted April 29, 2016 12 minutes ago, Okrahomer said: Have you thought this statement through at all? Being right 100% of the time seems like something only a perfect person could be. The only perfect person who has ever lived--and I think you probably would agree--is the Lord Jesus Christ. But even so, how does this square with Nathan the Prophet having to reverse his advice to King David--first telling David to build a House of the Lord; and then having to turn around and tell him that the Lord had not asked him to build a House? (see 2 Samuel 7) Nathan's command to build the temple, and his second command to not build the temple are not contradictory. Only propositions can contradict, and commands are not propositions. The 100% accuracy requirement has to do with prophesies of either future events or information that is not known to general audience of the prophecy (such as the pre-existence). Link to comment
Okrahomer Posted April 29, 2016 Share Posted April 29, 2016 3 minutes ago, Jim Stiles said: Nathan's command to build the temple, and his second command to not build the temple are not contradictory. Only propositions can contradict, and commands are not propositions. The 100% accuracy requirement has to do with prophesies of either future events or information that is not known to general audience of the prophecy (such as the pre-existence). OK...Let's see: "Build the temple", somehow does not contradict with "Don't build the temple." Right. 1 Link to comment
Vance Posted April 30, 2016 Share Posted April 30, 2016 5 hours ago, Jim Stiles said: The 100% accuracy requirement has to do with prophesies of either future events or information that is not known to general audience of the prophecy (such as the pre-existence). Moving the goal posts again I see. Quote One requirement for a prophet from God is that he is right 100% of the time. So Samuel was not a prophet. I Sam 13:8 ¶ And he tarried seven days, according to the set time that Samuel had appointed: but Samuel came not to Gilgal; and the people were scattered from him. Samuel lied to Saul about when he would arrive. So, by your standard Samuel was not a prophet. 1 Link to comment
Jim Stiles Posted April 30, 2016 Share Posted April 30, 2016 13 hours ago, Vance said: Moving the goal posts again I see. So Samuel was not a prophet. I Sam 13:8 ¶ And he tarried seven days, according to the set time that Samuel had appointed: but Samuel came not to Gilgal; and the people were scattered from him. Samuel lied to Saul about when he would arrive. So, by your standard Samuel was not a prophet. Samuel did what God told him to do in order to test Saul. Samuel was a prophet. Joseph Smith Jr. was not a prophet. Samuel never said that there were people living on the moon. Joseph Smith Jr. did. Link to comment
Jim Stiles Posted April 30, 2016 Share Posted April 30, 2016 21 hours ago, Okrahomer said: OK...Let's see: "Build the temple", somehow does not contradict with "Don't build the temple." Right. Go read a book. Preferably one without pictures. Consider yourself warned. You are one post away from being permanently banned. Link to comment
Okrahomer Posted May 1, 2016 Share Posted May 1, 2016 Hi, Jim I get your meaning, and I admit that I do have a few books with pictures in them; however, those are actually reserved for those all-too rare moments when my grandchildren want to read with papa. When my grandkids are helping, I seem to do OK with reading comprehension; but since I'm flying solo here on this board, it's entirely possible I've responded to one or two posts ignorantly. Ultimately, if--whether by lack of comprehension or otherwise--I've provoked you to anger then I sincerely apologize. 1 Link to comment
mikegriffith1 Posted May 1, 2016 Share Posted May 1, 2016 The NT's view on faith, works, and grace was summed up perfectly by Nephi: We are saved by grace, after all we can do. It's really that simple. Ultimately, we are indeed saved by grace, because no mortal can live a perfect life, but we must try to do the best we can. It is not a matter of a one-time verbal confession, and we are not once saved, always saved. We can fall away and lose our reward. The New Testament and the Early Church Fathers vs. The Protestant Doctrine of Salvation 2 Link to comment
Flyonthewall Posted May 1, 2016 Share Posted May 1, 2016 On 4/29/2016 at 3:21 PM, Jim Stiles said: Nathan's command to build the temple, and his second command to not build the temple are not contradictory. Only propositions can contradict, and commands are not propositions. The 100% accuracy requirement has to do with prophesies of either future events or information that is not known to general audience of the prophecy (such as the pre-existence). 4 And Jonah began to enter into the city a day’s journey, and he cried, and said, Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown. 10 ¶And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not. 1 Link to comment
Jim Stiles Posted May 1, 2016 Share Posted May 1, 2016 4 hours ago, Flyonthewall said: 4 And Jonah began to enter into the city a day’s journey, and he cried, and said, Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown. 10 ¶And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not. The prophecy was conditional from the very beginning. If Nineveh did not shape up and fly right, then they would be destroyed. Link to comment
Anakin7 Posted May 1, 2016 Share Posted May 1, 2016 (edited) Perhaps the conditional prophecy was predestined. Washing My Robes In The Blood Of The Lamb The Atonement It Is The Central Doctrine In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7 Edited May 1, 2016 by Anakin7 Link to comment
Anakin7 Posted May 1, 2016 Share Posted May 1, 2016 (edited) 1 hour ago, Anakin7 said: Edited May 1, 2016 by Anakin7 Link to comment
Flyonthewall Posted May 2, 2016 Share Posted May 2, 2016 On 5/1/2016 at 1:25 PM, Jim Stiles said: The prophecy was conditional from the very beginning. If Nineveh did not shape up and fly right, then they would be destroyed. Show me the conditional statement by Jonah. In fact, Jonah's behavior after the Lord "did it not" indicates very strongly that Jonah made no conditional statement. 2 Link to comment
Vance Posted May 3, 2016 Share Posted May 3, 2016 On 4/30/2016 at 10:27 AM, Jim Stiles said: Samuel did what God told him to do in order to test Saul. Samuel was a prophet. Joseph Smith Jr. was not a prophet. Samuel never said that there were people living on the moon. Joseph Smith Jr. did. You have been exposed as having a double standard. Samuel didn't live up to the word he had given to Saul. Saul must have had the same erroneous definition of a prophet, for when Samuel didn't show up at the time he appointed, Saul waited for some time, and then proceeded without that lying Samuel. Your erroneous definition of a prophet led Saul astray. 1 Link to comment
Vance Posted May 3, 2016 Share Posted May 3, 2016 3 hours ago, Flyonthewall said: Show me the conditional statement by Jonah. In fact, Jonah's behavior after the Lord "did it not" indicates very strongly that Jonah made no conditional statement. Being angry that God didn't destroy the city is quite an indication of what Jonah understood about his prophesy. 2 Link to comment
Anakin7 Posted May 3, 2016 Share Posted May 3, 2016 (edited) On May 1, 2016 at 4:20 AM, mikegriffith1 said: The NT's view on faith, works, and grace was summed up perfectly by Nephi: We are saved by grace, after all we can do. It's really that simple. Ultimately, we are indeed saved by grace, because no mortal can live a perfect life, but we must try to do the best we can. It is not a matter of a one-time verbal confession, and we are not once saved, always saved. We can fall away and lose our reward. The New Testament and the Early Church Fathers vs. The Protestant Doctrine of Salvation Still on hold waiting for Jim Stiles response to my LDS Saint/Christian Kryptonian Brother in Christ Jesus Mike Griffith link. Washing My Robes In The Blood Of The Lamb The Atonement It Is The Central Doctrine In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7 Edited May 3, 2016 by Anakin7 Link to comment
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