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Handbook Update, Gay Marriage, Apostasy, Resignations... (Merged Thread)

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I know that wasn't a personal indictment of me, Scott, but I thought I'd respond, nonetheless.  I confess, I don't put a lot of "who-what-when-where-why-and-how" journalism on my Blog, nor do I do any hard-hitting investigative reporting, because largely, I lack access to sources that a working journalist would have.  However, notwithstanding lack of direct access to sources, I would put at least some of my work up against that which appears in more "traditional" journalism outlets any day.  Something appearing in print is not necessarily a surefire marker of its quality, nor is something appearing on-line a surefire marker of the lack of it. There's good and bad journalism in every medium.  :)

Edited by Kenngo1969

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I know that wasn't a personal indictment of me, Scott, but I thought I'd respond, nonetheless.  I confess, I don't put a lot of "who-what-when-where-why-and-how" journalism on my Blog, nor do I do any hard-hitting investigative reporting, because largely, I lack access to sources that a working journalist would have.  However, notwithstanding lack of direct access to sources, I would put at least some of my work up against that which appears in more "traditional" journalism outlets any day.  Something appearing in print is not necessarily a surefire marker of its quality, nor is something appearing on-line a surefire marker of the lack of it. There's good and bad journalism in every medium.  :)

Oh, I would earnestly agree with this.

I guess, to express my point another way, some of what is regarded today as journalism is in reality Internet punditry. And it is often not even good punditry. Some seem to feel that they are excused from the obligation to be accurate because they are expressing an opinion.

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We just moved to a different building with a much larger chapel so our ward looks tiny to me now...but then we are in the new building because we now have 4 wards in two of our chapels in our stake.

Four wards. What an odious circumstance.

We just got word a third ward is being temporarily moved into our building, and now we can't even find a suitable time and place for choir practice.

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Are you in Gilbert? :)

 

I only ask because I have relatives that live there who have to get to church at least a half hour early to get a seat in the chapel.  They are building churches there as fast as they can from what I hear!

 

Nope.  I am in a little farm community of 3500 - 4000 in the middle of southern Idaho.  We have 3 wards and a branch and a set of full time missionaries. 

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Four wards. What an odious circumstance.

We just got word a third ward is being temporarily moved into our building, and now we can't even find a suitable time and place for choir practice.

 

Bummer isn't it they way the Church is shrinking.

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Bummer isn't it they way the Church is shrinking.

Well, it is definitely shrinking in my area.  We just went back to one stake (after having to split the stake 10 years ago and make two stakes).  Our stake is also making 2 wards out of 3 now when not that long ago, it was just the opposite.

 

I think a lot of it is economy based (they're all moving to Gilbert? :)), but I know of many who still live here and just no longer attend.  So, it's probably a combination of both.

 

I do know that many areas are growing by leaps and bounds, but how much of that is from new converts and not from new move ins?  That's what would be interesting to know.

Edited by ALarson

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Well, it is definitely shrinking in my area.  We just went back to one stake (after having to split the stake 10 years ago and make two stakes).  Our stake is also making 2 wards out of 3 now when not that long ago, it was just the opposite.

 

I think a lot of it is economy based (they're all moving to Gilbert? :)), but I know of many who still live here and just no longer attend.  So, it's probably a combination of both.

 

I do know that many areas are growing by leaps and bounds, but how much of that is from new converts and not from new move ins?  That's what would be interesting to know.

 

The thing that bothers me is those that equate growth or lack thereof with the truthfulness of the message.  When there is obvious growth there are those that point and say aha look how it is growing, it must be true.  When there is an obvious shrinking there are those that point and say aha if it were true why is it losing members?  If it were true everybody would be flocking to it or ssm must be right or else why are people leaving the Church over its stance on it.  In reality none of the above is a measure of whether the gospel of Jesus Christ as taught by the LDS Church is true or not.

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The thing that bothers me is those that equate growth or lack thereof with the truthfulness of the message.  When there is obvious growth there are those that point and say aha look how it is growing, it must be true.  When there is an obvious shrinking there are those that point and say aha if it were true why is it losing members?  If it were true everybody would be flocking to it or ssm must be right or else why are people leaving the Church over its stance on it.  In reality none of the above is a measure of whether the gospel of Jesus Christ as taught by the LDS Church is true or not.

I agree with you.

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Four wards. What an odious circumstance.

We just got word a third ward is being temporarily moved into our building, and now we can't even find a suitable time and place for choir practice.

We have heard that will be standard operating procedure for many places in Utah, they won't build a new building in a stake until they have three wards to fill it...though I have gotten this secondhand and may have it wrong and it is just our area. Land is rather expensive in our area compared to other cities surrounding us (it used to be one could tack on $50,000 for the same house as the city south of us...don't know if it is still as bad). Perhaps the Church is putting off building here until the problems causing the restrictions and higher prices are resolved.

Our ward is last so doesn't have a problem with choir practice. There is some necessary sharing of space though, even for us. Both buildings having four wards are quite large for classrooms but I don't know how other wards are handling their practices.

Edited by Calm

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I read this article this morning.  Karger should be embarrassed.  It's sloppy and biased journalism full of appeals to emotionality, made up statistics, and 'facts' about the LDS church that are easily proven wrong.

 

I don't doubt that people have left because of this issue but Karger does this topic a disservice by reporting on it so poorly.

 

Well said.  I agree, Bluebell.

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I'm aware of one member in our ward who doesn't come to church anymore because of this, but no name removal.  And the person only came once a month or so before that anyway.

 

I know several acquaintances who resigned because of the church's actions regarding Prop 8, but such resignations were most often the last straw in a long series of disagreements with the church.  I would presume that most such members were already "inactive," so their departure wouldn't be noticed as a loss from the ranks of active members in wards.  Even so, I think most of us would agree that Mr. Karger far overstates the numbers in this article.

Edited by Daniel2

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Bummer isn't it they way the Church is shrinking.

Heh. Yeah. If it keeps shrinking at this rate much longer, we may run out of space altogether.

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We have heard that will be standard operating procedure for many places in Utah, they won't build a new building in a stake until they have three wards to fill it...though I have gotten this secondhand and may have it wrong and it is just our area. Land is rather expensive in our area compared to other cities surrounding us (it used to be one could tack on $50,000 for the same house as the city south of us...don't know if it is still as bad). Perhaps the Church is putting off building here until the problems causing the restrictions and higher prices are resolved.

Our ward is last so doesn't have a problem with choir practice. There is some necessary sharing of space though, even for us. Both buildings having four wards are quite large for classrooms but I don't know how other wards are handling their practices.

My problem is I have a hard time getting them to come back for a practice once they've gone home from their meetings.

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My problem is I have a hard time getting them to come back for a practice once they've gone home from their meetings.

 

That seems to be a common complaint of ward choir directors.

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Bring snacks.

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My problem is I have a hard time getting them to come back for a practice once they've gone home from their meetings.

 

 

That seems to be a common complaint of ward choir directors.

 

 

Bring snacks.

Bribery? :huh::unknw:

 

;):D

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I hesitate to start another thread on the subject of homosexuality, but I thought this change would be of interest to many here.  I'm thinking I'll let people comment for a bit and then shut it down because this debate gets old fast (acknowledging my own part in that).

 

The definition of Apostasy in Handbook 1 has been updated to now list being in a same-gender marriage.  Here's the text from Section 6.7.3:

 

Apostasy
 
As used here, apostasy refers to members who:
 
1. Repeatedly act in clear, open, and deliberate public opposition to the Church or its leaders.
2. Persist in teaching as Church doctrine information that is not Church doctrine after they have been corrected by their bishop or a higher authority.
3. Continue to follow the teachings of apostate sects (such as those that advocate plural marriage) after being corrected by their bishop or a higher authority.
4. Are in a same-gender marriage.
5. Formally join another church and advocate its teachings.
 
 
And apostasy, as defined in this section, means that a disciplinary council is mandatory.
 
 

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Well this certainly draws an unmistakable line.

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5. Formally join another church and advocate its teachings.

 

And apostasy, as defined in this section, means that a disciplinary council is mandatory.

 

 

Just out of curiosity, how often does this happen?  If an inactive member is baptized into another church, is a disciplinary council held?  It sounds like it, if it is mandatory, but I'm wondering about the actual practice.

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Well, that certainly undermines the assertion that "there is no such thing as a same-sex marriage." If you can get ex'd for it, it exists.

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Just out of curiosity, how often does this happen?  If an inactive member is baptized into another church, is a disciplinary council held?  It sounds like it, if it is mandatory, but I'm wondering about the actual practice.

 

 

I think it's an active member joining another church and coming back and saying stuff, rare I am sure but it happens. As I said before a guy on our High Council attends the Catholic church but sometimes does his calling but he doesn't share any Catholic views in public, that I know of.

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Well, that certainly undermines the assertion that "there is no such thing as a same-sex marriage." If you can get ex'd for it, it exists.

True.  

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Well this certainly draws an unmistakable line.

It is good to have that clarification. I know people who believe a person in a legal same-sex marriage is committing neither fornication not adultery and thus should not be subject to church discipline. That the church labels it apostasy clarifies that it is not acceptable for members.

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How do we know about the change?   Has it been announced somewhere?

 

You have to not only join another Church, but you also have to advocate its teachings.   Seems to me that you could do the first, wtihout ever doing the second.

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How do we know about the change?   Has it been announced somewhere?

 

You have to not only join another Church, but you also have to advocate its teachings.   Seems to me that you could do the first, wtihout ever doing the second.

It's in the updated Church Handbook 1.

 

 

And apostasy, as defined in this section, means that a disciplinary council is mandatory.

It also means that in most cases a person excommunicated for this reason will need First Presidency approval for rebaptism. If someone is excommunicated for "moral" reasons a Stake President and Bishop can approve rebaptism. If it's for apostacy, it generally requires first presidency approval.

 

So the message seems to be clear. "GET OUT" and "STAY OUT".

 

This comes on the heels of Elder Ballard's talk at the World Conference of Families where he says that just as we shouldn't shun family, we shouldn't shun people who believe or act differently than we do. Excommunication is a pretty severe shunning.

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