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Handbook Update, Gay Marriage, Apostasy, Resignations... (Merged Thread)

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Fred Karger makes some pretty bold statements in this blog. 

 

"Insiders have indicated that over the last seven years the Mormon Church may have lost up to 1 million members because of all it did to end gay marriage. These formerly loyal Church members decided to side with their lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender (LGBT) family members and friends instead of their Church. Because of the way the Mormon Church works, you're either with them 100 percent on everything or you're out."

 

Really? I'm only 99.9% with the Church. Does that mean i'm out?  A million members? I wonder how he came up with such an exact figure.  :rolleyes:

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/fred-karger/mormon-church-bleeding-me_b_8299882.html

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The Huffington Post has been pretty bad of late for posting hit pieces on the Church. But I almost always know the article is biased just from poor journalistic practice of using the term "Mormon Church" with church capitalized. The journalistic ethics of the piece are rather suspect.

I suppose referencing "insiders" isn't necessarily bad practice as sometimes we want to protect the identities of those involved. But I'm pretty confident in the guess/assumption/speculation that Fred Karger has no "insider" friends in the Church.

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I read this article this morning.  Karger should be embarrassed.  It's sloppy and biased journalism full of appeals to emotionality, made up statistics, and 'facts' about the LDS church that are easily proven wrong.

 

I don't doubt that people have left because of this issue but Karger does this topic a disservice by reporting on it so poorly.

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I read this article this morning.  Karger should be embarrassed.  It's sloppy and biased journalism full of appeals to emotionality, made up statistics, and 'facts' about the LDS church that are easily proven wrong.

Well, that's about par for the course as far as modern journalism goes.

 

I actually don't know any members, personally, who have left because of the church's stance on gay marriage. Am I in the minority in that sense or do others here have long lists of disaffected members who left over the gay marriage stance?

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If the author posted here a firm "CFR" would be due

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Well, that's about par for the course as far as modern journalism goes.

 

I actually don't know any members, personally, who have left because of the church's stance on gay marriage. Am I in the minority in that sense or do others here have long lists of disaffected members who left over the gay marriage stance?

 

There are about 30,000 wards and branches in the world now. A million members would mean that there would be an average of 33 members who left from each unit. None from my ward.

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Well, that's about par for the course as far as modern journalism goes.

 

I actually don't know any members, personally, who have left because of the church's stance on gay marriage. Am I in the minority in that sense or do others here have long lists of disaffected members who left over the gay marriage stance?

Careful!

 

We have at least one esteemed regular poster on this board who is a journalist.

 

Whether you are in the minority or not, there are those here that know of such members who have left.

Edited by Senator

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There are about 30,000 wards and branches in the world now. A million members would mean that there would be an average of 33 members who left from each unit. None from my ward.

 

I'm aware of one member in our ward who doesn't come to church anymore because of this, but no name removal.  And the person only came once a month or so before that anyway.

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There are about 30,000 wards and branches in the world now. A million members would mean that there would be an average of 33 members who left from each unit. None from my ward.

 

I think we might need to take into consideration that SSM probably wouldn't cause people to remove their names from the church at the same rate outside of the US as inside.  I think it many countries where the church has wards, this isn't much of an issue.

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Careful!

 

We have at least one esteemed regular poster on this board who is a journalist.

 

Whether you are in the minority or not, there are those here that know of such members who have left.

I grant that there are, I just don't know any. Hence my asking for examples.

 

Journalists are amazing. My mother is one. But she'll be the first to tell you that the profession has edged a little more to the subjective opinion side of reporting and much further away from objective facts in recent years. You can reject the criticism, but there's certainly enough evidence to support it.

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I recognize that members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints who identify as gays and lesbians but who wish to remain faithful have been called upon to walk an exceptionally difficult path; many would say it's a uniquely difficult one.  They deserve our understanding.  I can understand how someone could feel strongly about the plight of our brothers and sisters who find themselves in this situation.  It's not easy to stand straight when stiff winds of political correctness blow in the opposite direction and when so many people tell us we're on the "wrong" side of the law and on the "wrong" side of history.

 

That said, if the Church of Jesus Christ were to sacrifice its unique doctrines with respect to marriage, the family, and the eternal destiny of the soul, it would become, essentially, simply another Protestant religion.  Right is right even if nobody believes it or does it, and wrong is wrong even if everybody believes it or does it.

Edited by Kenngo1969

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I recognize that members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints who identify as gays and lesbians but who wish to remain faithful have been called upon to walk an exceptionally difficult path; many would say it's a uniquely difficult one.  They deserve our understanding.  I can understand how someone could feel strongly about the plight of our brothers and sisters who find themselves in this situation.  It's not easy to stand straight when stiff winds of political correctness blow in the opposite direction and when so many people tell us we're on the "wrong" side of the law and on the "wrong" side of history.

 

That said, if the Church of Jesus Christ were to sacrifice its unique doctrines with respect to marriage, the family, and the eternal destiny of the soul, it would become, essentially, simply another Protestant religion.  Right is right even if nobody believes it or does it, and wrong is wrong even if everybody believes it or does it.

 

There are plenty of protestants who oppose gay marriage. Why would changing on this particular issue turn us into protestants? 

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There are plenty of protestants who oppose gay marriage. Why would changing on this particular issue turn us into protestants? 

While I don't speak for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as a whole, I cannot imagine that it would turn down any opportunity to stand shoulder-to-shoulder with our Protestant brothers and sisters in defense of traditional marriage.  (Indeed, in my view, one of the benefits of the current climate of antipathy toward religion is that many who now refuse to stand with Latter-day Saints because of sectarian differences quickly will reach the conclusion that "the enemy of my enemy [speaking metaphorically, not literally] is my friend.")  

 

That said, in my not-so-humble opinion, while there are many churches in which marriage is important, the Church of Jesus Christ stands alone in asserting that "gender is an essential characteristic of individual premortal, mortal, and eternal identity and purpose," and gender is an essential characteristic of marriage as ordained of God.  (And while I intend no disrespect to my brothers and sisters in the Community of Christ, one need look no further than that body to discover an organization that sacrificed distinctive doctrines and other traits in favor of becoming another flavor of Protestantism.)

Edited by Kenngo1969

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^^^^^^ what he said

 

While I don't speak for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as a whole, I cannot imagine that it would turn down any opportunity to stand shoulder-to-shoulder with our Protestant brothers and sisters in defense of traditional marriage.  (Indeed, in my view, one of the benefits of the current climate of antipathy toward religion is that many who now refuse to stand with Latter-day Saints because of sectarian differences quickly will reach the conclusion that "the enemy of my enemy [speaking metaphorically, not literally] is my friend.")  

 

That said, in my not-so-humble opinion, while there are many churches in which marriage is important, the Church of Jesus Christ stands alone in asserting that "gender is an essential characteristic of individual premortal, mortal, and eternal identity and purpose," and gender is an essential characteristic of marriage as ordained of God.  (And while I intend no disrespect to my brothers and sisters in the Community of Christ, one need look no further than that body to discover an organization that sacrificed distinctive doctrines and other traits in favor of becoming another flavor of Protestantism.)

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I'm a bit skeptical of the op claims. I have yet to see anyone leave the church on the matter. And while I don't doubt there will be some, the amounts mentioned in the article would be very noticeable in any ward and I've lived in several the past few years and have found none.

Real question is what need is here to lie about it? Are we supposed to get really scared and change our beliefs because we are afraid to lose people who dont agree with us? Our mission is to get others to believe the restored gospel and join with us. If they choose not to, they will be accountable just like we will be if we don't share the message.

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There are many who have and are leaving, but it's not over the gay marriage issue, or Prop 8.

A million? Hardly

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There are many who have and are leaving, but it's not over the gay marriage issue, or Prop 8.

A million? Hardly

I personally know of several who stopped attending during and after Prop 8 (two are members of my family).  But a million has to be a huge exaggeration!

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Well, that's about par for the course as far as modern journalism goes.

 

I actually don't know any members, personally, who have left because of the church's stance on gay marriage. Am I in the minority in that sense or do others here have long lists of disaffected members who left over the gay marriage stance?

Not long lists, but our Ward did lose nine members over the political war regarding gay marriage. I don't see how they could estimate the loss. I would guess that it adversely affected the missionary effort in some areas, but that should be only a temporary set back unless we have a GA go off the rails with some State restoration statute. Also, appointing three white men from Utah as Apostles will be forgotten within three months at least in America.

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I don't know of any active members who left over either gay marriage or Prop 8. 

 

Your mileage may vary.

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Careful!

 

We have at least one esteemed regular poster on this board who is a journalist.

 

I think this is probably a reference to me, so I will respond by saying that a lot of what passes today for journalism is not really journalism as I studied it college 35 years ago and as I have practiced it since then. Opining on a blog somewhere without observing what have traditionally been the professional standards, skills and ethics of the journalism profession is not something I will dignify by calling it journalism.

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"The Mormon Church just "celebrated" the 20th anniversary of its hateful "The Family: A Proclamation to the World." The proclamation was read by then Church President Gordon B. Hinckley at the General Relief Society Meeting on September 23, 1995 in Salt Lake City, Utah. That marks the day that the Mormon Church declared its war on gay marriage."

 

I found this statement in the blog to be offensive. The writer seems to have no understanding of God nor religion, the topic is debated as a political/secular issue.

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"The Mormon Church just "celebrated" the 20th anniversary of its hateful "The Family: A Proclamation to the World." The proclamation was read by then Church President Gordon B. Hinckley at the General Relief Society Meeting on September 23, 1995 in Salt Lake City, Utah. That marks the day that the Mormon Church declared its war on gay marriage."

I found this statement in the blog to be offensive. The writer seems to have no understanding of God nor religion, the topic is debated as a political/secular issue.

The author has fallen for a common narcissistic trap: "anytime anyone disagrees with me, it's hateful."

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All I can say is that in my ward seating is getting harder and harder to find.

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We just moved to a different building with a much larger chapel so our ward looks tiny to me now...but then we are in the new building because we now have 4 wards in two of our chapels in our stake.

Edited by Calm

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All I can say is that in my ward seating is getting harder and harder to find.

Are you in Gilbert? :)

 

I only ask because I have relatives that live there who have to get to church at least a half hour early to get a seat in the chapel.  They are building churches there as fast as they can from what I hear!

Edited by ALarson

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