Making A Statement About Free Byu

[MiserereNobis]

I am unable to quote posts. It must be John. (kidding) Suggestions??

 

Quoting is bringing up something from the past.  Tradition is something from the past.  Therefore, quoting is tradition.

 

You have rejected tradition, you heathen post-modernist, therefore God has punished you by removing your ability to quote.

 

QED

 

Nice to see you again, Mark!  I hope you get your issue fixed

 

(what's the logical fallacy in the first syllogism?)

Edited October 11, 2015 by MiserereNobis

[mfbukowski]

Calm:

Tried that just now- didn't work. Was using firefox, switched to chrome. No dice

[Five Solas]

 

...

My advice and my hope for people who feel the need to tell others about their personal apostasies is to be frank with their bishops, and to accept whatever comes of this, even if it means the end of their time at BYU...

 

Thank you, rongo.  Kinda funny you were ~ 4 paragraphs in before you finally got round to answering the question: Do you agree with mfbukowski's admonition in post #315?  ("One would think that anyone with any sense who knew about the policy would wait until the end of the semester to confess their apostasy.")

 

But after many keyboard strokes, you were able to get yourself there--that's the important part! 

:0)

 

--Erik

 

PS.  I respect your answer too. 

Edited October 11, 2015 by Five Solas

[mfbukowski]

Thank you, rongo.  Kinda funny you were ~ 4 paragraphs in before you finally got round to answering the question: Do you agree with mfbukowski's admonition in post #315?  ("One would think that anyone with any sense who knew about the policy would wait until the end of the semester to confess their apostasy.")

 

But after many keyboard strokes, you were able to get yourself there--that's the important part! 

:0)

 

--Erik

 

PS.  I respect your answer too. 

Total misrepresentation

 

I spent quite some time discussing how apostasy does not happen over night.

 

At no time did I advocate dishonesty.

[mfbukowski]

And I quote it again.  4 more rep points please. 

This is exactly the case.  When one is a bishop one learns that doubts and concerns are a normal part of faith in any religion.  Mother Theresa, now on her way to sainthood or perhaps there for the Catholics, confessed that she had numerous doubts about God's very existence.  

 

One does not wake up one morning deciding to leave the church.  It is a gradual process that could take months or years for some.  In the midst of an acute faith crisis it would be silly to just jump ship and leave the church- I think no reasonable person would do that.

 

When one has had doubts for months or years, a month or two should make no difference.  Absolute certainty that any belief is true or false does not come instantly and with certitude.  I myself had a strong spiritual experience which confirmed my belief in the church, but it took years of philosophical training to establish a base for me intellectually that such an experience could be a "rational"  way to make life-changing decisions.   Yes, I converted almost overnight, but it was after years of study to define my basic beliefs in general parameters of what I felt was a "rational" way to make such a decision. 

 

Nearly always it is impossible to define an exact moment when one knows for sure what course our lives should take.  The fact that virtually every bride and groom feel anxiety when "the moment" to commit comes demonstrates that such decisions do not come instantly.  Divorce also takes years in many cases, months in others.  Rarely does it change overnight.

 

Yet suppose it does happen overnight.  So you lose half a semester's work for your honesty?  Who would want to continue one more day on a course that one finally saw to be completely wrong regardless of a few credits yet unearned??

 

If I was a witness to corruption or some other drastic direct evidence of the church being "wrong" I would not ask for my tithing back, but I would leave immediately.  I would cut my losses and ascribe my 40 years of member ship as an interesting education in human psychology and go on with life without the church.  I would not regret the service I offered to others, but see that as something I did for which was positive, even if perhaps the theory behind those decisions were wrong.   In fact I would feel about the Mormon church the same I felt about the Catholic church and even my stint as a Communist atheist- thankful for the education I had received about myself and human institutions.

 

I will never understand those who would decry the loss of a portion of a semesters work, yet unearned because incomplete, when refusing to continue in an institution I was absolutely convinced, and certain, that the institution was wrong.

 

But I guess others here would.  ??

[Five Solas]

...  4 more rep points please. 

Every morning I wake up & ask myself - how can I be as humble as mfbukowski?

;0)

 

--Erik

[mfbukowski]

Every morning I wake up & ask myself - how can I be as humble as mfbukowski?

;0)

 

--Erik

Just keep trying and someday you may make it!  

 

[Five Solas]

Just keep trying and someday you may make it!  

 

If only I had as much to be humble about as you...

;0)

 

--Erik

[Scott Lloyd]

So you would hold ill-will towards JK were he to disagree with you on these points?

I don't know why you would presume that. Seems like quite the non sequitur.

[jkwilliams]

I don't know why you would presume that. Seems like quite the non sequitur.

I am past caring, as it seems pretty much impossible to carry on a civil conversation. I have tried, but I give up.

[mfbukowski]

I am past caring, as it seems pretty much impossible to carry on a civil conversation. I have tried, but I give up.

Promise?

[jkwilliams]

Promise?

No need to twist the knife, Mark. I will never understand your animosity, but I am sorry if I contributed.

[Scott Lloyd]

I am past caring, as it seems pretty much impossible to carry on a civil conversation. I have tried, but I give up.

Well let me just say for the record that disagreement does not automatically trigger ill will on my part.

Incidentally, sorry if my assent to the parrot remark offended you. I mainly just thought it was funny. I said it was apt because your last several rejoinders in the conversation had deteriorated into barbed one-liners, even though, as it became clear, I leaned more toward agreement with you.

Perhaps 'twould be best to leave it in the past.

Edited October 12, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[Kenngo1969]

 

I believe the current policy was put in place in 1993.  I won't place a link here, if you search Google for "Michelle Warner Kohler" you'll find the story behind the creation of the current policy.

Correction: We'll find her side of the story.

[jkwilliams]

Well let me just say for the record that disagreement does not automatically trigger I'll will on my part.

Incidentally, sorry if my assent to the parrot remark offended you. I mainly just thought it was funny. I said it was apt because your last several rejoinders in the conversation had deteriorated into barbed one-liners, even though, as it became clear, I leaned more toward agreement with you.

Perhaps 'twould be best to leave it in the past.

No ill will, Scott. It is just obvious that whatever I say will be taken as some kind of attack. I am tired of it.

[mfbukowski]

No ill will, Scott. It is just obvious that whatever I say will be taken as some kind of attack. I am tired of it.

I guess this happens on its own without you giving any impression that you are attacking the church.

 

I am sorry that we persecute you, apparently without cause.

 

I wonder how that all started?  I guess we all just have evil natures and wanted to bully someone?

[jkwilliams]

I guess this happens on its own without you giving any impression that you are attacking the church.

I am sorry that we persecute you, apparently without cause.

I wonder how that all started? I guess we all just have evil natures and wanted to bully someone?

You're right. I really am that evil.

[ttribe]

Promise?

 

 

I guess this happens on its own without you giving any impression that you are attacking the church.

 

I am sorry that we persecute you, apparently without cause.

 

I wonder how that all started?  I guess we all just have evil natures and wanted to bully someone?

 

Looks pretty nasty and one-sided right now.

[ttribe]

 

Correction: We'll find her side of the story.

 

Good point. I should have been more specific.

[Teancum]

Promise?

Why you acting like such a jerk to John on this thread?

Edited October 12, 2015 by Teancum

[Tacenda]

Why you acting like such a jerk to John on this thread?

Yeah between him & Robert...

[Senator]

I believe the current policy was put in place in 1993.  I won't place a link here, if you search Google for "Michelle Warner Kohler" you'll find the story behind the creation of the current policy.

Sad

[sunstoned]

Promise?

This comes across as mean spirited.

[Sleeper Cell]

They agreed and signed a contract before their faith change most likely, I'm thinking.

Below is an actual case, but luckily this person was able to transfer their transcripts. http://thestudentreview.org/?p=410

 

The operative phrase being “they agreed.”  It is hardly unusual for one party to a contract to later have “buyers remorse.”  Changing one’s mind does not invalidate one’s contractual obligations -- especially after reaping the benefits for 2-3 years.  Essentially the student is trying to hold BYU to a contract, which they, themselves, refuse to honor.  Why is it OK for one party to a contract to change his/her mind about upholding their obligations but not OK for the second party to change its mind?    

 

It is not a matter of BYU putting constraints on “kids” as it “relates to their choice of religion” as stated in the OP.  The student/victims put the constraints on themselves when they freely agreed to accept them.  

 

It is not unreasonable to argue that BYU should not have such a policy or that it be modified.  I, myself, favor (on a case by case basis) allowing such students to finish the semester and be given counseling and other assistance to facilitate their transfer.  (I am open to other possible modifications).  My primary argument is that this policy does not infringe on the student’s religious freedom, because the student voluntarily accepted the policy in exchange for being allowed to attend BYU.