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Stone holm

Handing Ammunition To Anti's

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Internet has already begun questioning the calling of the three new Apostles. I am sure they are fine, righteous men. The Church remains unpredictable in doing the predictable. Time marches on.

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Internet has already begun questioning the calling of the three new Apostles. I am sure they are fine, righteous men. The Church remains unpredictable in doing the predictable. Time marches on.

So I'm wondering whether or not iyou think it's the Lord who gave the anti"s the ammunition?

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Internet has already begun questioning the calling of the three new Apostles. I am sure they are fine, righteous men. The Church remains unpredictable in doing the predictable. Time marches on.

 

I watched the news conference at 4:30 PM... and I was absolutely impressed with each of the new apostles.  They took questions from the Press and their answers off the cuff were knowledgeable, sincere, humble, and showed that they were well qualified, and familiar with the "world" due to previous callings that took them all over the world to different cultures/peoples... some for lengthy periods of time. 

I'm sure that there are those that will carp about all three being white and from Utah... one poster here did that immediately... the news conference spoke volumes... In the past weeks of speculation, I had thought how I'd like to see someone from outside the U.S. be called... but the news conference answered that point for me...

I'm going to enjoy them I know...

 

GG

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Nothing short of locking them in hell with their master will get them to stop attacking no matter what ammunition they find.

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So I'm wondering whether or not iyou think it's the Lord who gave the anti"s the ammunition?

Not my place to judge, if the Lord wants to have the quorum of the Twelve in this time of racial and ethnic strife to be all of European descent and primarily from the Rocky Mountain West, it's His call. So I guess, the answer is the Lord handed them the ammunition because it's the first thing one notices when their pictures are posted together, namely they are all white Caucasians. The non-Mormon press are all saying it was predictable. I would have predicted that we would have had one from South of the border and possibly an Asian, but the Church leadership in these times did the unpredictable and called three Utahns of European descent. Probably the safe bet, look what happened to the Catholics when they ventured away from their European base.

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Yeah, you know all of us people from South American extraction can't be trusted. We're all a bunch of pseudo-commie illegals trying to jump the border. ;) 

 

(Quasi-true given my family's background in Liberation theology and political refugee status)

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Yeah, you know all of us people from South American extraction can't be trusted. We're all a bunch of pseudo-commie illegals trying to jump the border. ;)

 

(Quasi-true given my family's background in Liberation theology and political refugee status)

 

I think Stoneholm was talking about the reaction of the world to the choice of Pope, not his feelings about the national origin of the man.   Or is it a South American thing to jump to false conclusions?  Don't worry, one of my daughters in law is of Brazilian ancestry, and I love everyone south of the border.  And north of it, too, for that matter.  Not so sure sometimes about the ones in between, however.  They can be so... odd.

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Not my place to judge, if the Lord wants to have the quorum of the Twelve in this time of racial and ethnic strife to be all of European descent and primarily from the Rocky Mountain West, it's His call.

 

Do you find much racial and ethnic strife in the church?  I've seen very little in my experience.  If the world is in a time of racial and ethnic strife, perhaps they could learn something from us.

 

... it's the first thing one notices when their pictures are posted together, namely they are all white Caucasians.

 

The first thing you do when you see a group of people is determine the racial makeup?  It's really the first thing that springs to your mind? That's just sad.

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Internet has already begun questioning the calling of the three new Apostles. I am sure they are fine, righteous men. The Church remains unpredictable in doing the predictable. Time marches on.

 

Just so I know where to come down on this issue is it the anti's church or God's?

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If only God cared about being politically correct....  

 

 

:P

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ALL of the original Apostles looked like modern day Palestinians. I'll leave it to the Lord whom he calls.

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Just so I know where to come down on this issue is it the anti's church or God's?

For those who are intimidated and made ashamed by the critics of the Church who stand at the windows of the great and spacious building, the critics may not be the nominal leaders of the Church but they're the ones who should be calling the shots.

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Do you find much racial and ethnic strife in the church?  I've seen very little in my experience.  If the world is in a time of racial and ethnic strife, perhaps they could learn something from us.

 

 

The first thing you do when you see a group of people is determine the racial makeup?  It's really the first thing that springs to your mind? That's just sad.

Yes, in these times.

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I think Stoneholm was talking about the reaction of the world to the choice of Pope, not his feelings about the national origin of the man.   Or is it a South American thing to jump to false conclusions?  Don't worry, one of my daughters in law is of Brazilian ancestry, and I love everyone south of the border.  And north of it, too, for that matter.  Not so sure sometimes about the ones in between, however.  They can be so... odd.

Partly true. The new Pope has shaken up the Catholic Church, partially because he was an outsider who preached Christ instead of culture. Culture is a dominant thing inside the great and spacious building it tends to dominate group think. That is why in the history of scientific change paradigm shift frequently comes at the hands of scientists from a neighbouring discipline not intimidated by cultural orthodoxy. In the case of Christ, His greatest opponents were those in control of cultural orthodoxy at the time.

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Partly true. The new Pope has shaken up the Catholic Church, partially because he was an outsider who preached Christ instead of culture. Culture is a dominant thing inside the great and spacious building it tends to dominate group think. That is why in the history of scientific change paradigm shift frequently comes at the hands of scientists from a neighbouring discipline not intimidated by cultural orthodoxy. In the case of Christ, His greatest opponents were those in control of cultural orthodoxy at the time.

Similar thing can be said of Joseph Smith, Jr.

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Partly true. The new Pope has shaken up the Catholic Church, partially because he was an outsider who preached Christ instead of culture. Culture is a dominant thing inside the great and spacious building it tends to dominate group think. That is why in the history of scientific change paradigm shift frequently comes at the hands of scientists from a neighbouring discipline not intimidated by cultural orthodoxy. In the case of Christ, His greatest opponents were those in control of cultural orthodoxy at the time.

 

I know a few good, very active Catholics (of which 3DOP is one here on this forum) who very much would disagree that Pope Francis has shaken up the Catholic church because he is preaching Christ instead of culture.

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I know a few good, very active Catholics (of which 3DOP is one here on this forum) who very much would disagree that Pope Francis has shaken up the Catholic church because he is preaching Christ instead of culture.

There's that old adage about LDS believing their prophet is fallible but not really. And the Catholics who believe their pope is infallible but not really.

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There's that old adage about LDS believing their prophet is fallible but not really. And the Catholics who believe their pope is infallible but not really.

 

Very true.

 

But my point was that what we sometimes present as 'fact' is not fact at all but just our opinion, subject to all the strengths and weaknesses of such.

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I think Stoneholm was talking about the reaction of the world to the choice of Pope, not his feelings about the national origin of the man.   Or is it a South American thing to jump to false conclusions?  Don't worry, one of my daughters in law is of Brazilian ancestry, and I love everyone south of the border.  And north of it, too, for that matter.  Not so sure sometimes about the ones in between, however.  They can be so... odd.

 

Oh, it's absolutely a South American thing to jump to conclusions. Look at what happened when Argentina concluded that the Falklands were their patrimony.

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If only God cared about being politically correct....  

 

 

:P

Yep.  I just posted this in Scott Lloyd's thread about the new Apostles, but it seems appropriate here, too: God doesn't care if we think He's racist, sexist, homophobic, otherwise bigoted, or politically incorrect.  He really meant it when He said in the scriptures, "I am able to do mine own work."

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Yep.  I just posted this in Scott Lloyd's thread about the new Apostles, but it seems appropriate here, too: God doesn't care if we think He's racist, sexist, homophobic, otherwise bigoted, or politically incorrect.  He really meant it when He said in the scriptures, "I am able to do mine own work."

Absolutely agree. And when I hear someone use that quote like you have, I say then that's fine that He doesn't need my help with this one. The thing that is good to know when the Church says it can do without your help is to look upon that as liberating, so you can devote your efforts to something else and know that what needs to be done is going to be done. It may take a century or so like extending the Priesthood, but eventually it gets done.

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Oh, it's absolutely a South American thing to jump to conclusions. Look at what happened when Argentina concluded that the Falklands were their patrimony.

 

well, that could have been seen as a calculated political move to gain the ruling junta some sympathy from the people, if Britain had decided not to contest the issue.  Or if Maggie Thatcher had not been PM.

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Absolutely agree. And when I hear someone use that quote like you have, I say then that's fine that He doesn't need my help with this one. The thing that is good to know when the Church says it can do without your help is to look upon that as liberating, so you can devote your efforts to something else and know that what needs to be done is going to be done. It may take a century or so like extending the Priesthood, but eventually it gets done.

I don't see anything wrong with an Elder Dube, or an Elder Sitati, or an Elder Alonso, or anyone else of color, being ordained to the apostleship, and I doubt the vast majority of members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints do either ... if that's who the Lord wants.  I think God could get that through even President Thomas S. Monson's thick skull, if that's the case.  If you doubt that, I suppose we'll simply have to agree to disagree. 

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I don't see anything wrong with an Elder Dube, or an Elder Sitati, or an Elder Alonso, or anyone else of color, being ordained to the apostleship, and I doubt the vast majority of members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints do either ... if that's who the Lord wants.  I think God could get that through even President Thomas S. Monson's thick skull, if that's the case.  If you doubt that, I suppose we'll simply have to agree to disagree.

I don't disagree. I don't think the Lord micro managed Pres Monson on these calls, in fact I don't think He really managed him much at all. And in a case of weak inspiration the proper thing to do is to fall back on protocol and pick good men well known to the Church of the same basic flavour and texture as the other Apostles. Unless the Lord strongly inspires you to do otherwise, don't rock the boat or the Church. Use the virtual diversity of having had Church service assignments in other cultures rather than calling someone from that culture.

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I don't disagree. I don't think the Lord micro managed Pres Monson on these calls, in fact I don't think He really managed him much at all. And in a case of weak inspiration the proper thing to do is to fall back on protocol and pick good men well known to the Church of the same basic flavour and texture as the other Apostles. Unless the Lord strongly inspires you to do otherwise, don't rock the boat or the Church. Use the virtual diversity of having had Church service assignments in other cultures rather than calling someone from that culture.

Why don't you think that God "managed the prophet much at all"?

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