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ERayR

Shooting In Oregon

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Okay, look guys, I am fed up to the gizzard with people making outlandish and ignorant statements about weapons.  If I've offended you in my reaction, I apologize, but I will not back off what I said about knives vs guns, or the inherent authority of a gun pointed in your face. 

 

These days I don't go to the movie, the mall, the restaurant, or the bank without packing heat.  I used to disregard the potential threats out there, but since all these most recent mass events have been happening practically everywhere, and it looks like the nutjobs are really into the copycat thing, I have been making sure that I am not going to be a victim.  It's a paranoid thing to expect to be shot or stabbed while going about one's business, and I actually don't expect it.  I stay away from dens of iniquity (except for my bank, I still need to go there occasionally), but guess where all the mass murders have been happening?  That's right, in the most innocent unexpected places.

 

I will try to force myself to stay out of this thread from this post onwards.  I am still not finding it easy to get to sleep at night, and here I am sabotaging my attempt to get back to a reasonable sleep routine by staying up late posting here.  So please don't expect me to answer here.  I've said all I ought to have said in any event.

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I've already answered this completely false claim (in red), so I won't ask you to do a CFR on a negative.   Check my response to strappinglad.  Or you could Google the Rwandan Genocide -- the primary weapon used was the machete. 

 

And yes, if you bring a knife to a gunfight you will get your head handed to you in short order, but nobody in that classroom had a gun, so he could have used a knife to kill that many people in the time he used to kill them with a gun.  It takes just a second to slash someone's throat.

 

And why do you bring up an irrelevancy like a sword or a bow?  All he needed for that crowd was a K-Bar.  Actually, all he needed was a spear.  A standoff weapon, no need to get up close and personal. 

 

Just stop it about the gun vs knife debate.  Identify the nutjobs and put them into proactive custody, like they used to do before bleeding hearts threw them out onto the streets.

 

The Rwandan genocide was no perpetrated by one maniac running around with a machete either who surprised a bunch of people and started cutting them.

 

Also, you are being ridiculous about the knife. Have you ever been in a situation (real or simulated) where you have tried to slash someones throat or killed with a knife. Even if the victims lined up and bared their throats the knife would still be slower. Unless you have the element of surprise a throat slash is very hard to do. People naturally put their arms in the way and bleeding out takes a long time. The best way to kill quickly with a knife is a stab into a vital organs. Slashes may kill but it will not be quick.

 

You do realize that crowds run when attacked right? If some moron showed up with a spear he might be able to get one person before people started running. If two people were willing to fight he would be a goner. A spear does not work against a group of people unless you have a formation of them. Get in close and a ranged weapon is useless. Works just as well with a club or a baton. While it goes against natural instincts if you have to fight your best move is to get in close.

 

 

Are you kidding me?  I am rather fond of those videos on YouTube showing convenience store clerks ignoring guns pointed at them by robbers, who then proceed to beat at the robber with whatever is available, whereupon the robber just runs away.  That genre of video is called "Instant Karma" by the way.  But they don't show the surveillance videos of clerks who just hand the money over, or the bank tellers who just fill the bag with cash in the face of a gun, which happens far more frequently.  Despite what you say, most of us take a gun in the face as a genuine threat and do not pause to psychoanalyse the crook to determine if he REALLY wants to pull the trigger or not.  In fact, if you work at a convenience store, I think most such people are instructed to just hand the cash over, no questions asked.  Years ago I was in fact acquainted with a convenience store owner whose night clerk beat off an armed robber with a telephone handset.  He later told her next time just hand the damned money over and don't do heroics like that ever again.

 

But I agree that missionaries should not go about their work armed, as a general rule.  Although there is that pesky scripture where Jesus told his Apostles they should sell their cloaks and buy a sword.  Not sure what to make of that one.

 

Yeah, but a crazy person who shoots up a school is not in the same mindset as a nervous idiot trying to get a couple hundred bucks for meth from a 7-11. One is there to kill; the other is banking on the threat. I wouldn't call the bluff as it is just not worth it but it probably is a bluff.

 

They are right to hand over the money. If someone pulls a gun on me I'm handing over my wallet. You only fight someone with a gun if you think they plan to kill you. If you are close (i.e. they are dumb enough to put the gun right against you) it is easy to deflect before they can fire. If you not right in front of them the best defense is to run and not in a straight line. Most people who have fired a gun have only shot non-moving targets.

 

Boguser words were never written, strapping.  There is nothing special about the mass murders in the US.  In other countries it's suicide bombers.  A knife-wielding person can kill just as well as a pistol packer.  Knives, for a start, do not run out of edge or point the way a pistol runs out of ammo.  People make a huge mistake when they think that it is somehow safer to face a knife than a gun.  One of my sons was at his favorite bar one night (yes, he's a redneck), and a guy with a knife came in, stabbed his friend to death, and as my son and another friend of his attempted to stop him, the killer stabbed them once each, putting them both into the hospital.  Then he ran out of the bar and was eventually captured.  My son and the other guy survived.  My son was wearing a leather jacket so the wound wasn't too bad, but the killer could have struck at him more than once and might have killed him too.  All this happened in just fifteen seconds or so.  Worse, nobody realized that the guy was being killed because the knife attack was silent.  Eric saw what was happening, but was unsure how to interpret it at first.  He asked the killer, "Is that a knife?" whereupon he said "Yes, it is!" and stabbed Eric in the ribs.

 

The handgun is loud, easily detected when used.  Sure you can shoot quickly, but many people can't hit the side of a barn with only one shot.  In the time this guy had in the classroom, you'd think he could have killed them all, if it were so darned efficient.  But it isn't a magic weapon.  Sure you can do a lot of damage to targets right in front of you, but at longer distances it gets much harder unless you have trained and practiced a LOT.  Surely you know of stories where trained police officers empty their 15-round magazines at a perp and get maybe two or three hits?  Or none?

 

In March 2014 in a train station in Yunnan, China, ten men wielding knives and cleavers killed 29 people and wounded 130.  Read about it here: http://www.cnn.com/2014/03/01/world/asia/china-railway-attack/index.html   China has experienced a number of mass knife attacks in recent years.  Are you any less dead if you get killed by a knife?  It's like Hiroshima and Nagasaki: it is so terrible to be killed by nuclear bombs, and we make a huge deal about these two events, but the Operation Meetinghouse firebombing of Tokyo on the night of 9 March 1945 was the single deadliest air raid of World War II, greater than Dresden, Hiroshima, or Nagasaki as single events.  Virtually nobody remembers Tokyo, but Hiroshima and Nagasaki get all the tears, as if it were somehow worse to be nuked.  It isn't!  Or how about the Rape of Nanking?  The Japanese Army killed up to 300,000 Chinese civilians over a six week period after the surrender of the city on Dec 13, 1937, and over a four year period from 1945 to 1949 the Soviets effectively murdered nearly half of the 500,000 German civilians they took for forced labor in 1945, and who even knows about it or cares?  My future father-in-law died in that little holocaust, by the way.

 

But let some little baby nutjob kill a few people in a classroom, and instead of wanting to deal with the problem of nutjobs, they want to take the tools away that the nutjob used!  What if he had used knives?  Would President Obama had called for knife control laws to be strengthened?  Fat chance.

 

No, I get tired of airheads attacking the wrong problem and expecting to change the results. As a contrary example, the right response to high automobile accident deaths is to make cars safer, not to outlaw cars. 

 

Don't bother answering me with even more bogus "facts".  I am a professionally trained killer, er, combat soldier (courtesy of the United States Army), and give me a gun or give me a knife (or for that matter a baseball bat), and I know I could do a lot of damage regardless of the tool.  In fact, I might even prefer a knife because my acts would go under the radar for a lot longer before the cops were called.

 

And yes!  I am really ticked off.  Not at you in particular, strapping, but at the complete lack of critical thinking skills on evidence among the people (our politicians) who ought to freaking know better, but who simply repeat politically-correct mantras as if doing what has been proven not to work before had a hope of solving the problem.

 

Please ban me from the thread before I say something that will offend someone.  It's probably too late.

 

I'm outta here.

 

Yeah, you've summed up the weakness of a handgun. Your one example of knives and cleavers being used for mass butchery was again, a group attack. One person just cannot kill efficiently enough. If that is the fight I am thinking of a few blocked escape while the rest killed. To kill multiple people with knives you generally need a bunch of people with knives. A lone nutjob can't do with a knife what they can do with a gun. Again, I am not opposed to the Second Amendment or the right to bear arms but guns are efficient killers. They are more efficient then knives. A lone nutjob cannot kill a dozen people with a knife the way he can in the right circumstances with a gun.

 

 

Okay, look guys, I am fed up to the gizzard with people making outlandish and ignorant statements about weapons.  If I've offended you in my reaction, I apologize, but I will not back off what I said about knives vs guns, or the inherent authority of a gun pointed in your face. 

 

These days I don't go to the movie, the mall, the restaurant, or the bank without packing heat.  I used to disregard the potential threats out there, but since all these most recent mass events have been happening practically everywhere, and it looks like the nutjobs are really into the copycat thing, I have been making sure that I am not going to be a victim.  It's a paranoid thing to expect to be shot or stabbed while going about one's business, and I actually don't expect it.  I stay away from dens of iniquity (except for my bank, I still need to go there occasionally), but guess where all the mass murders have been happening?  That's right, in the most innocent unexpected places.

 

I will try to force myself to stay out of this thread from this post onwards.  I am still not finding it easy to get to sleep at night, and here I am sabotaging my attempt to get back to a reasonable sleep routine by staying up late posting here.  So please don't expect me to answer here.  I've said all I ought to have said in any event.

 

I hope it works for you but a gun is not some magical guarantee that you will not be a victim. In a mass shooting situation you won't have time to draw, aim, and fire before you are likely either dead, wounded, or did not get hit. These nutjobs rarely pause to read a manifesto on why they are here to give others a chance to draw, load, take off the safety, and fire. Again, I have done simulations of this with many people as both the aggressor and the victim and it is just not reasonable to expect time to react. One of the fundamentals of fighting is that action beats reaction. In ideal conditions you are unlikely to have time to use the weapon and with the noise, panic, and adrenaline you will be nowhere near ideal conditions. If you do get to the weapon will you be able to aim and hit the attacker in the confusion?

 

This is part of why I do not carry a firearm.

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The idea that " it does not matter how you kill someone you are still dead" is true on the individual level but false on a more practical one.

 

A gun lets you kill more people more quickly then any other weapon. You do not hear about mass knife killings or mass clubbed-to-death killings because it is difficult to pull off. A gun is an equalizer because it takes little training to use and can kill in rapid succession. I have trained to fight with a knife and if I ran into a room filled with people and started killing as quickly as I could (thrusts at vital organs) a numbskull with a gun could kill more people much faster.

 

I am not anti-Second Amendment but some people are in denial about how guns change the equation of violence. There is a reason they were a military game changer. In the past it took extensive training to master the spear or the sword or the bow and it took extensive skill and strength training to use them effectively. Guns are much easier to use effectively.

 

With one exception that everybody seems to be missing.  Odd too because it is used quite often .  That would be a bomb.

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The Rwandan genocide was no perpetrated by one maniac running around with a machete either who surprised a bunch of people and started cutting them.

 

Also, you are being ridiculous about the knife. Have you ever been in a situation (real or simulated) where you have tried to slash someones throat or killed with a knife. Even if the victims lined up and bared their throats the knife would still be slower. Unless you have the element of surprise a throat slash is very hard to do. People naturally put their arms in the way and bleeding out takes a long time. The best way to kill quickly with a knife is a stab into a vital organs. Slashes may kill but it will not be quick.

 

You do realize that crowds run when attacked right? If some moron showed up with a spear he might be able to get one person before people started running. If two people were willing to fight he would be a goner. A spear does not work against a group of people unless you have a formation of them. Get in close and a ranged weapon is useless. Works just as well with a club or a baton. While it goes against natural instincts if you have to fight your best move is to get in close.

 

 

 

Yeah, but a crazy person who shoots up a school is not in the same mindset as a nervous idiot trying to get a couple hundred bucks for meth from a 7-11. One is there to kill; the other is banking on the threat. I wouldn't call the bluff as it is just not worth it but it probably is a bluff.

 

They are right to hand over the money. If someone pulls a gun on me I'm handing over my wallet. You only fight someone with a gun if you think they plan to kill you. If you are close (i.e. they are dumb enough to put the gun right against you) it is easy to deflect before they can fire. If you not right in front of them the best defense is to run and not in a straight line. Most people who have fired a gun have only shot non-moving targets.

 

 

Yeah, you've summed up the weakness of a handgun. Your one example of knives and cleavers being used for mass butchery was again, a group attack. One person just cannot kill efficiently enough. If that is the fight I am thinking of a few blocked escape while the rest killed. To kill multiple people with knives you generally need a bunch of people with knives. A lone nutjob can't do with a knife what they can do with a gun. Again, I am not opposed to the Second Amendment or the right to bear arms but guns are efficient killers. They are more efficient then knives. A lone nutjob cannot kill a dozen people with a knife the way he can in the right circumstances with a gun.

 

 

 

I hope it works for you but a gun is not some magical guarantee that you will not be a victim. In a mass shooting situation you won't have time to draw, aim, and fire before you are likely either dead, wounded, or did not get hit. These nutjobs rarely pause to read a manifesto on why they are here to give others a chance to draw, load, take off the safety, and fire. Again, I have done simulations of this with many people as both the aggressor and the victim and it is just not reasonable to expect time to react. One of the fundamentals of fighting is that action beats reaction. In ideal conditions you are unlikely to have time to use the weapon and with the noise, panic, and adrenaline you will be nowhere near ideal conditions. If you do get to the weapon will you be able to aim and hit the attacker in the confusion?

 

This is part of why I do not carry a firearm.

 

You of course do understand that knives and guns are not the only two alternatives.

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You of course do understand that knives and guns are not the only two alternatives.

Of course and the bomb you mentioned is another alternative. It does take a certain level of planning and know how to be an effective bomber so it is rarely the weapon of the "suicide by police with a high body count type". It is usually used more organized terrorists or the occasional crazy lone bomber. Carrying a firearm is also unlikely to help you stop a bomber.

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While bombs are relatively easy to make if you know what you're doing. It's a pretty big BANG if you don't.

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That bomb thing didn't work out so well for Mark Hoffman. He did pull it off once but twice was not in the cards.

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