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ERayR

Shooting In Oregon

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I am watching the news reporting on a mass shooting at Umpqua Community College.  Reports are at least 20 people shot.

 

Where do all the mental deficients come from?

 

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I see they are saying that at least 10 have been killed.  :(

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I am watching the news reporting on a mass shooting at Umpqua Community College.  Reports are at least 20 people shot.

 

Where do all the mental deficients come from?

Latest reports are that the shooter asked his victims what their religions were before he shot them.

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Total stands right now at 13 dead and 20 injured.

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My fellow posters...

 

It is 6:00 PM Oregon time... the Sheriff's dept has just issued a report...

 

The shooter was a 26 year old male... can't  remember his name... he is dead following an exchange of fire with police.

 

His victims:  10 dead... 7 wounded... those are the official numbers issued this evening.  Of the 7 wounded, 3 females are serious to critical with one fighting for her life... two have had surgery, the third was in surgery starting about an hour ago.

 

I hope you will join me in remembering in prayer the families of these victims that were killed, and those injured with their families.

 

GG.... Gleneden Beach, Oregon

 

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Am watching a live news conference.

 

The sheriff's words were striking and powerful.  He refused to name the shooter and stated he would never speak the shooter's name.  He went on to make some very striking comments surrounding that. It was very impactful. His concerns and energies lie with the victims and their families.

 

I live in Oregon and have no personal ties to UCC (as far as I know), but did have ties to the shooting here at Reynolds High School earlier this year, so this affects me differently than hearing this kind of news in the past.

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I am watching the news reporting on a mass shooting at Umpqua Community College.  Reports are at least 20 people shot.

 

Where do all the mental deficients come from?

 

With all respect, I do not think this is a lack of intellect, ERay. I would suggest it is a problem of the heart. It is a symptom of interior selfishness. Of unchecked ego. We are living in a world that says it is unhealthy to have unfulfilled desires. The desire is paramount. I feel that I am of another sex than that which my body is? I change it. There is a recent case of some disturbed woman who thought she should have been born blind. She found some psychologist who reportedly encouraged her "desires" to make her body match her soul. She blinded herself with some kind of detergent.

 

Did this guy go on a mission? I met some nice missionaries from the Church today. They were tracting as you LDS call it. They cared about me. They were outside of themselves. It didn't enter their minds to shoot anybody today. We need religion in our lives. We need faith in a merciful but just God who rewards good behavior and punishes the bad. Did this guy go to confession last week? Is he a returned missionary? Young people today are being messed up with a tax funded secular catechism that abhors faith based morality and motives for life. What do young people have to live for who believe the departments of irreligion...er science, at most community colleges and universities? 

 

I have been to Umpqua Community College when covering our Roseburg driver. We have a stop there. It is in a really nice spot north of town situated in some hills. Besides the obvious tragedy of those who have been killed and hurt, as well as the poor killer, may God have mercy, I am sorry for the kind of town I would like to live in when I retire.

 

Rory

Edited by 3DOP

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I was wondering what the motive for this horrible crime was, and when it was said that he was asking the religion of his potential victims, I was really struck by this.  Initially, because of the query about religion, this sounded like it was an Islamic extremist act, but when his name was released it wasn't any kind of Muslim name.  His name was Chris Harper Mercer. 

 

Sorry for my initial stab at a motive.

 

Now I think that the perp is some disturbed individual in the mold of Klebold and Harris, they of the Columbine massacre.

 

And of course the first thing the President says is how we need more gun control.  Sorry for getting political, but guess who started it.  Personally, I think we need more nut control.  If I were a betting man, I would bet real money that this guy is some kind of nutcase that everyone thought was eventually going to do something really really bad, but nobody could get anyone in authority to have a look at him.

Evidence in point: 

 

Harper Mercer’s online presence hinted at an interest in mass shootings, with a torrent account showing he uploaded a BBC documentary about the Sandy Hook killings just three days ago. theGuardian

 

One of the problems is that the media goes into a feeding frenzy about this kind of crime, and it's plastered all across every radio and TV station and the Internet, and it seems to draw the occasional copycat.

Edited by Stargazer

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Well...according to CSIS (Canadian Secret Intelligence Service), white supremacists are larger perpetrators of violence in North America than Islamists...so even with the religion question being asked it could just as easily be an anti-Muslim thing as anything.

Most of the people here on the board are Yanks, what do you think is the underlying problem in the States? It seems as though other developed countries don't have nearly the same problem with mass shootingsZ

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Well...according to CSIS (Canadian Secret Intelligence Service), white supremacists are larger perpetrators of violence in North America than Islamists...so even with the religion question being asked it could just as easily be an anti-Muslim thing as anything.

Most of the people here on the board are Yanks, what do you think is the underlying problem in the States? It seems as though other developed countries don't have nearly the same problem with mass shootingsZ

That's odd because aside from the nutjob in South Carolina recently, I haven't heard about any other violence perpetrated by white supremacists, not lately at least.

I was going to add more, but decided not to. I'm sure someone will write something that I will want to respond to. But I might not respond.

This was a horrible crime.

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You got that right Stargazer...horrible! This guy playing mind games with the Christian question...like you said, probably trying to make it look like a Muslim extremist. I guess no one is safe.

Just live each day as if it's your last or hope that someone next to you, who's sane, has a permit to carry a gun.

Edited by Tacenda

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I suspect a mental health issue that may have been treated with drugs that either didn't do the job or made it worse. There was a story that the new president of the College was going to make the place a " no gun zone " .Makes one wonder.

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With all respect, I do not think this is a lack of intellect, ERay. I would suggest it is a problem of the heart. It is a symptom of interior selfishness. Of unchecked ego. We are living in a world that says it is unhealthy to have unfulfilled desires. The desire is paramount. I feel that I am of another sex than that which my body is? I change it. There is a recent case of some disturbed woman who thought she should have been born blind. She found some psychologist who reportedly encouraged her "desires" to make her body match her soul. She blinded herself with some kind of detergent.

 

Did this guy go on a mission? I met some nice missionaries from the Church today. They were tracting as you LDS call it. They cared about me. They were outside of themselves. It didn't enter their minds to shoot anybody today. We need religion in our lives. We need faith in a merciful but just God who rewards good behavior and punishes the bad. Did this guy go to confession last week? Is he a returned missionary? Young people today are being messed up with a tax funded secular catechism that abhors faith based morality and motives for life. What do young people have to live for who believe the departments of irreligion...er science, at most community colleges and universities? 

 

I have been to Umpqua Community College when covering our Roseburg driver. We have a stop there. It is in a really nice spot north of town situated in some hills. Besides the obvious tragedy of those who have been killed and hurt, as well as the poor killer, may God have mercy, I am sorry for the kind of town I would like to live in when I retire.

 

Rory

 

Rory my friend you are right it is the message of Christ in our lives that turns us from being self absorbed to concern for our brothers and sisters.  However don't you think that the "tax funded secular catechism that abhors faith based morality and motives for life" unbalances mental stability just a little? 

 

We definitely need religion in our lives to keep balance and stability. 

 

I once heard a GA (LDS) say that the destroying angels had been unleashed for the last time before Christs coming.  He then made the following comment, I have come to the conclusion they are unplugging peoples thinkers.  I think he was right.

 

Again you are so right.

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Most of the people here on the board are Yanks, what do you think is the underlying problem in the States? It seems as though other developed countries don't have nearly the same problem with mass shootingsZ

 

They certainly don't.  They use bombs instead.

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I don't think the problem has a legal solution.  To conclude otherwise is to say, essentially, that someone who's intent enough on breaking the law that he wants to attempt to kill dozens or scores of his fellow human beings all of a sudden will turn law abiding if we simply pass one more law that says he can't have a gun.  It's as though he then will say to himself, "Well, I was going to attempt [or to commit] mass murder, but, doggone it, the law says I can't have a gun!"  That defies both logic and human nature. And even if guns were outlawed successfully, such a person simply would turn to other, more extreme (and perhaps more certainly lethal) methods, such as bombs.  As long as evil impulses hold sway in the minds and hearts of some of our fellow human beings, they will seek ways to effectuate those evil impulses, and sadly, many of them will be successful.  Overwhelmingly, the success of any given law depends less on active enforcement than on voluntary compliance.  If one not only refuses to comply but is determined to actively break the law, often, there isn't much the law can do to stop him before the fact.  

 

Part of the problem lies in our approach to behavioral disorders. If not for any behavioral health diagnosis I may have, then certainly for my developmental disability, two or three generations ago, I may have been shuttled off to an institution.  Now, the law says I have a right to be in the least restrictive environment possible where my needs can still be met (where, hopefully, I will meet most of my needs myself).  In that respect, the law's approach to behavioral health conditions and developmental conditions is similar.  I'm thankful for that, because it allows me to maintain my inherent human dignity, while I would be unable to do so if I were simply shut away in an institution.

 

Perhaps our horrified response to the treatment of those with behavioral health issues was something of an overreaction.  Now, we say, "If he isn't a danger to himself or to anyone else, he must be left alone, and the more-or-less default assumption is that someone is not a danger to himself or to anyone else, absent clear evidence to the contrary. And even our efforts to give him appropriate supports must not interfere with his right to self-determination."  That's a good thing.  But for some of us, part of our horrified response to shutting people away in institutions was to say, in essence, that their conditions were simply alternate, equally-valid ways of perceiving and reacting to the world.  We may not think that pushing a shopping cart full of the entirety of one's earthly belongings (the vast majority of which were acquired simply because someone else discarded them), being dirty, unshaven, and unkempt, and wearing clothing and shoes that are dirty and full of holes is any way to live, but who are we to say?  If he's not a danger to himself or to others and he wishes to live that way, he must be left alone.

 

Bottom line?  A generation or two ago, it might have been easier to prevent something like this from happening.  It certainly would have been easier to commit such a person to the care of behavioral health authorities.  But now, absent clear evidence that someone is a danger to himself or to others, and as long as the default assumption is that he is not such a danger, crafting an effective response is much more of a challenge.  That's a double-edged sword: It's a good thing because it prevents people like me from be caught up in a net that was too widely cast; it's a bad thing because it also means that not everyone who perhaps should be caught in it will be caught in it.

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I don't know why I didn't realize this yesterday, but I know a gentleman (a member of the church) who is a reporter for the newspaper there. The light bulb went off in the evening and I was curious - and concerned - to see how he was. Needless to say, in many respects it was a horrific and very long day for him.

I was thinking of him this morning while watching the national morning shows as I was getting ready for work. I was appalled at the questions and behavior of some of the so-called professionals. A sharp contrast to this brother.

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I did not say mental illness.  I specifically used the word deficient.  

 

I don't know what you mean by mentally deficient in the context of mass shooting. Those with pronounced developmental disabilities(90 IQ or below) are very unlikely to commit such crimes.

SEE http://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-1-4614-8250-5_18?no-access=true

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I suspect a mental health issue that may have been treated with drugs that either didn't do the job or made it worse. There was a story that the new president of the College was going to make the place a " no gun zone ". Makes one wonder.

Well, of course THAT would have stopped the shooter. I can see it now: he comes up to the college entrance with his guns and sees the signs. "Oh, darn!" He says to himself. "I'll have to try OSU now."

Yep Gun-Free Zones are the answer, of course.

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They certainly don't.  They use bombs instead.

Here's the scary part: even I, a gun enthusiast, do not have the ability or the equipment to make a gun. I do, however, know how to make a bomb, and I know where to get the materials. There are lots of people like this, you know. I'm not unique at all.

Don't get worried, peeps. In all the years I have known how to do this (courtesy of the U.S. Army), I've never acted on my knowledge and have no desire to try. There are, however, those who both have the knowledge and can find a motive for doing so.

Edited by Stargazer

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You got that right Stargazer...horrible! This guy playing mind games with the Christian question...like you said, probably trying to make it look like a Muslim extremist. I guess no one is safe.

Just live each day as if it's your last or hope that someone next to you, who's sane, has a permit to carry a gun.

Oregon has a goodly set of concealed carry laws, that even includes a training requirement (which will ease TSS's mind). Unfortunately, none were in attendance in the right place yesterday.

Oh, and by definition, someone who has a concealed carry permit is sane. They check on that before issuing the permit.

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I find that the article is seriously deficient, in part. Case in point:

 

...a 2001 study of mass shooters that found three out of four had no psychiatric history.

No psychiatric history does not mean they had no psychiatric problems. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, as someone or other in other contexts likes to point out.

It's not that the article doesn't make good points, however. Consider:

 

Swanson would like to see more focus on those who have exhibited violence rather than those who have mental illness. “If someone has a history of any kind of violent or assaultive behavior, that's actually a better predictor of future violence than having a mental health diagnosis,” Swanson told ProPublica. “If someone has a conviction for a violent misdemeanor, we think there's evidence, they ought to be prohibited” from owning guns.

I think some states might remove 2nd Amendment rights from someone convicted of a gross or violent misdemeanors. Others might not. I agree that this is something that should be coordinated, and perhaps Federal law should be adjusted accordingly. I believe that the Federal laws about domestic violence puts convicts of such crimes into a position where they can't possess a firearm.

But behavior should be a factor in deciding on whether a person has lost the right to bear arms.

Edited by Stargazer

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Unfortunately, none were in attendance in the right place yesterday.

Actually there was a man there with a concealed carry permit.  He didn't use it because he figured by the time he got to the area the Swat team would likely be there and not be able to distinguish between himself and the shooter.  He was hustled into a classroom with other students by a professor who then asked if anyone was carrying.  He said he was and that he would defend himself and everyone else if the need there arose.  IIRC he said there were a number of others who were in the same position he was.  

 

Unless they are right there in the middle of the shooting, I would think many gun carriers, maybe even most, would choose to depend upon police showing up in a timely manner.

 

But perhaps that is what you meant by the right place...right where things are going on so they could act without worrying about confusing law officers because they hadn't arrived yet.

 

The story was linked to on the raw story link that TSS posted, irrc.

Edited by Calm

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These issues can be prevented. The problem is you really don't see enough people being taken away in straight jackets anymore. All mass shooters have mental problems.

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