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hagoth7

Reason For Mental Illness And Suicide In Utah

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Nonsense. 

 

Take away the availability of guns and other methods become more prevalent.  With your reasoning there should not be any suicide in places where guns are banned

 

The rate of suicide goes down.

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My uncle was in the church and gay and rejected by leaders and members of the church so he wound up killing himself. A lot of the suicides in Utah are probably from gay members of the church in Utah who feel evil like my uncle did.

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Even in countries where homosexual sexual identity and behaviour have been generally seen as acceptable for a significant amount of time, suicide and other mental health issues are higher among the gay population than the straight.

While there may be a connection, just making the claim isn't evidence. I have seen no research that indicates gays commit suicide more in Utah or the LDS faith than outside of either. I may have missed some, it has been a bit since I looked.

Added:

My apologies for making it appear as if your uncle's death was irrelevant to the conversation.

My uncle committed suicide because (we believe) of brain damage caused a terminal disease. Even in that case there was much shock, pain and even anger experienced by the family. It was mystifying to his family why he chose to rob them of the time they had left, to not even give them a chance to say goodbye. It wasn't very comforting to blame it on the tumor. When sucide is a result of emotional suffering, it probably causes even a greater sense of helplessness and wondering what might have been.

When people relate personal tragedies, I find it hard to know what to say to show my sympathy. Everything possible seems too trival. So I focus on what I can respond to...which in this case was your second sentence. I have no clue why this happened with your uncle. I am sorry if I've caused you more pain.

Edited by Calm

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The rate of suicide goes down.

 

OK, CFR that banning guns causes a statistically significant decrease in the suicide rate.

But wait a minute before you run off looking for something that isn't there. Let's examine a little old peer-reviewed article which appeared in the Harvard Journal of Law & Public Policy, Volume 30, No. 2: "WOULD BANNING FIREARMS REDUCE MURDER AND SUICIDE?"

To cut to the chase, the answer is NO.  I'll recommend you read the whole darned thing. Link above.  But here's a relevant excerpt:

 

However unintentionally, the irrelevance of focusing on

weaponry is highlighted by the most common theme in the

more guns equal more death argument. Epitomizing this

theme is a World Health Organization (WHO) report asserting,

“The easy availability of firearms has been associated

with higher firearm mortality rates.” The authors, in noting

that the presence of a gun in a home corresponds to a higher

risk of suicide, apparently assume that if denied firearms,

potential suicides will decide to live rather than turning to

the numerous alternative suicide mechanisms. The evidence,

however, indicates that denying one particular means to

people who are motivated to commit suicide by social, economic,

cultural, or other circumstances simply pushes them

to some other means. Thus, it is not just the murder rate in

gun‐less Russia that is four times higher than the American

rate; the Russian suicide rate is also about four times higher

than the American rate.

 

I feel inclined to remind you that you are entitled to your own opinion, but not to your own facts.  Reality is king. 

 

You and I have debated around this subject before. As honorable as your intentions are, you tend to assume that just because you would prefer something to be true because it perhaps seems to make sense, that it necessarily must be true. I distinctly recall you misunderstanding something I wrote concerning Concealed Carry Permits, that it was my idea that they be issued without any required firearms training. You characterized this as a crazy and dangerous proposal or theory. When I brought to your attention that I was not proposing it, but that was how Washington state had been issuing CCPs for the past 60 years with no ill effects, I don't think you acknowledged that you were wrong about the disastrousness of issuing CCPs without any other than a background check. Perhaps you forgot.

Edited by Stargazer

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Apples to oranges. Japan's high rate of suicide is tied to cultural issues we do not have in the States.

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OK, CFR that banning guns causes a statistically significant decrease in the suicide rate.

But wait a minute before you run off looking for something that isn't there. Let's examine a little old peer-reviewed article which appeared in the Harvard Journal of Law & Public Policy, Volume 30, No. 2: "WOULD BANNING FIREARMS REDUCE MURDER AND SUICIDE?"

To cut to the chase, the answer is NO.  I'll recommend you read the whole darned thing. Link above.  But here's a relevant excerpt:

 

 

I feel inclined to remind you that you are entitled to your own opinion, but not to your own facts.  Reality is king. 

 

You and I have debated around this subject before. As honorable as your intentions are, you tend to assume that just because you would prefer something to be true because it perhaps seems to make sense, that it necessarily must be true. I distinctly recall you misunderstanding something I wrote concerning Concealed Carry Permits, that it was my idea that they be issued without any required firearms training. You characterized this as a crazy and dangerous proposal or theory. When I brought to your attention that I was not proposing it, but that was how Washington state had been issuing CCPs for the past 60 years with no ill effects, I don't think you acknowledged that you were wrong about the disastrousness of issuing CCPs without any other than a background check. Perhaps you forgot.

 

Never said banning guns was the answer. We're just not going to put that genie back into the bottle. So how do you propose to lower the suicide rate? 

 

Please explain why women attempt suicide far more often than men, but men succeed far more often than women.

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Never said banning guns was the answer. We're just not going to put that genie back into the bottle. So how do you propose to lower the suicide rate? 

 

Please explain why women attempt suicide far more often than men, but men succeed far more often than women.

 

I think we can bring about an end to suicide through the use of mind-control lasers.

 

Women just don't know how to kill themselves right. They always just go half way and don't follow through. Women, you can't live with them and they can't even kill themselves properly.

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Somebody is about to get yelled at.

 

 

  I don't know why women attempt suicide more but succeed less. Perhaps it has to do with their chosen methods. Perhaps they have a concern with appearance even in death. Perhaps there is a difference in the attitude toward violence and guns in particular.  There does seem to be a greater prevalence of depression in women and that probably leads to attempted suicide. PTSD sufferers fill the ranks of the military and suicide is high in that group as is familiarity with guns. I suspect, but have seen no study on suicide among females in the armed forces, that the use of guns with females suicides has increased. Anyone have access to such info?

 

Here is an interesting article that merits reading.

 

 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epidemiology_of_suicide

 

  One sentence from the article just leaped out at me as counterintuitive . If true , society has something to contemplate in light of recent legal decisions.

 

 

"  In Denmark, the age-adjusted suicide mortality risk for men in registered domestic partnerships was nearly eight times greater than for men with positive histories of heterosexual marriage and nearly twice as high for men who had never married.[32]"  

Edited by strappinglad

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Apples to oranges. Japan's high rate of suicide is tied to cultural issues we do not have in the States.

Jeeze, that's the whole point, isn't it? It is easy availability of firearms that causes suicides was what TSS was trying to advocate, whereas the stats on their face show clearly otherwise. Lots more people kill themselves in countries that don't allow private firearms ownership, and you're thinking that culture is a point in your position's favor? It destroys your position, and you don't even see it.

Ever hear of the principle which say, Just because you want something to be the case does not make it the case?

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Never said banning guns was the answer. We're just not going to put that genie back into the bottle. So how do you propose to lower the suicide rate? 

 

Please explain why women attempt suicide far more often than men, but men succeed far more often than women.

Straw man. I never said that you said that banning guns was the answer.

You claimed that reducing the availability of guns would reduce the suicide rate: "The rate of suicide goes down". I presented data that showed this was not the case, that the availability of guns did not correlate with the suicide rate -- since in a number of countries where the extreme position of banning guns had been taken still have unimaginably high suicide rates. I'm not going to try to come up with ways to lower the suicide rate -- how the heck should I know? What makes Russians or Japanese kill themselves? Investigate that, and then take action to alleviate the conditions that you find. That's all I can say.

And what difference does it make that women attempt suicide more often, but men succeed far more often? And is this even true? It's true in some places, but not others. In general, men are better than women in tasks that require physical strength, and they are also better than women in tasks that require physical violence. It should come as no surprise that men are better at killing. Who fights wars? The Girl Scouts?

Wikipedia:

 

In the Western world, males die three to four times more often by means of suicide than do females, although females attempt suicide four times more often. This has been attributed to males using more lethal means to end their lives. This difference is even more pronounced in those over the age of 65, with tenfold more males committing suicide than females. China has one of the highest female suicide rates in the world and is the only country where it is higher than that of men (ratio of 0.9). In the Eastern Mediterranean, suicide rates are nearly equivalent between males and females. The highest rate of female suicide is found in South Korea at 22 per 100,000, with high rates in South-East Asia and the Western Pacific generally

So in the West men choose more lethal means and thus succeed more often. How is it done in Luxenbourg, which has one of the highest suicide rates in Europe, but where private firearms ownership is forbidden? And do you think that every Chinese home has firearms?

Edited by Stargazer

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Jeeze, that's the whole point, isn't it? It is easy availability of firearms that causes suicides was what TSS was trying to advocate, whereas the stats on their face show clearly otherwise. Lots more people kill themselves in countries that don't allow private firearms ownership, and you're thinking that culture is a point in your position's favor? It destroys your position, and you don't even see it.Ever hear of the principle which say, Just because you want something to be the case does not make it the case?

My positions so far in this thread are that Mormons are so annoying that those around them commit suicide and that women are terrible at suicide. I am not sure if I am the one you are arguing against.

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Straw man. I never said that you said that banning guns was the answer.

You claimed that reducing the availability of guns would reduce the suicide rate: "The rate of suicide goes down". I presented data that showed this was not the case, that the availability of guns did not correlate with the suicide rate -- since in a number of countries where the extreme position of banning guns had been taken still have unimaginably high suicide rates. I'm not going to try to come up with ways to lower the suicide rate -- how the heck should I know? What makes Russians or Japanese kill themselves? Investigate that, and then take action to alleviate the conditions that you find. That's all I can say.

And what difference does it make that women attempt suicide more often, but men succeed far more often? And is this even true? It's true in some places, but not others. In general, men are better than women in tasks that require physical strength, and they are also better than women in tasks that require physical violence. It should come as no surprise that men are better at killing. Who fights wars? The Girl Scouts?

Wikipedia:

 

So in the West men choose more lethal means and thus succeed more often. How is it done in Luxenbourg, which has one of the highest suicide rates in Europe, but where private firearms ownership is forbidden? And do you think that every Chinese home has firearms?

 

It's a simple function of mathematics. How many people do you suppose used an automobile to commit suicide in 1830? BTW I'm not proposing we ban automobiles either. ALL I have said on the issue of firearms is that we should find a ways to keep them out of the hands of those that have no business having them. You keep presenting a strawman argument.

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An expert has an intriguing suggestion for what causes an unusually high number of suicides and a considerable degree of mental illness in Utah...and his research does not at all imply what critics would like people to think.

 

 California, Connecticut, Illinois, Maryland, Rhode Island, New York, and New Jersey  are the states with the lowest suicide rate. Wyoming, Alaska, Montana, New Mexico, Utah, Colorado, and Idaho have the highest suicide rate. I am not concluding anything, but interesting stats, is it because of the higher altitude? evangelical religion? Red and purple states? 

 

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm6345a10.htm

and see your own link

http://mic.com/articles/104096/there-s-a-suicide-epidemic-in-utah-and-one-neuroscientist-thinks-he-knows-why

 

ef4dcbb96aa6dbf1fd3d5a0cd1ca73f0.jpg

Edited by TheSkepticChristian

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 California, Connecticut, Illinois, Maryland, Rhode Island, New York, and New Jersey  are the states with the lowest suicide rate. Wyoming, Alaska, Montana, New Mexico, Utah, Colorado, and Idaho have the highest suicide rate. I am not concluding anything, but interesting stats, is it because of the higher altitude? evangelical religion? Red and purple states? 

 

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm6345a10.htm

and see your own link

http://mic.com/articles/104096/there-s-a-suicide-epidemic-in-utah-and-one-neuroscientist-thinks-he-knows-why

 

ef4dcbb96aa6dbf1fd3d5a0cd1ca73f0.jpg

Do these two maps correlate? 

 

http://www.slate.com/articles/life/map_of_the_week/2012/02/mormon_population_in_the_u_s_an_interactive_map.html

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Not really. IE; West Virginia isn't know for its high concentration of LDS but is known for its high concentration of suicides.

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Not really. IE; West Virginia isn't know for its high concentration of LDS but is known for its high concentration of suicides.

 

but it is a Red or a Red-Purple state. Perhaps it is a coincidence, but the suicide rate is lower in the very blue states.

 

PS but again, I am not making any conclusions about the specific reason.

 

 

 California, Connecticut, Illinois, Maryland, Rhode Island, New York, and New Jersey  are the states with the lowest suicide rate. Wyoming, Alaska, Montana, New Mexico, Utah, Colorado, and Idaho have the highest suicide rate. I am not concluding anything, but interesting stats, is it because of the higher altitude? evangelical religion? Red and purple states?

 

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm6345a10.htm

and see your own link

http://mic.com/articles/104096/there-s-a-suicide-epidemic-in-utah-and-one-neuroscientist-thinks-he-knows-why

ef4dcbb96aa6dbf1fd3d5a0cd1ca73f0.jpg

Edited by TheSkepticChristian

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My uncle was in the church and gay and rejected by leaders and members of the church so he wound up killing himself. A lot of the suicides in Utah are probably from gay members of the church in Utah who feel evil like my uncle did.

I am so sorry. :sorry:

 

How long ago was this? And how are you and the rest of his family doing?

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Not really. IE; West Virginia isn't know for its high concentration of LDS but is known for its high concentration of suicides.

One aspect of West Virginia is the grinding poverty there.

"West Virginia falls next [after Mississippi, as the poorest state], coming in 49th in income and 50th in taxes paid per capita."

I lived there for a short while, and caught a glimpse of some of the poverty firsthand.

 

Many self medicate, perhaps to cope with the lack of hope.

"West Virginia has [by far] the highest drug overdose mortality rate in the United States."

"The number of drug overdose deaths - a majority of which are from prescription drugs - in West Virginia increased by 605 percent since 1999...."

http://healthyamericans.org/reports/drugabuse2013/release.php?stateid=WV

Edited by hagoth7

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I am so sorry. :sorry:

 

How long ago was this? And how are you and the rest of his family doing?

Video, hagoth's post here made me realize my post was totally lacking in what was needed. I added to it, hope you will take the time to reread:

http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/66011-reason-for-mental-illness-and-suicide-in-utah/?p=1209536642

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My positions so far in this thread are that Mormons are so annoying that those around them commit suicide and that women are terrible at suicide. I am not sure if I am the one you are arguing against.

 

Oh, OK.  If those are your positions then I guess I have no argument against you.  I am sure there are many people who are annoyed by me, but so far I am not annoying enough, for none of them has attempted suicide.  Sadly, I am just a complete failure.  :sorry:

Edited by Stargazer

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It's a simple function of mathematics. How many people do you suppose used an automobile to commit suicide in 1830? BTW I'm not proposing we ban automobiles either. ALL I have said on the issue of firearms is that we should find a ways to keep them out of the hands of those that have no business having them. You keep presenting a strawman argument.

 

Earlier, you stated with great clarity that if firearms availability were reduced, fewer suicides would result.  I showed that the data contradicted your claim.  Where is the straw man in any of that?

 

You now say that we should find ways to keep firearms out of the hands of those who have no business having them.  I don't disagree, but what does this have to do with anything I've said?  I thought we were discussing how availability of firearms affected suicide rates.  I have no straws in my hands.  I don't even know what you're talking about at this point.

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but it is a Red or a Red-Purple state. Perhaps it is a coincidence, but the suicide rate is lower in the very blue states.

 

PS but again, I am not making any conclusions about the specific reason.

 

There is a backlog of suicides in the blue states.  The bureaucratic red tape has delayed the granting of permission to commit suicide.

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Earlier, you stated with great clarity that if firearms availability were reduced, fewer suicides would result.  I showed that the data contradicted your claim.  Where is the straw man in any of that?

 

You now say that we should find ways to keep firearms out of the hands of those who have no business having them.  I don't disagree, but what does this have to do with anything I've said?  I thought we were discussing how availability of firearms affected suicide rates.  I have no straws in my hands.  I don't even know what you're talking about at this point.

 

It is function of numbers. The fewer of any object the less it will get used. There are about 310 million firearms in private hands in this country. They will get used more often than if there were say if there were just 100 million. The strawman is where you keep stating that I want to ban all firearms. I've never said that. I have consistently said we need to find a way to keep them out of the hands of those who shouldn't have them. I've already suggested a few. Stricter controls of who may possess them, better training in their appropriate use, more mental health services.

 

I simply would like an explanation as to why women attempt suicide far more than men, but men succeed at suicide far more than women. Could it possibly be that women tend to use less effective means(drugs) while men tend to use more effective means(firearms)?

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I simply would like an explanation as to why women attempt suicide far more than men, but men succeed at suicide far more than women. Could it possibly be that women tend to use less effective means(drugs) while men tend to use more effective means(firearms)?

Ding, ding . That is the biggest factor. I just read a link that ranks all types of suicide methods by effectiveness and pain level as established by a group of pathologists. Shotguns work very well. Most drugs are iffy.

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