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What Two Religions Tell Us About The Modern Dating Crisis

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Many RM dudes are looking for a beutiful LDS girl, many won't cosider a girl that is overweight or simply not attractive.

The same problem existed in the 19th century, Heber C. Kimball said (according to Stanley P. Hirshson), "The brother missionaries have been in the habit of picking out the prettiest women for themselves before they get here, and bringing on the ugly ones for us"

Did Stanley P. Hirshson hear Heber say it?

Or did he lift it from a hostile article in a New York newspaper, which wasn't able to give any provenance for the alleged remark?

Don't you think it would be a good idea to be at least a little bit of a "SkepticChristian" towards such dubious sources? As in, try to be a little bit judiciously sceptical towards such unsupported stories, while doing unto Heber as you would have others do to you?

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People marry those that look similar to them on levels of attraction. Though someone might not be attractive to me, another person may be attracted to them. Attraction is arbitrary. You may know that your girlfriend is not super attractive to others, but do you find her attractive or that you like to look at her? Do you enjoy touching and kissing her? That's what's more important. I have similar outlooks to Nehor. I prefer men in good shape, lean, and even within a certain height range (5'8"-6'0"). My first kiss didn't have this but we were best friends....when he kissed me I felt nothing. We just didn't have that sort of chemistry. My current interest does fit that...there's things that would be considered conventionally not as attractive (he's balding for example), but he's attractive to me. 

 

Almost everyone has physical standards whether they admit it or not. Some are unrealistic. Some are not. On the bright side as you fall in love physical attractiveness increases. Even things that are conventionally unattractive become cute or endearing.

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I admit I will not date girls who are seriously overweight. I am in good physical condition for my age and like hiking, running, working out, paddleboarding, riding waves, etc. I also eat reasonably healthy. It is just hard for me to imagine sharing my life with someone who does not care for such things.

I do find the massively overweight guys in my area who have similar standards hopelessly deluded.

 

Date an LDS girl in the Philippines and they don't care if you're overweight.  They are absolutely desperate for a good LDS man.

Male activity rates there are really bad, so a good husband is hard to find.  Not only that, but there are lot's of younger ones too to choose from, they also often like older men as well.

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Date an LDS girl in the Philippines and they don't care if you're overweight.  They are absolutely desperate for a good LDS man.

Male activity rates there are really bad, so a good husband is hard to find.  Not only that, but there are lot's of younger ones too to choose from, they also often like older men as well.

 

That would just feel predatory to me. While beauty fades a bit with age maturity usually increases. I want an equal and an age disparity makes that harder to achieve. Last night I co-taught a fitness/self-defense class made up mostly of 19-26 year old girls. Yeah....no thanks. I am not sure how I found them attractive when I was that age. So I pulled out my journals and remembered: Oh yeah, I was an immature idiot too. :)

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Or we wait for the college bubble to burst. We have too many college-educated people for the number of college educated jobs out there. Employers take advantage of that by demanding degrees for jobs that really should not need them so more people seek degrees. Young students come out of college to relatively low paying jobs with big student loan debts and jobs that do not compensate for the cost of their education. Schools keep raising tuition and get away with it due to the limitless pool of student loans and the law favors the creditor as not even bankruptcy can end such loans.

There was one girl I was hesitant to ask out because she still lived at home at around 30 but I was interested and did it and got turned down. Later I found out through mutual friends that she felt that since she had a phd she should dates guys that are that educated. She had a part time job as a tutor and I was making enough to support a family. I was not that bothered but it did seem off to me. We have a weird college elitist mindset.

One aspect of the college bubble that especially disturbs me is that so many people are getting completely economically useless degrees. Even an Associate degree in Basketweaving is more practical than a doctorate in Woemn's Studies. The only work available for some degrees is teaching that subject in a college -- which makes about the same sense as many multi-level marketing schemes, where they recruit people to recruit people and any useful product is immaterial.

I was once told that any degree was evidence to an employer that you were at least smart enough to get a degree, but somehow that seems inadequate.

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Tacenda... I'm happy to say I know your husband... and you...

 

Fellow readers... a few days ago I had the pleasure of meeting Tacenda and her husband during their visit to the Oregon coast... Tacenda PM'd me that they were coming to the coast and asked for ideas, etc.  Turned out they were staying the night just down the highway from me so we agreed to meet for breakfast before they continued on down the coast...

When I arrived at their little motel at the agreed time, I found this really nice looking fellow standing in an open doorway... as I got out of my van I said...Are you from Utah?... Of course it was Tacenda's husband... we shook hands and I was taken with his friendly smile and pleasant eyes... short crew cut... bermuda shorts... windbreaker... perfect on the coast... 

He says... Tacenda's anxious to meet you...

So I laughed as I was greeted by Tacenda... we hugged and I said... You are nothing like I expected!!

Laughing she says... What were you expecting...

I told her... I imagined you as being older looking, a rounder grandmotherly type with glasses, graying hair... but look at you!!

There before me was this lovely, tall, willowy blond with a chic short haircut... her laughing blue eyes friendly and welcoming... I chuckled at how far off I was in my expectation...

From there we went to breakfast where we enjoyed an easiness with lively conversation... such a delightful, pleasant meeting... and I'm thankful to have had the opportunity to meet them...

There are many on the board I'd like to have the opportunity to meet... I bet I'd be pleasantly surprised at more than a few...

 

GG

That is spiffy! I, too, have imagined how Tacenda looks, and for some reason your description of her matched what I imagined, down to her hair color! I must be psychic! Or perhaps psychotic, too, but whatever!

Well, I'm not as psychic as I perhaps think. Another board member I have recently become Facebook friends with didn't look at all like I thought she would. Except I got her hair color right. Maybe I'm psychic about hair color! Or maybe lots of people are brunettes. Like I used to be.

I'm steel gray now, which all things being equal, I like a lot. Especially since I am like my Amerindian forebears and do not bald. If anyone cares to see my beautiful steel gray hair, check out my personal web page.

Gosh I sound vain.

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One aspect of the college bubble that especially disturbs me is that so many people are getting completely economically useless degrees. Even an Associate degree in Basketweaving is more practical than a doctorate in Woemn's Studies. The only work available for some degrees is teaching that subject in a college -- which makes about the same sense as many multi-level marketing schemes, where they recruit people to recruit people and any useful product is immaterial.

I was once told that any degree was evidence to an employer that you were at least smart enough to get a degree, but somehow that seems inadequate.

 

The generation of parents that raised the current generation lived in a time where any degree was a pathway to increased income and that white-collar work desk jobs are success. This has started to change. I can tell you that when I raise my kids (if I ever have any) and if nothing changes college is not going to be the only option I will accept them pursuing like my parents raised me. I will back them if they go that route but if they want to be trained in some other worthwhile profession go for it.

 

College costs more and rewards less now then it ever has. Something will have to give. People are coming out of school with $50,000 to $250,000 in debt and are making less then $40,000 a year.

 

Part of the problem is that in the United States student loan debt is not dischargeable by just about any form of bankruptcy. This makes it a pretty safe investment for lending institutions. Too safe. They are willing to fund Women's Study and Basketweaving degrees because the person is stuck with the debt whether they become a professor or a night-shift manager at McDonald's. I think we need to soften the bankruptcy laws so lending institutions are taking real risks when they lend to students. Then while they will probably continue to fund Engineering degrees they will be less likely to fund liberal arts degrees with little to no hope of creating a stable and strong income.

 

Either that or we a society where all necessary work is considered honorable and pays a living wage but I am not holding out hope for that.

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The generation of parents that raised the current generation lived in a time where any degree was a pathway to increased income and that white-collar work desk jobs are success. This has started to change. I can tell you that when I raise my kids (if I ever have any) and if nothing changes college is not going to be the only option I will accept them pursuing like my parents raised me. I will back them if they go that route but if they want to be trained in some other worthwhile profession go for it.

 

College costs more and rewards less now then it ever has. Something will have to give. People are coming out of school with $50,000 to $250,000 in debt and are making less then $40,000 a year.

 

Part of the problem is that in the United States student loan debt is not dischargeable by just about any form of bankruptcy. This makes it a pretty safe investment for lending institutions. Too safe. They are willing to fund Women's Study and Basketweaving degrees because the person is stuck with the debt whether they become a professor or a night-shift manager at McDonald's. I think we need to soften the bankruptcy laws so lending institutions are taking real risks when they lend to students. Then while they will probably continue to fund Engineering degrees they will be less likely to fund liberal arts degrees with little to no hope of creating a stable and strong income.

 

Either that or we a society where all necessary work is considered honorable and pays a living wage but I am not holding out hope for that.

 

I agree with you here entirely.  Unusual, but when you make sense, you make sense.

 

Two of my grandsons came out of UCSD with mathematics degrees, for which they had full-ride scholarships, and their performances were such that they got full-ride scholarships for graduate programs in mathematics at two separate, rather prestigious schools. One of them is at Purdue; the other, I can't remember where he's at.  So they won't have any student loan debt to deal with, but I am still not sure what the heck they are going to do with doctorates in mathematics.  Teach math?  Sounds like a dead end, but it may just be my failure of imagination.  My own Dad thought my initial idea for a major (Chemistry) was a dead-end.  Sometimes I wish I had gotten my degree in Chem.  Although I definitely like computers.

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Stargazer, as someone who obtained a Ph.D. in mathematics, let me just say that teaching is definitely not the only thing one can do.  The demand for mathematicians in all sorts of professions is extremely high.  The biggest single employer of mathematicians is the US government; and those mathematicians do very many things to keep us safe.

 

That said, I take some offense at the the idea that teaching mathematics is a "dead-end" job.  Teaching is a noble profession, which does a lot of good in the world.  Teachers, especially with graduate degrees, have greater job security than many other professions, and make decent paychecks.  Further, in mathematics, usually students leave with no student debt.  Mathematics is extremely useful in nearly every other scientific field, and has provided the basis for a number of recent advances in technology and research.  The world needs more mathematicians.

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We will have to have more posts questioning the value of mathematics just so you pop in, Zeta. :)

My dad toldme physics was useless for getting a job so I switched to engineering, which I hated...thus I ended up in Psychology, my second fascination. Not a bad choice since I met my husband and it turned out I couldn't work anyway because of health, but thinking about it makes me grind my teeth on occasion.

I would have been set in the early 80s, a woman with an astrophysics degree. I would have loved doing research. I am rather surprised he was so clueless about itgiven he was one of the top directors in the United Airlines plane repair shop so should have been aware I would think that ongoing research in lots of businesses would use physicists, but he had a very focused view of life and generally ignored stuff that he wasn't interested in.

My grandmother thought I should learn TV repair because they charged her a big bill to fix her TV. At least she didn't suggest I have a hairdressing salon in my house like she did to others.

Edited by calmoriah

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That is spiffy! I, too, have imagined how Tacenda looks, and for some reason your description of her matched what I imagined, down to her hair color! I must be psychic! Or perhaps psychotic, too, but whatever!

Well, I'm not as psychic as I perhaps think. Another board member I have recently become Facebook friends with didn't look at all like I thought she would. Except I got her hair color right. Maybe I'm psychic about hair color! Or maybe lots of people are brunettes. Like I used to be.

I'm steel gray now, which all things being equal, I like a lot. Especially since I am like my Amerindian forebears and do not bald. If anyone cares to see my beautiful steel gray hair, check out my personal web page.

Gosh I sound vain.

I wish I looked as good as GG described, I'm totally serious about this. She is so darn sweet!

Anyhoo, another thing....how are you single guy's skills at just bringing up conversation with women? Like wherever you might be...in a grocery line or somewhere. There are probably thousands of times the woman you could or need to be with is standing right before your eyes. Which btw, you need to look at, their "eyes"! I'm sure you do, but truly, sometimes the eyes could be the window to a soul.

Also, the women out there aren't looking their best always. At the store, laundry mat, library, gas station, Deseret Industries (I went there just the other night for some old VHS tapes to play on my camping trip...old TV that plays them). A lot of single women probably shop for clothes there, which btw, my neighbor likes to find name brand clothing at. She's also supporting two missionaries and another who recently came home and recently married So there are many places you go everyday that are crawling with women, but personality and heart is key. Remember Johnny Lingo? She just needed someone to tell her she was beautiful and then look at her. Of course that's fictional, but I believe it about many women, there are days that if I don't get ready or whatever, I look homeless.

ETA: Sorry Stargazer, I'm totally in the habit of combining posts into one. Part of this post was in general, and you're not vain, haha.

ETA again: Sorry I said I looked "homeless" sometimes...that was in very bad taste and poor word usage.

Edited by Tacenda

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Stargazer, as someone who obtained a Ph.D. in mathematics, let me just say that teaching is definitely not the only thing one can do.  The demand for mathematicians in all sorts of professions is extremely high.  The biggest single employer of mathematicians is the US government; and those mathematicians do very many things to keep us safe.

 

That said, I take some offense at the the idea that teaching mathematics is a "dead-end" job.  Teaching is a noble profession, which does a lot of good in the world.  Teachers, especially with graduate degrees, have greater job security than many other professions, and make decent paychecks.  Further, in mathematics, usually students leave with no student debt.  Mathematics is extremely useful in nearly every other scientific field, and has provided the basis for a number of recent advances in technology and research.  The world needs more mathematicians.

I have to agree. Mathematics has a lot of opportunities. The people getting a phd in French Poetry are in trouble with 1 job for every 300 graduates.

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Stargazer, as someone who obtained a Ph.D. in mathematics, let me just say that teaching is definitely not the only thing one can do.  The demand for mathematicians in all sorts of professions is extremely high.  The biggest single employer of mathematicians is the US government; and those mathematicians do very many things to keep us safe.

 

That said, I take some offense at the the idea that teaching mathematics is a "dead-end" job.  Teaching is a noble profession, which does a lot of good in the world.  Teachers, especially with graduate degrees, have greater job security than many other professions, and make decent paychecks.  Further, in mathematics, usually students leave with no student debt.  Mathematics is extremely useful in nearly every other scientific field, and has provided the basis for a number of recent advances in technology and research.  The world needs more mathematicians.

 

Well, like I said, it was just my Dad thinking Chemistry itself was a dead-end -- because he didn't know how pervasive and useful chemistry is.  As to mathematics, the only math majors I have ever met were math teachers, except for one who had gone into programming. 

 

I don't actually think of teaching as a dead-end.  With the specific exception of teaching dead-end subjects such as any scholastic discipline with "Studies" in its name.  Such as Women's Studies, Gender Studies, and the like.  And degrees in such things have no other use except for the teaching those things.  And if Math has no other use except teaching Math, then it, too, would be a dead-end.  But it doesn't, so it isn't. 

 

You're right, it was a failure of my imagination.  Wow, that's two admissions of being wrong on the same day in two different threads.  I must be losing my touch.

 

I'm happy that you've reminded me of the importance of Mathematics in industry.  My wife was worried about her grandkids learning things that wouldn't bring them decent jobs.  One of the two grandkids, the one at Purdue, apparently does not enjoy teaching.  I'm glad to know that he will have other opportunities.

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I wish I looked as good as GG described, I'm totally serious about this.  She is so darn sweet! 

 

Anyhoo, another thing....how are you single guy's skills at just bringing up conversation with women?  Like wherever you might be...in a grocery line or somewhere.  There are probably thousands of times the woman you could or need to be with is standing right before your eyes.  Which btw, you need to look at, their "eyes"!  I'm sure you do, but truly, sometimes the eyes could be the window to a soul. 

 

Also, the women out there aren't looking their best always.  At the store, laundry mat, library, gas station, Deseret Industries (I went there just the other night for some old VHS tapes to play on my camping trip...old TV that plays them).  A lot of single women probably shop for clothes there, which btw, my neighbor likes to find name brand clothing at.  She's also supporting two missionaries and another who recently came home and recently married  So there are many places you go everyday that are crawling with women, but personality and heart is key.  Remember Johnny Lingo?  She just needed someone to tell her she was beautiful and then look at her.  Of course that's fictional, but I believe it about many women, there are days that if I don't get ready or whatever, I look homeless.     

 

Now, don't get into discounting yourself when others see you differently.  You need to appreciate your own self and not believe in a falsehood, that you're not as good as you truly are.

 

I am not a single guy, but starting from being a total introvert who was deathly afraid to talk to women I have blossomed out to someone who loves practically everyone, and loves starting conversations with perfect strangers regardless of gender.  I work for a large state agency and I strike up conversations with coworkers who happen to be cornered with me in the elevator, asking people their names and trying to retain the names and faces.  This has led to interesting situations, such as the day I was in the elevator with this one gentleman, and said, "Hi, I've not met you before, what's your name?"  He told me, and it turned out he was the agency director!  I knew the name of the director, but I hadn't ever seen him. 

 

Long before this, I was once at a pizza joint to pick up a pizza, and there was this guy who was also waiting who looked vaguely familiar, but I couldn't figure out why.  So I gave him my standard "Hi, I've not met you before, what's your name?" and he gave it to me!  He turned out to be the Governor of the state (Gary Locke).  Imagine my surprise that the Governor would go pick up his own pizza!

 

As far as women are concerned, beauty is inherent in them.  There are perhaps some who have let their beauty turn into dust, and I'm not talking about their external appearance, but their internal, i.e. spiritual, appearance.  My wife is mostly bedridden now, has lost so much weight and has gotten so extremely weak so that she cannot walk unassisted further than the bathroom, and she won't be able to do even that very soon, but I was watching her sleep this afternoon and it struck me that despite everything she is still beautiful. 

 

In fact, I do believe that everyone of us is beautiful to our Heavenly Father, and that if we let His love for us shine out from our eyes to our fellow humans, we will be able to light the world's darkness.  If God is Love, then this is what we must surely learn to be also.

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I have to agree. Mathematics has a lot of opportunities. The people getting a phd in French Poetry are in trouble with 1 job for every 300 graduates.

Not long ago, the British civil service used to have an entrance examination that was heavy on the classics; candidates would translate some standard Latin texts (Caesar's Gallic Wars was a favourite) and compose Greek verse. However, some of the candidates would cheat by hiring substitutes -- classical scholars who would impersonate them in the exams. This was a good thing, as it provided employment for classical scholars; the downside of it was that the successful candidates would then go on to get civil service jobs, only to find themselves unable to write Greek verse, should their work require it.

Edited by Russell C McGregor

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Not long ago, the British civil service used to have an entrance examination that was heavy on the classics; candidates would translate some standard Latin texts (Caesar's Gallic Wars was a favourite) and compose Greek verse. However, some of the candidates would cheat by hiring substitutes -- classical scholars who would impersonate them in the exams. This was a good thing, as it provided employment for classical scholars; the downside of it was that the successful candidates would then go on to get civil service jobs, only to find themselves unable to write Greek verse, should their work require it.

 

Okay, and just how often did their work as civil servants require them to be able to write Greek verse?  And why?

 

My original study of science was Chemistry, and a bit of familiarity with Latin and Greek would sometimes help with understanding naming conventions and why certain things were named the way they were, and the more so for if I had been involved in Biology.  But Greek verse in the British civil service?  Hmmm.

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Long before this, I was once at a pizza joint to pick up a pizza, and there was this guy who was also waiting who looked vaguely familiar, but I couldn't figure out why.  So I gave him my standard "Hi, I've not met you before, what's your name?" and he gave it to me!  He turned out to be the Governor of the state (Gary Locke).  Imagine my surprise that the Governor would go pick up his own pizza!

 

Hello Stargazer...

The only problem I have with your approach is, as a woman, I would be hesitant to answwer a "Hi... what's your name" inquiry of a stranger, male or female.

I would be more inclined and less skeptical if the approach was... "Hi, my name is James Smith... I've never met you before... and you are???"  Or just let the person say... hello, I'm John Doe, etc... on his/her own...

 

GG

Edited by Garden Girl

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Hello Stargazer...

The only problem I have with your approach is, as a woman, I would be hesitant to answwer a "Hi... what's your name" inquiry of a stranger, male or female.

I would be more inclined and less skeptical if the approach was... "Hi, my name is James Smith... I've never met you before... and you are???"  Or just let the person say... hello, I'm John Doe, etc... on his/her own...

 

GG

 

Actually, I was misquoting myself.  When I do this, before I ask their name I give mine.  It is actually impolite and borderline hostile (depending on circumstances) to ask a stranger for their name without first revealing yours.  Regardless of sex. 

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I am also trying to figure out what women having boob jobs has to do with it all. Maybe if the women had more boob jobs less men would leave the church? (.)(.) >>> ( . )( . )

Brazilian women opt for breast reductions, rather than enhancements.  Do they know something that American women do not?

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"A study from Trinity College’s American Religious Identification Survey (ARIS) on the demographics of Mormons. According to the ARIS study, there are now 150 Mormon women for every 100 Mormon men in the state of Utah—a 50 percent oversupply of women. 
 
The lopsided numbers encourage Mormon men to hold out for the perfect wife, Blake said. “I call it the paradox of choice,” she explained. “For men, there are so many choices that choices are not made. The dream for the Mormon man is to get married and have six kids. As he ages, his dream never changes. But when you’re a thirty-seven-year-old woman, you’ve already aged out of that dream.”
 
Mormon men take full advantage. “They wait for the next, more perfect woman,” grumbled Bowman, a veterinarian in San Diego. Premarital sex remains taboo for Mormons, but the shortage of Mormon men was pushing some women over the brink. “There might actually be a more promiscuous dating culture than there otherwise would be in the Mormon culture because of this gap.”
 
Hunt, a 35-year-old who only recently got married herself, told me she has three times more single women than single men in her matchmaking database. She shared stories of devout Mormon women who wound up marrying outside the religion—officially known as the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints—simply because they had no other options. She has ten friends—“all good LDS girls!”—who gave up on finding a husband and decided to have children on their own. Said Hunt, “My heartstrings are pulled daily.”
 

 

http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/53117548-78/mormons-utah-percent-mormon.html.csp .

 

Maybe it's time to bring back polygamy so that faithful women will not be going without . . .

 

The survey did not count children (where there is better balance), but it allowed its data to be skewed by the fact that elderly women far outnumber men (by more than double) -- most of those women not interested in remarriage.

 

Otherwise the population of Utah has a nice balance:

Population of Utah, 2014/2015
Male ................Female ..............Total
 
1,388,317....... 1,375,568.......... 2,763,885

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"A study from Trinity College’s American Religious Identification Survey (ARIS) on the demographics of Mormons. According to the ARIS study, there are now 150 Mormon women for every 100 Mormon men in the state of Utah—a 50 percent oversupply of women.

http://time.com/dateonomics/

Being recently divorced, this is good to know. If/when I'm ready to remarry, I'm moving to Utah.

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Being recently divorced, this is good to know. If/when I'm ready to remarry, I'm moving to Utah.

Having been divorced in Utah, let me be the first to tell you you'll be in good company.

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My soldier/son/RM would love to know eligible LDS women. But he is stationed in NY above the arctic circle.

"NY above the arctic circle" ... Is that sarcastic, failed geography, or a comment on frigid women in the Empire State?

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Many RM dudes are looking for a beutiful LDS girl, many won't cosider a girl that is overweight or simply not attractive.

The same problem existed in the 19th century, Heber C. Kimball said (according to Stanley P. Hirshson), "The brother missionaries have been in the habit of picking out the prettiest women for themselves before they get here, and bringing on the ugly ones for us"

Not an authentic quote.

But then again, Heber C. Kimball probably didn't believe in global warming either, so defaming him must be okay, right?

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