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 Being an eagle scout really doesn't mean anything anymore (most LDS scout troops don't take the whole program as seriously as it's supposed to be anyway) and no one cares outside of the LDS community whether or not you are one.

 

Just my two cents...

This is not true, i've gotten job offers compared to stronger resumes simply because I was an eagle scout. (The experience is from job fairs with group interviews, which weren't competitive in nature, all of us could have received an offer in at least one instance)

It can make a huge difference. Not all LDS troops run a poor program either, just a whole lot of them.

Edited by Crypto

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Most bishops will wait to see what the bishops conference says. In this case, it would be the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops (USCCB). Historically, the bishop is the spiritual pastor of any given geographical area. He will give an account to God for the rule of his children. From my understanding of Catholic teaching, regardless of what some modern bishops conference says, the bishop remains accountable for what he teaches his children. I applaud the bishop of Bismarck for his courage. But as I suggested, I think the majority of US bishops will oppose him, strenuously and wrongly. Catholic Tradition opposes the teaching that faith and morals are decided according to democratic principles. The bishops conferences don't seem to recognize that.

As you know, Rory, in November 2005, the Vatican issued an “Instruction Concerning the Criteria for the Discernment of Vocations with regard to Persons with Homosexual Tendencies in view of their Admission to the Seminary and to Holy Orders” (Congregation for Catholic Education of the Roman Curia). According to the new policy, men with "transitory" homosexual leanings may be ordained deacons following three years of prayer and chastity. However, men with "deeply rooted homosexual tendencies" or who are sexually active cannot be ordained. 

 
The Catechism distinguishes between homosexual acts and homosexual tendencies. Regarding acts, it teaches that Sacred Scripture presents them as grave sins. The Tradition has constantly considered them as intrinsically immoral and contrary to the natural law. Consequently, under no circumstance can they be approved.....In the light of such teaching, this Dicastery, in accord with the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments, believes it necessary to state clearly that the Church, while profoundly respecting the persons in question, cannot admit to the seminary or to holy orders those who practise homosexuality, present deep-seated homosexual tendencies or support the so-called "gay culture".  "Congregation for Catholic Education, Instruction concerning the criteria for the discernment of vocations with regard to persons with homosexual tendencies in view of their admission to the seminary and to Holy Orders". 
 
According to the New York Times, Vatican investigators were instructed to visit each of the 229 seminaries in the United States, specifically with the plan to look for “evidence of homosexuality.”
 
The Vatican followed up in 2008 with a directive to implement psychological screening for candidates for the priesthood. Conditions listed for exclusion from the priesthood include "uncertain sexual identity" and "deep-seated homosexual tendencies".  "Guidelines for the Use of Psychology in the Admission and Formation of Candidates for the Priesthood" (Congregation for Catholic Education of the Roman Curia, June 28, 2008).
 
Is Pope Francis continuing these policies, and are they being followed by the USCCB?

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As you know, Rory, in November 2005, the Vatican issued an “Instruction Concerning the Criteria for the Discernment of Vocations with regard to Persons with Homosexual Tendencies in view of their Admission to the Seminary and to Holy Orders” (Congregation for Catholic Education of the Roman Curia). According to the new policy, men with "transitory" homosexual leanings may be ordained deacons following three years of prayer and chastity. However, men with "deeply rooted homosexual tendencies" or who are sexually active cannot be ordained. 

 
The Catechism distinguishes between homosexual acts and homosexual tendencies. Regarding acts, it teaches that Sacred Scripture presents them as grave sins. The Tradition has constantly considered them as intrinsically immoral and contrary to the natural law. Consequently, under no circumstance can they be approved.....In the light of such teaching, this Dicastery, in accord with the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments, believes it necessary to state clearly that the Church, while profoundly respecting the persons in question, cannot admit to the seminary or to holy orders those who practise homosexuality, present deep-seated homosexual tendencies or support the so-called "gay culture".  "Congregation for Catholic Education, Instruction concerning the criteria for the discernment of vocations with regard to persons with homosexual tendencies in view of their admission to the seminary and to Holy Orders". 
 
According to the New York Times, Vatican investigators were instructed to visit each of the 229 seminaries in the United States, specifically with the plan to look for “evidence of homosexuality.”
 
The Vatican followed up in 2008 with a directive to implement psychological screening for candidates for the priesthood. Conditions listed for exclusion from the priesthood include "uncertain sexual identity" and "deep-seated homosexual tendencies".  "Guidelines for the Use of Psychology in the Admission and Formation of Candidates for the Priesthood" (Congregation for Catholic Education of the Roman Curia, June 28, 2008).
 
Is Pope Francis continuing these policies, and are they being followed by the USCCB?

 

 

Robert, hi.

 

I do not know. I see little reason for confidence that the policy, publicly acceptable in 2005 because of the recent scandals over predator priests was ever enforced worldwide in the first place. By 2015, such a policy would seem to indicate a bias that would not now be as acceptable to those whose views most of the prelates of the Church admire and emulate. I doubt that reasonable disciplinary laws compatible with Traditional Catholic teaching that were promulgated under the unpopular Pope Benedict, would carry very much weight today.

 

I suppose, seeing my critical spirit towards Modern Rome, and the prelates of the Church as a whole, it could be asked why I continue to identify myself as a Catholic. Briefly, I hold that like Our Lord Jesus Christ, His Bride, the Church, is also both human and divine. On the Cross, the divine nature of our good Lord was completely hidden except to a handful: Our Lord's Blessed Mother, and the other faithful women. St. John too, had extraordinary faith that made him stay with Jesus also. They must have presented a strange sight to the rest of those assembled at Calvary as they maintained their silent, sorrowful, and loving vigil before a "God" who to the crowd, barely seemed human in His torments, indeed, as "a worm, and no man."

 

It seems to me in our times, that like her suffering Spouse at Calvary, the Church, according to all naturally visible indications, appears to be at most, a decent human institution, and to many, quite an unattractive one. Her divinity, and God's supreme love for her is hidden from those who look upon the appearance of the moment. Most of Jesus' apostles and disciples  scattered at the Passion of the Christ. They forgot His miracles. Most importantly, they forgot His prophetic promise when "Jesus began to shew to his disciples, that he must go to Jerusalem, and suffer many things from the ancients and scribes and chief priests, and be put to death, and the third day rise again."   (Mt.16:21) They behaved when He was crucified as though Hell had prevailed over the Son of God.

 

In the same chapter of St. Matthew's Gospel, a few verses earlier, Jesus explained that the Church He would found would be built upon Peter the Rock. He made a good promise too. "The gates of Hell will not prevail." Does not this imply that the gates of Hell will at some future time appear to have prevailed, when a chosen generation might be among those who see a "passion of the Church"? Most modern non-Catholics think the Catholic Church is better than ever. They like a Catholic Church that doesn't have miracles and fulfilled prophecies that point to distinct teachings of Catholic Tradition. Just as the Romans who were present for Christ's Crucifixion were mostly bewildered at events they could not comprehend, so I doubt that many would be able to understand why I choose to stand by the Church Crucified.

 

We who believe in the Church built upon a Rock have been given the signs. It has been foretold, and relative to the long life of the Church, only yesterday. Even having been foretold of the turning away from the faith in the highest places, the diabolical disorientation of the Church still makes us grieve. I see many who believe like me, abandoning Peter. They call it sedevacantism. An empty seat. Peter is not to be found according to these. If I am critical, I firmly hold that Pope Francis is the successor of Peter. It is possible that in my frustration over appearances, I have been too outspoken when I hear praise of Modern Rome, and especially the current pope, by non-Catholics. If so, I apologize, and I hope that it can be seen by those who might try to be sensitive, Robert, that it is because it seems to me that much of the praise reflects a profound renunciation for what I perceive as holy pageant: That is, the great popes, the saints, the traditions, and the civilization, also crumbling, built on the foundation of Eternal Rome. I love what the world despises.

 

I find it impossible to reconcile Eternal Rome with Modern Rome, except with a theory akin to what I have presented. Knowing the claims of Restorationists, if Modern Rome is getting closer to understanding God's revelation, I could never be Catholic. 2015 is too late to finally stop corrupting the Gospel of Christ. 

 

In any event, by God's grace, if the Church ever appears to be actually dead, hopefully I will be found keeping vigil at the sepulchre. 

 

Rory

Edited by 3DOP

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It is one Bishop, and Catholic Bishops have always had full autonomy over their area. Each diocese is understood as a local church, and is governed by the Bishop. Such as seen in the New Testament, in letters and the Apocalypse that address local churches. The Bishops are in communion with each other, via conferences, and all Bishops are in communion with the Bishop of Rome.

As a Catholc, my allegiance, in terms of obedience to Catholic leadership, is to my Bishop first. If the Pope said, Boy Scouts are out, and my Bishop said, Boy Scouts are ok. It is the Bishop who our diocese would follow. But that is just hypothetical. Boy Scouts are not a Catholic Church organization, and I doubt very much that the Pope would make a universal teaching about Boy Scouts. It is a decision of the local church, ie Bishop. And really, I see the question, of whether or not a parish should participate in Boy Scouts, as a pastoral question, that could be answered differently in every parish.

Our diocese is currently without a Bishop. Boy Scouts are just going on at my parish like nothing happened. A couple of weeks ago the parish bulletin had a request for volunteers, for Boy Scout leaders.

Edited by saemo

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"As a Catholc, my allegiance, in terms of obedience to Catholic leadership, is to my Bishop"

Then why is there a Pope at all?

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"As a Catholc, my allegiance, in terms of obedience to Catholic leadership, is to my Bishop"

Then why is there a Pope at all?

Well, the Catholic Church is governed by all the Bishops. One has primacy, the Bishop of Rome. In terms of Keys, the Church holds the Keys, the Bishop of Rome, as successor to Peter, exercises the primacy that was held by Peter.

So for the faithful, us, he is a sign of the continuing Church, but is not the Church itself. The Church is us. The laity, in communion with each other and our clergy, the clergy in a special communion with each other, and the Bishop of Rome, who holds a place of primacy over us all. The Majesterium, which is comprised of a conference of Bishops and the Pope, makes rulings and teaches regarding faith and morals.

I have an obligation to the Majesterium, which is adhernce to Church teaching. If/when the Pope makes a statement of infallibility, which is very rare, I do have the obligation to to adhere to that teaching.

The Pope does not govern my diocese, directly, though. The Bishop does. The Bishop has jurisdiction and the duty to make rulings that are of impact to the local church (diocese). There may be instances where the local Bishop rules differently, but his ruling should be in communion with the Bishop of Rome. By that I mean, a Bishop cannot start teaching that murder is ok, and we all have to follow that. We also have an obligation as Catholics to discern what we are being obedient to, and not go against faith or morals. This bottom up, kind of understanding, is call sensus fidei.

If you are interested in a more thorough discussion of all of this, the dogmatic constitutional document, Lumen Gentium, covers it.

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..................................................   

The Pope does not govern my diocese, directly, though. The Bishop does. The Bishop has jurisdiction and the duty to make rulings that are of impact to the local church (diocese). There may be instances where the local Bishop rules differently, but his ruling should be in communion with the Bishop of Rome. By that I mean, a Bishop cannot start teaching that murder is ok, and we all have to follow that. We also have an obligation as Catholics to discern what we are being obedient to, and not go against faith or morals. This bottom up, kind of understanding, is call sensus fidei.

..................................................

Sounds very much like the decentralized authority of the local LDS bishop.  Do you have any thoughts on how Roman Catholic and LDS bishops are similar and different?

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Sounds very much like the decentralized authority of the local LDS bishop.  Do you have any thoughts on how Roman Catholic and LDS bishops are similar and different?

Besides the obvious, that Catholic Bishops are trained. I'd say there are differing views in how we view the offices.

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It's a brand of motorcycle.  I used to own one when I lived in England.  It was a 175cc two-stroke that I drove everywhere.  Sweet bike.  "BSA" stood for Birmington Small Arms, and they originally made pistols and rifles, but later diversified.

Dang, you beat me to it.

My father used to own one. He said that the "BSA" should stand for "Bl***y Sore A**e" since the suspension wasn't all that great.

So yours was a two-stroke, was it? Does that mean it could almost go?

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I don't see this happening unless the LDS church is forced to put in gay men over the scouts.

My current Bishop would die first before doing that. I'm sure the general authorities would too. 

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As a mother to a cub scout and scout, i secretly have my fingers crossed that the church gets out of the program. My husband is a convert and never did scouts and i had no brothers so scouts is like this foreign country that we are forced to navigate thru and exist in, even though we never wanted to visit in the first place.

I feel like the time investiture into scouts, as well as the mental stress of it all, is not worth the payout. Being an eagle scout really doesn't mean anything anymore (most LDS scout troops don't take the whole program as seriously as it's supposed to be anyway) and no one cares outside of the LDS community whether or not you are one.

Just my two cents...

Being an Eagle scout, at least as far as I understand it, should really have never meant anything as to what you get. It should matter as to who the boy is and what it makes of him.

If the church gets out I will be in agreement, but I will also ask my son if he would like to join a non church troop at least until hr finishes his eagle. I'm trying to teach him it is what he learns from it that matters and he is on the edge of really getting that. It will be worth it to me to keep him in a little longer while he gets as good grip of that understanding.

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