Designing A Church-Based Replacement For Scouting -- Thinking Outside The Box

[Scott Lloyd]

It has been publicly confirmed that the Church of Jesus Christ is considering ending its century-old association with the Scouting movement and designing an international program to replace it.

 

While the decision is by no means settled yet, in the event that it does happen, this thread is an invitation for suggestions as to what such a program might look like.

 

I hesitated to use the expression "think outside the box" as that has become cliche, but I can't immediately think of any other imagery that adequately conveys the idea: Don't be bound by the idea that the replacement must resemble the Scouting movement in every -- or even in any -- respect. Let your imagination work. What core values need to be fostered? What elements of Scouting should be discarded as no longer relevant to today's needs (do youth still need to know how to tie various kinds of knots, for example)?

 

Above all, should the new program involve girls as well as boys, with comparable access to training, activities, funding, etc.?

 

To spark some ideas, I present this link to a blog post I found, emphasizing that I am not endorsing it in any respect, merely presenting it as grist for thought.

 

Thoughts? Suggestions? Considerations?

Edited August 3, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[Buckeye]

Why not first look to how the church operates outside the US? I live and served a misison state-side, so I don't have any personal experience with LDS congregrations that are non-scouting. For those who do have such experience, what have you seen that works best?

[Scott Lloyd]

Why not first look to how the church operates outside the US? I live and served a misison state-side, so I don't have any personal experience with LDS congregrations that are non-scouting. For those who do have such experience, what have you seen that works best?

That's not a bad thought, but I'm guessing those programs would largely imitate Scouting, as that has so long been the youth program of the Church.

 

What' I'm trying to get across is that now is a good opportunity to not be bound by past constraints or traditions. The new program, whatever it is, ought to meet today's needs and not merely carry forward past practices for their own sake.

[Stone holm]

If they do jump out of Scouting, I hope they go co-educational so that the boys and girls get the same equitable treatment. But, I hope they do that by bringing YW up to parity with the BSA program for the boys. It seems to me to try and duplicate the quality of the BSA program is going to be either not possible or quite a bit more expensive than we realize. If it just turns into another "let's preach some more" program for the youth, its going to be a flop.

[Scott Lloyd]

If they do jump out of Scouting, I hope they go co-educational so that the boys and girls get the same equitable treatment. But, I hope they do that by bringing YW up to parity with the BSA program for the boys. It seems to me to try and duplicate the quality of the BSA program is going to be either not possible or quite a bit more expensive than we realize. If it just turns into another "let's preach some more" program for the youth, its going to be a flop.

I will be one to say the emperor has no clothes.

 

There is a lot of fat in BSA, and there are a lot of relics from the past. I think we will be pleasantly surprised at how efficiently it can be run when all of that is gone, including the need to fund the six-figure salaries and the corporate jets and other perqs of executives.

 

Now, if old-timers insist on carrying forward a lot of the relics (uniforms, for example), it might end up being inordinately expensive.

Edited August 3, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[Buckeye]

For the record, I'm still hopefully the church continues its association.  But I think the possibility of divorce is enough that this thread has merit.

 

 

That's not a bad thought, but I'm guessing those programs would largely imitate Scouting, as that has so long been the youth program of the Church.

 

What' I'm trying to get across is that now is a good opportunity to not be bound by past constraints or traditions. The new program, whatever it is, ought to meet today's needs and not merely carry forward past practices for their own sake.

 

My assumption was the opposite. I wouldn't think that YM programs in other countries (except perhaps canada) would try to mimic scouts. How would you do that anyway? Just focus on outdoors and camping, but no badges or troop structure? But I could be wrong.

 

I will make one prediction. The program would have a fairly strong "missionary prep" element to it. Probably lots of skills training for cooking, learing new cultures, etc. In the event that YM and YW are aligned in their programs (pretty likely IMO) this will have the side-effect that even more pressue will be placed on YW to serve missions. It will be odd to keep reminding the YW "okay, a primary purpose of the youth program is to prepare you for missions, but it's totally okay if you don't do that. But YM, you're totally expected to." That's no more effective than saying "a primary purpose of the youth program is to prep you for the temple, but its' totally okay if you never get endowed."

 

Whatever happens, my biggest concern is that the program will not hold enough interest to compete with homework, sports, band, and other extracurriculars. If all we do is create a "super DTG" it will be a failure in my area where youth have to drive over an hour round-trip for wednesday activities.

[MorningStar]

I would be happy to do away with uniforms and just have t-shirts or something.  It gets so expensive for families.

 

I think if there's a church run program, there should be an emphasis on getting ready for missions (knowing how to do your own laundry, cook, and other basic things), budgeting, food storage (teach them how to can, make bread from scratch, etc.), and lots of things that will prepare them for jobs - how to interview, write a cover letter, resume.  Various job skills whether it be computer related or construction.  I think it would be awesome if boys and girls could do the program together!

 

When I was in YW, I got so annoyed when we were learning how to cook and stuff while the boys were water skiing.  Then one of your YW leaders thought it would be a good idea to go serve the Deacons lunch while they were chopping wood.  Have them pack their own lunch! 

 

I think activities like learning how to earthquake proof someone's home would be awesome.  Have them learn how to anchor a bookcase to a wall and that sort of thing.  There are so many things to learn before you have your own family.    I have a ton of stuff to learn myself. 

[DragonLancer]

It has been publicly confirmed that the Church of Jesus Christ is considering ending its century-old association with the Scouting movement and designing an international program to replace it.

 

While the decision is by no means settled yet, in the event that it does happen, this thread is an invitation for suggestions as to what such a program might look like.

 

I hesitated to use the expression "think outside the box" as that has become cliche, but I can't immediately think of any other imagery that adequately conveys the idea: Don't be bound by the idea that the replacement must resemble the Scouting movement in every -- or even in any -- respect. Let your imagination work. What core values need to be fostered? What elements of Scouting should be discarded as no longer relevant to today's needs (do youth still need to know how to tie various kinds of knots, for example)?

 

Above all, should the new program involve girls as well as boys, with comparable access to training, activities, funding, etc.?

 

To spark some ideas, I present this link to a blog post I found, emphasizing that I am not endorsing it in any respect, merely presenting it as grist for thought.

 

Thoughts? Suggestions? Considerations?

 

I think that the Church should design it so that they have complete control, entirely independent from the scouts.  But that they strongly consider using their lawyers to craft something with the BSA (perhaps akin to a franchise instead of the current "charters") that keeps our rank in our own program nationally recognized by the BSA.  I think a new legal framework needs to be invented entirely so that our scouts are not "Boy Scouts of America", but that they still earn the Eagle Scout award recognized by the BSA at the end of the process.  If they pay the BSA enough money for this recognition, anything is possible.

Edited August 3, 2015 by DragonLancer

[Scott Lloyd]

For the record, I'm still hopefully the church continues its association.  But I think the possibility of divorce is enough that this thread has merit.

 

 

 

My assumption was the opposite. I wouldn't think that YM programs in other countries (except perhaps canada) would try to mimic scouts. How would you do that anyway? Just focus on outdoors and camping, but no badges or troop structure? But I could be wrong.

 

I will make one prediction. The program would have a fairly strong "missionary prep" element to it. Probably lots of skills training for cooking, learing new cultures, etc. In the event that YM and YW are aligned in their programs (pretty likely IMO) this will have the side-effect that even more pressue will be placed on YW to serve missions. It will be odd to keep reminding the YW "okay, a primary purpose of the youth program is to prepare you for missions, but it's totally okay if you don't do that. But YM, you're totally expected to." That's no more effective than saying "a primary purpose of the youth program is to prep you for the temple, but its' totally okay if you never get endowed."

 

Whatever happens, my biggest concern is that the program will not hold enough interest to compete with homework, sports, band, and other extracurriculars. If all we do is create a "super DTG" it will be a failure in my area where youth have to drive over an hour round-trip for wednesday activities.

It could contribute to mission preparation without conveying the idea that young women are expected to serve. Many of the qualities, attributes and achievements necessary for missionary service are identical to those necessary for life.

 

Currently, there are programs for mission preparation that exist outside of the Scouting program in the Church. These could remain separate.

[Scott Lloyd]

I would be happy to do away with uniforms and just have t-shirts or something.  It gets so expensive for families.

 

I think if there's a church run program, there should be an emphasis on getting ready for missions (knowing how to do your own laundry, cook, and other basic things), budgeting, food storage (teach them how to can, make bread from scratch, etc.), and lots of things that will prepare them for jobs - how to interview, write a cover letter, resume.  Various job skills whether it be computer related or construction.  I think it would be awesome if boys and girls could do the program together!

 

When I was in YW, I got so annoyed when we were learning how to cook and stuff while the boys were water skiing.  Then one of your YW leaders thought it would be a good idea to go serve the Deacons lunch while they were chopping wood.  Have them pack their own lunch! 

 

I think activities like learning how to earthquake proof someone's home would be awesome.  Have them learn how to anchor a bookcase to a wall and that sort of thing.  There are so many things to learn before you have your own family.    I have a ton of stuff to learn myself. 

Bravo!

 

Having the program for boys and girls integrated together would go a long way toward eliminating such stereotyping as you describe here.

[Buckeye]

I think that the Church should design it so that they have complete control, entirely independent from the scouts.  But that they strongly consider using their lawyers to craft something with the BSA (perhaps akin to a franchise instead of the current "charters") that keeps our rank in our own program nationally recognized by the BSA.  I think a new legal framework needs to be invented entirely so that our scouts are not "Boy Scouts of America", but that they still earn the Eagle Scout award recognized by the BSA at the end of the process.  If they pay the BSA enough money for this recognition, anything is possible.

 

Um ... eagle scout and other BSA awards are only issued through BSA-chartered organizations. I'm sure an LDS kid could earn eagle by becoming a member of a non-LDS troop and earning the award. But if the LDS church were to make its own "eagle" I'm quite sure BSA would not recognize it. However, it would still recognize LDS religious awards, such as On My Honor, but again these would be awards earned by LDS youth you choose to become involved in BSA through another troop.

[Lachoneus]

It should not be hard to expand the current Duty to God program to include those elements that would be lost by exiting from the BSA. We already have an exclusive LDS outdoor program for the girls. Adapting that program for the boys should not be difficult, especially with all the men in the Church with extensive Scouting backgrounds and outdoor skills. I have spent 40+ years in Scouting,but if the prophets tell us to go our own way, I will be right there.

[DragonLancer]

Um ... eagle scout and other BSA awards are only issued through BSA-chartered organizations. I'm sure an LDS kid could earn eagle by becoming a member of a non-LDS troop and earning the award. But if the LDS church were to make its own "eagle" I'm quite sure BSA would not recognize it. However, it would still recognize LDS religious awards, such as On My Honor, but again these would be awards earned by LDS youth you choose to become involved in BSA through another troop.

 

This is why it cannot be a "charter."  It must be something new.   I'm not so sure they would recognize it automatically which is why I said that I think a new legal framework would need to be crafted/invented, where it is independent of the BSA, but recognized by the BSA.  There is nothing that cannot be done here if the Church puts enough money and legal smarts into this.  The sky is the limit.  I don't know what you would call it, but it would be like paying them royalties for the rights to do something that is recognized by them.  Something like a franchise but that word doesn't describe what I mean very well.

Edited August 3, 2015 by DragonLancer

[Buckeye]

This is why it cannot be a "charter."  It must be something new.   I'm not so sure they would recognize it automatically which is why I said that I think a new legal framework would need to be crafted/invented, where it is independent of the BSA, but recognized by the BSA.  There is nothing that cannot be done here if the Church puts enough money and legal smarts into this.  The sky is the limit.  I don't know what you would call it, but it would be like paying them royalties for the rights to do something that is recognized by them.  Something like a franchise but that word doesn't describe what I mean very well.

 

What is "it"? I assume you're talking about a Duty to God award of something else momentous that our church would award. If so, why would BSA "recognize" that award? What would BSA recognition even mean? The BSA does not "recognize" my kid's band awards, baseball trophies, or junior ranger badges from national parks. Why would it recognize an award that was uniquely-LDS?

[DragonLancer]

What is "it"? I assume you're talking about a Duty to God award of something else momentous that our church would award. If so, why would BSA "recognize" that award? What would BSA recognition even mean? The BSA does not "recognize" my kid's band awards, baseball trophies, or junior ranger badges from national parks. Why would it recognize an award that was uniquely-LDS?

 

No.  I'm talking about the church literally awarding its own rank equivalent to the BSA ranks, and then having the eagle awarded by the Church be recognized by the BSA as a valid eagle.  And why would they do it?  Because we would pay them money to do so.

Edited August 3, 2015 by DragonLancer

[rockpond]

Thoughts? Suggestions? Considerations?

 

If it happens (my money is still on us continuing with the BSA) but if we do cut ties...

 

I hope that they won't try to replicate elements like:  merit badges, rank advancements, and uniforms.

 

What I would love to see is something like a loose activity plan that our YM & YW leaders could follow for weekly activities each month.  Off the top of my head, something like this:

• Week 1:  Community Service
• Week 2:  Learn a new skill
• Week 3:  Sports night
• Week 4:  Work on a Duty to God requirement

And, I'd love to see it recommend quarterly retreats or campouts that have spiritual, skill-based, and service-based elements.

[Buckeye]

It should not be hard to expand the current Duty to God program to include those elements that would be lost by exiting from the BSA. We already have an exclusive LDS outdoor program for the girls. Adapting that program for the boys should not be difficult, especially with all the men in the Church with extensive Scouting backgrounds and outdoor skills. I have spent 40+ years in Scouting,but if the prophets tell us to go our own way, I will be right there.

 

Somethings can't or wouldn't be duplicated. We can't duplicate the well-known "brand" of BSA or Eagle Scouts - which while less than in the past still has some cache. For example, I don't expect the US military will give a rank boost to LDS award winners as they to do eagles. I the hiring manager at the local walmart might be impressed to see "Eagle," but not a uniquely-LDS award that he's never seen.

 

Many of the bigger activities simply won't make the budget. We won't have climbing walls, zip-lines, or philmont ranch.

 

And I'm surprised to see the quick dismissal of scout uniforms. I agree that they are overpriced. But I would think that people who value YM dressed in white shirts and ties for the sacrament would also value YM dressed in a sharp uniform for youth events. Having been to many scout camps - including all-LDS scout camps - I can say there is a marked difference between the troops where boys are expected to be in full uniform and those that dress down. For boys of this age, the shiny awards, troop flags, and uniforms all really do instill a belief that they are part of something bigger and important.

[The Nehor]

No.  I'm talking about the church literally awarding its own rank equivalent to the BSA ranks, and then having the eagle awarded by the Church be recognized by the BSA as a valid eagle.  And why would they do it?  Because we would pay them money to do so.

Why would we pay them anything?

[Buckeye]

No.  I'm talking about the church literally awarding its own rank equivalent to the BSA ranks, and then having the eagle awarded by the Church be recognized by the BSA as a valid eagle.  And why would they do it?  Because we would pay them money to do so.

 

You can't buy any eagle any more than you can buy the priesthood. If BSA is not overseeing our youth units (because we stopped chartering BSA units) then they will not recognize our "eagles" any more than we would recognize the community of christ's baptisms.

 

If an LDS boy wants to have an eagle recognized, he would have to join a BSA troop charted by someone else. And I think the church would approve of that.

 

ETA: more to the point, if the church drops scouting, it will not create a program that leads to an eagle. It won't be issuing 100s of merit badges that track BSA's requirement. And BSA rank advancements, including eagle, require the boy to be an active participant in a BSA unit.

Edited August 3, 2015 by Buckeye

[DragonLancer]

Why would we pay them anything?

 

Just like you pay anyone for the rights to anything.  If we care about rank, we would pay them for rights.

[DragonLancer]

Somethings can't or wouldn't be duplicated. We can't duplicate the well-known "brand" of BSA or Eagle Scouts - which while less than in the past still has some cache. For example, I don't expect the US military will give a rank boost to LDS award winners as they to do eagles. I the hiring manager at the local walmart might be impressed to see "Eagle," but not a uniquely-LDS award that he's never seen.

 

Many of the bigger activities simply won't make the budget. We won't have climbing walls, zip-lines, or philmont ranch.

 

And I'm surprised to see the quick dismissal of scout uniforms. I agree that they are overpriced. But I would think that people who value YM dressed in white shirts and ties for the sacrament would also value YM dressed in a sharp uniform for youth events. Having been to many scout camps - including all-LDS scout camps - I can say there is a marked difference between the troops where boys are expected to be in full uniform and those that dress down. For boys of this age, the shiny awards, troop flags, and uniforms all really do instill a belief that they are part of something bigger and important.

 

But this is why the BSA could issue eagles to the LDS people that get the parallel award.  It would still have the BSA "brand" in the end because we would pay them for the rights.

[Buckeye]

Just like you pay anyone for the rights to anything.  If we care about rank, we would pay them for rights.

 

Great. My temple recommend needs to be renewed next month. What's the going rate?

[DragonLancer]

You can't buy any eagle any more than you can buy the priesthood. If BSA is not overseeing our youth units (because we stopped chartering BSA units) then they will not recognize our "eagles" any more than we would recognize the community of christ's baptisms.

 

If an LDS boy wants to have an eagle recognized, he would have to join a BSA troop charted by someone else. And I think the church would approve of that.

 

ETA: more to the point, if the church drops scouting, it will not create a program that leads to an eagle. It won't be issuing 100s of merit badges that track BSA's requirement. And BSA rank advancements, including eagle, require the boy to be an active participant in a BSA unit.

 

Sorry, but your statement equating this to priesthood just made me laugh.

 

You can craft anything that is man-made to be anything you want it to be, given enough resources and laywers to write contracts, and two organizations coming to an agreement.

[stemelbow]

Seems simple.

Mix some great service oriented with some awesome sounding activities...put them in a book, include girls and women leaders. And voila--you have a pretty good little replacement.

[DragonLancer]

Great. My temple recommend needs to be renewed next month. What's the going rate?

 

So now, you resort to mocking.  You don't need to do that.  You can simply disagree amicably.