Boy Scout Executive Committee To Vote On Allowing Lgbt Leaders

[Buckeye]

Yesterday, a BSA executive committee unanimously voted to approve the recommendation of BSA President Robert Gates to allow local units discretion to set policies regarding LGBT scout leaders. The BSA press release is quoted below, along with the LDS Church's response. The committee's recommendation will be put to a vote of the entire executive board on July 27.

 

From my review, it appears that this recommendation parallels the plan considered in 2013, which was discussed on this board here: http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/59874-bsa-considering-ending-ban-on-homosexuals/?hl=scouts. The church did not formally take a stance on that recommendation. After opposition came from several prominent councils, including Salt Lake, BSA opted for the current policy - gay youth ok, leaders no.

 

The Church's response to the current recommendation also does not take a formal position other than to insist that the church be allowed to determine eligibility standards for its units - something that the recommendation provides for. While I do not expect the Church to make any other statements on the matter, it is worth noting that three prominent church leaders currently sit on the executive board and so will case votes on July 27:

• Stephen W. Owen, Young Men general president.
• Charles Dahlquist, former Young Men general president.
• Elder Jeffrey R. Holland, Quorum of the Twelve Apostles.

 http://www.ldsbsa.org/blog/highlights-of-the-2015-national-annual-meeting/

 

My personal reaction is the same I had in 2013. I support the move. I have three boys active in scouting. I have no worries for their safety. Opening scouting to include LGBT members is the right thing to do and will strengthen the movement.

 

 

During the 2015 Boy Scouts of America National Annual Meeting in May, Dr. Gates encouraged the Scouting family to reflect on the challenges, primarily regarding adult leadership standards, facing the BSA and potential alternatives for addressing them.

 

As a result of the rapid changes in society and increasing legal challenges at the federal, state, and local levels, on Friday, July 10, the Boy Scouts of America Executive Committee adopted a resolution amending the adult leadership standards policy. The resolution was unanimously adopted by those present and voting.

 

This resolution will allow chartered organizations to select adult leaders without regard to sexual orientation, continuing Scouting’s longstanding policy of chartered organizations selecting their leaders. The National Executive Board will meet to ratify this resolution on Monday, July 27. 

 

This change allows Scouting’s members and parents to select local units, chartered to organizations with similar beliefs, that best meet the needs of their families. This change would also respect the right of religious chartered organizations to continue to choose adult leaders whose beliefs are consistent with their own. The 2013 youth membership policy will not be affected and remains unchanged.

 

Scouting will continue to focus on reaching and serving youth to help them grow into good, strong citizens. By focusing on the goals that unite us, we are able to accomplish incredible things for young people and the communities we serve.

 

http://scoutingnewsroom.org/blog/update-on-adult-leadership-standards/

 

 

 

“As a chartering organization, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has always had the right to select Scout leaders who adhere to moral and religious principles that are consistent with our doctrines and beliefs.  Any resolution adopted by the Boy Scouts of America regarding leadership in Scouting must continue to affirm that right.”

 

http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/church-comments-on-boy-scouts-of-america-resolution-on-adult-leader-standards

 

[Scott Lloyd]

I see in the Church's response to this a civil but firm manifesto that it will not be backed into corner on this. The use of the verb "must" is very significant. My personal prediction is that the moment there is an effort to compel the Church to act contrary to its clearly stated principles is the moment the Church withdraws from Scouting.

Will the gay rights movement step in then to fill the support vacuum? My sense is that it won't. I don't believe gay rights advocates have any great love for Scouting. BSA might want to consider that, because I don't believe the juggernaut is going to let the matter rest with this concession.

Edited July 14, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[Buckeye]

I see in the Church's response to this a civil but firm manifesto that it will not be backed into corner on this. The use of the verb "must" is very significant. My personal prediction is that the moment there is an effort to compel the Church to act contrary to its clearly stated principles is the moment the Church withdraws from Scouting.

Will the gay rights movement step in then to fill the support vacuum? My sense is that it won't. I don't believe gay rights advocates have any great love for Scouting. BSA might want to consider that, because I don't believe the juggernaut is going to let the matter rest with this concession.

 

I completely agree with you that, were the church to exit scouting, gay rights advocates would not fill the void. BSA is walking a careful dance. It knows the importance of the church - an importance much greater than just 3 votes on the board. That's why I'm convinced that behind the scenes the church has already given approval to this move. President Gates' address was delivered several weeks ago. The executive committee's meeting and vote was no secret. There's no way it would have been unanimous if the church wasn't already on board.

 

The church's statement isn't about this immediate change; the proposed changes will clearly reflect that local chartering organizations have the right to set eligibility standards. Rather, the church is looking to a future date when a challenge to "local discretion" will be made. As a strong supporter of scouting, here's hoping that day is far away.

Edited July 14, 2015 by Buckeye

[tonie]

Will the gay rights movement step in then to fill the support vacuum? My sense is that it won't. I don't believe gay rights advocates have any great love for Scouting. BSA might want to consider that, because I don't believe the juggernaut is going to let the matter rest with this concession.

 

 

How does one develope such blinding animus?  Seriously Scott, you may not realize this, and you probably will deny it....But the LDS Church - by representation of the Council of the First Presidency and Quorum of the 12 Apostle, who speak for Christ -  can be considered a "gay rights advocate". The Church even announced its efforts for gay rights in the letter that was recently released.

 

Of course this Eagle Scout feature in the picture (front center Pascal Tessier Eagle Scout and openly gay) is just looking to have easy access to teenage boys, right; because we can not trust "them gays" to do anything except recruit for their perverse lifestyle.

 

Edited July 14, 2015 by tonie

[stemelbow]

I can't figure out how having gay scout leaders is in any way "compel[ling] the Church to act contrary to its clearly stated principles".

Kinda silly. It's cute too since the Church calls so many less-active and never mos to be scout leaders--at least from what I've seen. Some of the leaders the Church has called, actually drink, or smoke, or as gross as it is, view porn.

As it is a scout leader doesn't have to be "worthy" as the Church defines it.

[Buckeye]

tonie's right that plenty of LGBT people (and their supporters) support scouting. I know some myself. Their love of scouting is as great any anyone's. However, the numbers of these supporters are certainly fewer than LDS supporters.

[tonie]

I can't figure out how having gay scout leaders is in any way "compel[ling] the Church to act contrary to its clearly stated principles".

Kinda silly. It's cute too since the Church calls so many less-active and never mos to be scout leaders--at least from what I've seen. Some of the leaders the Church has called, actually drink, or smoke, or as gross as it is, view porn.

As it is a scout leader doesn't have to be "worthy" as the Church defines it.

 

What do you mean by "worthy"?

 

Local LDS Leadership "calls" the Scout Leaders - Scout Master, Varsity Scouts.  I think the subject is covered in the Church Handbook of Instruction.  And given that Church assignment of Scouting Leadership is so closely connected to membership standards, then yes, "forcing" the Church to assign openly active homosexuals to Scout positions would infringe on upon the rights of the Church.  It would not be a wise move on the part of BSA to remove the "local Charters may choose" clause.

[Duncan]

How does one develope such blinding animus?  Seriously Scott, you may not realize this, and you probably will deny it....But the LDS Church - by representation of the Council of the First Presidency and Quorum of the 12 Apostle, who speak for Christ -  can be considered a "gay rights advocate". The Church even announced its efforts for gay rights in the letter that was recently released.

 

Of course this Eagle Scout feature in the picture (front center Pascal Tessier Eagle Scout and openly gay) is just looking to have easy access to teenage boys, right; because we can not trust "them gays" to do anything except recruit for their perverse lifestyle.

 

 

 

is that that Daniel Arkuletta guy? 

[stemelbow]

What do you mean by "worthy"?

 

Local LDS Leadership "calls" the Scout Leaders - Scout Master, Varsity Scouts.  I think the subject is covered in the Church Handbook of Instruction.  And given that Church assignment of Scouting Leadership is so closely connected to membership standards, then yes, "forcing" the Church to assign openly active homosexuals to Scout positions would infringe on upon the rights of the Church.  It would not be a wise move on the part of BSA to remove the "local Charters may choose" clause.

I'm just saying I'm not completely sure the Church realizes on the local level in practice the Church isn't always making sure worthiness, church standards and all that, are in consideration when calling a scout leader.

[Jeanne]

How come nobody worries about a young girl going into the Bishop's office alone talking about worthiness and moral issues? My

daughter was asked about some very intimate things..I mean..same difference.

[cinepro]

What do you mean by "worthy"?

 

Local LDS Leadership "calls" the Scout Leaders - Scout Master, Varsity Scouts.  I think the subject is covered in the Church Handbook of Instruction.  And given that Church assignment of Scouting Leadership is so closely connected to membership standards, then yes, "forcing" the Church to assign openly active homosexuals to Scout positions would infringe on upon the rights of the Church.  It would not be a wise move on the part of BSA to remove the "local Charters may choose" clause.

 

How could BSA "force" the Church to do anything?

 

I mean, from a practical standpoint.  First, the BSA (and the Church) would have to officially track the sexual orientation of each potential leader.  Then the BSA would need to set some standard by which they expected the Church to call homosexual leaders.  Would it be one per council?  Ten per state?  Then how would the gay Church members feel if they were called to be Scoutmaster and they didn't want to do it, but they knew there was a quota to fill and that was the only reason (or part of the reason) they were called.

 

I'm sure there are a few wards in which there are potential leaders (who want to be a Scoutmaster) who are openly gay and who might be called (and who don't have another calling), but I suspect the number is well below 100 wards worldwide.  Being a Scoutmaster is a very hard calling; it demands a lot of time and planning, every week.  And it is very thankless; few ward members other than the parents of scouts know or care who the Scoutmaster is.

 

If there are gay members of the Church who want to be Scoutmasters and will invest the time, energy and money into it to get trained and run a good program, then good grief, who could ever have a problem with that?  Because heaven knows in most wards the heterosexual leaders are not running the program like they should.

Edited July 14, 2015 by cinepro

[Buckeye]

 

I'm just saying I'm not completely sure the Church realizes on the local level in practice the Church isn't always making sure worthiness, church standards and all that, are in consideration when calling a scout leader.

 

Below is a partial quote from Church Handbook for Scouting Section 8.5.  You don't have to be a member to serve in LDS scouting units. But you do have to be "worthy." Local leaders are left to determine worthiness. Worthy doesn't mean temple recommend, otherwise non-members wouldn't qualify. But no official direction is given to how low the bar can be. 

 

I wouldn't be surprised to see a non-member father who drinks coffee called as an assistant scoutmaster. How about a non-member father who smokes as scoutmaster? Sure, maybe. I have heard of celibate LGBT members who were called into scouting positions. I'm not surprised. But how about a married gay man? Conceivable under the current guidelines if the Bishop thought it wise and proper. I wouldn't be surprised if future scouting handbooks include a note addressing this (new) possibility.

 

 

 

Calling Adult Scouting Leaders 

 

Worthy adults, whether members of the Church or not, may be called to serve as Scouting leaders. A current membership record of each member called to serve in Scouting should be in the local unit. All adult Scouting leaders must be properly registered and must complete Youth Protection Training before beginning their service.

 

https://www.lds.org/bc/content/shared/english/young-men/35814_scout-handbook_eng.pdf?lang=eng

 

[stemelbow]

Scott:

Will the gay rights movement step in then to fill the support vacuum? My sense is that it won't. I don't believe gay rights advocates have any great love for Scouting. BSA might want to consider that, because I don't believe the juggernaut is going to let the matter rest with this concession.

Most people aren't interested in scouting. It seems the percent of people interested in scouting, generally, is fairly low. Can't expect gay people to be any different.

[Scott Lloyd]

How could BSA "force" the Church to do anything?

I mean, from a practical standpoint. First, the BSA (and the Church) would have to officially track the sexual orientation of each potential leader. Then the BSA would need to set some standard by which they expected the Church to call homosexual leaders. Would it be one per council? Ten per state? Then how would the gay Church members feel if they were called to be Scoutmaster and they didn't want to do it, but they knew there was a quota to fill and that was the only reason (or part of the reason) they were called.

I'm sure there are a few wards in which there are potential leaders (who want to be a Scoutmaster) who are openly gay and who might be called (and who don't have another calling), but I suspect the number is well below 100 wards worldwide. Being a Scoutmaster is a very hard calling; it demands a lot of time and planning, every week. And it is very thankless; few ward members other than the parents of scouts know or care who the Scoutmaster is.

If there are gay members of the Church who want to be Scoutmasters and will invest the time, energy and money into it to get trained and run a good program, then good grief, who could ever have a problem with that? Because heaven knows in most wards the heterosexual leaders are not running the program like they should.

The more likely scenario is that some militant, practicing homosexual, in order to force the political issue, would demand the privilege to lead an LDS troop and would try to leverage the national BSA leadership and ultimately the courts to make it happen.

I could envision that happening.

Edited July 15, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

Scott:

Most people aren't interested in scouting. It seems the percent of people interested in scouting, generally, is fairly low. Can't expect gay people to be any different.

Up to now there has been enough interest to keep Scouting viable. Without LDS participation, I suspect that would no longer be the case.

[Buckeye]

The more likely scenario is that some militant, practicing homosexual, in order to force the political issue, would demand the privilege to lead an LDS troop and would try to leverage the national BSA leadership to make it happen.

I could envision that happening.

 

That's precisely why I support gun control.  But tell me, are these the same militant gays who will show up to the SL Temple demanding to be married?

[Buckeye]

Up to now there has been enough interest to keep Scouting viable. Without LDS participation, I suspect that would no longer be the case.

 

Or Elder McConkie could turn out correct. The caravan moves on!

[Scott Lloyd]

That's precisely why I support gun control. But tell me, are these the same militant gays who will show up to the SL Temple demanding to be married?

By "militant," I don't mean "gun-toting." There are legal ways to attempt coercion. Surely you can see that. In fact, you as much as acknowledged it in your first response to me on this thread, when you said you hoped it was "a long way off."

There are people who are nasty enough to try to use the BSA leadership and/or the courts to force the Church to do their bidding.

[stemelbow]

Up to now there has been enough interest to keep Scouting viable. Without LDS participation, I suspect that would no longer be the case.

They've got that covered, I figure. By allowing gay men into the crew, they can introduce a whole new product line to entice new recruits. Edited July 14, 2015 by stemelbow

[Scott Lloyd]

Or Elder McConkie could turn out correct. The caravan moves on!

I don't recall that he had in mind BSA when he said that.

[rongo]

They've got that covered, I figure. By allowing gay men into the crew, they can introduce a whole new product line to entice new recruits.

Like what? Feather boas, instead of the merit badge sash?

 

<ducking>

 

Sorry! Couldn't resist.

[SmileyMcGee]

I guess I don't see the problem with openly gay adults being scoutmasters...are opponents implying that gay = pedophile? Or that homosexuality is a choice and gay scoutmasters will recruit kids into homosexuality? Or maybe allowing homosexuals to be scoutmasters will "trample" some religious "freedom."

[stemelbow]

Like what? Feather boas, instead of the merit badge sash?

 

<ducking>

 

Sorry! Couldn't resist.

Sure. Cross-dressing, clothing design, interior design (if it's not one already), make-up artist could all be added to the merit badge list. Eagle scouts might one day be less able to tie a standard knot, but far more able to dress a model before she traipses down the run-way.

[Buckeye]

 

 

I guess I don't see the problem with openly gay adults being scoutmasters...are opponents implying that gay = pedophile? Or that homosexuality is a choice and gay scoutmasters will recruit kids into homosexuality? Or maybe allowing homosexuals to be scoutmasters will "trample" some religious "freedom."

 

Each of those concerns are held by some portion of our country and, even more unfortunately, some part of our church. The more realistic "concern" is that this move marks another step in which church members - youth and adults - will come into contact with LGBT people, work with these fellow-scouters for a common cause, form friendships, and thereby also develop sympathies and support.

 

It's tough to hold out against gay families when, after a day of silent service at OA, a member of your team shares how important his husband is to him, or when you share a table with a pair of moms at the council pinewood derby, or when your son asks his camp climbing instructor about his plans for the weekend and is told he's going out with his boyfriend.

[Duncan]

I hope the Church and BSA realizes that Gay Scout leaders aren't the same as pedophiles. Gay men aren't interested in boys, they are interested in other gay men that they are attracted just like a Straight man is interested in Single women that they are attracted to