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cinepro

Youth Pioneer Treks And...mobs? "kill The Mormons!"

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I'm not sure about that.

 

While on a trek, I got this distinct impression as if someone was speaking to me saying, "why are you doing this? we did it because we had to."

And my response would have been, "Why not?"

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And my response would have been, "Why not?"

 

I don't doubt that.

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I'm not sure about that.

While on a trek, I got this distinct impression as if someone was speaking to me saying, "why are you doing this? we did it because we had to."

I wouldn't doubt that a lot of our ancestors whisper the same thing when we go camping for fun.

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I wouldn't doubt that a lot of our ancestors whisper the same thing when we go camping for fun.

 

I've never been on an commemorative, reenactment campout.

 

I've also never been on a trek, "for fun". :blink:

Edited by Senator

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I've never been on an commemorative, reenactment campout.

 

I've also never been on a trek, "for fun". :blink:

 

Well, they are!  They are a lot of fun!  But i've only been on one at Martin's Cove so that's my only experience.  

 

Apparently civil war reenactments are a lot of fun too, as is the Hill Cumorah pageant, though i've never been to or participated in either.  Both seem like a strange idea to me and i'm sure many an ancestor cringes at the war stuff.

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Well, they are!  They are a lot of fun!  But i've only been on one at Martin's Cove so that's my only experience.  

 

 

 

I've only been on one as well, and it certainly was not fun.

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Oh it was so cool we divided into families and pulled these handcarts across the desert for three days.  It was really hard.  Now I know what the pioneers went through.

 

I don't know how many times I have heard that.

 

From an online blurb.

"Experience a handcart trek much like the one pioneers endured over 150 years ago. Visit the Mormon Handcart Visitors' Center at Martin's Cove and view exhibits recording the tragic circumstances of two handcart companies. Leaving late in the summer, they experienced bad weather, exposure, and death (for many) in order to unite with the main body of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in the Salt Lake Valley."

 
And this
 

Pricing of $25.00 per person; includes a three day trek, two camp sites, authentic handcarts, potties and water.

Three day treks start on Mondays or Thursdays

 

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I've only been on one as well, and it certainly was not fun.

 

To bad.  I'm guessing that's most of what you have against them then?  

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To bad.  I'm guessing that's most of what you have against them then?  

 

Actually the opposite.  The thing of largest redeemable value of the trek was that you were getting a buch of kids, who are accustomed to their cushy lives, out doing something that is hard and uncomfortable.

 

No, what I have against them goes along with what Mr. Gui has expressed.

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The irony is that when a wagon train really was attacked by an armed mob, the Mormons were the perpetrators (MMM). For those of you who don't see a problem with this type of activity, what would you think if a group of Arkansanians had an annual activity where their youth reenact being attacked by Mormons in Mountain Meadows?

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The irony is that when a wagon train really was attacked by an armed mob, the Mormons were the perpetrators (MMM). For those of you who don't see a problem with this type of activity, what would you think if a group of Arkansanians had an annual activity where their youth reenact being attacked by Mormons in Mountain Meadows?

I think it would be kind of funny.

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Nehor, leave personal attacks out of your responses.

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Nehor, leave personal attacks out of your responses.

What if that means there would be nothing left in said response?

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Just when I thought I'd seen it all, this is apparently a thing:

 

http://bycommonconsent.com/2015/06/23/treks-mobs-and-spiritual-escalation/

 

 

Sometimes I think I understand the range of stupidity found in the Church, and then something like this comes along and I realize there are greater idiots in the Church than even I could have imagined (start at 12:20 in the video):

 

 

I find it a powerful teaching tool, rather than "stupid".

 

It's no different than Civil War enactments, soldiers in training having to crawl through mud with live fire overhead, plays which show similar powerful experiences and emotion, movies which do the same, hikes while having to conserve water and food, scout or otherwise survival training, etc.

 

That you think this sort of thing is "stupid" is telling.

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The irony is that when a wagon train really was attacked by an armed mob, the Mormons were the perpetrators (MMM). For those of you who don't see a problem with this type of activity, what would you think if a group of Arkansanians had an annual activity where their youth reenact being attacked by Mormons in Mountain Meadows?

 

1. Let's get real.  99% of the bigotry that occured with early mormons were by anti-mormons, not mormons, thus stop trying to ignore the reality of your own kind of history and put it on Mormons.

 

2. There were all kinds of anti-mormon actions of history toward the saints, including when they were gathered, traveling, etc.  Thus, your statement about MMM being the "only" wagon train related event of hate is false.

 

3. Let's get more real.  Those of MM were innocent in that they didn't deserve to die, but nothing happens in a "box".  They were clearly anti-mormons who said and did things to the saints that they shouldn't have, which made the local saints angry and want to inflict "justice/revenge".  So, let's not pretend that those of MM were "innocent" of sin.  They clearly wouldn't have been to have made the locals angry enough to want to kill them.  Not of course saying that local leaders also didn't have fault, and also did wrong inflaming the situation also, but claiming "innocence" of those in MM is not true either.  Like I said, nothing happens in a box.  The local saints didn't just decide to kill people for the fun of it.  They were clearly taunting the local mormons, and claiming things against mormons, whether they were responsible, involved or not.

 

4. If those "Arkansanians" were being accurate, spoting their bigot etc. like those of MM were toward mormons, and enacting the mormons coming to kill them, then all the power to them.

But, like was said, it wouldn't make sense, because they were just a group of people traveling together, they were not "connected" as a group, ideology, religion, etc. so it would be funny stupid.

In contrast, the Mormon re-enactment actually happened many times over to the saints entirely because of their beliefs, NOT because they were doing or saying wrong against others.  Yes, they sometimes fought back, and sometimes did even worse, but you are not even close to clean to compare the two from your ideological heritage with our ideological and direct heritage.

Edited by williamsmith

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I find it a powerful teaching tool, rather than "stupid".

 

 

Ve haf veys of making you learn........

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1. Let's get real.  99% of the bigotry that occured with early mormons were by anti-mormons, not mormons, thus stop trying to ignore the reality of your own kind of history and put it on Mormons.

 

CFR please

 

2. There were all kinds of anti-mormon actions of history toward the saints, including when they were gathered, traveling, etc.  Thus, your statement about MMM being the "only" wagon train related event of hate is false.

 

3. Let's get more real.  Those of MM were innocent in that they didn't deserve to die, but nothing happens in a "box".  They were clearly anti-mormons who said and did things to the saints that they shouldn't have, which made the local saints angry and want to inflict "justice/revenge".  CFR please

 

So, let's not pretend that those of MM were "innocent" of sin.  They clearly wouldn't have been to have made the locals angry enough to want to kill them.  Not of course saying that local leaders also didn't have fault, and also did wrong inflaming the situation also, but claiming "innocence" of those in MM is not true either.  Like I said, nothing happens in a box.  The local saints didn't just decide to kill people for the fun of it.  They were clearly taunting the local mormons, and claiming things against mormons, whether they were responsible, involved or not.

 

4. If those "Arkansanians" were being accurate, spoting their bigot etc. like those of MM were toward mormons, and enacting the mormons coming to kill them, then all the power to them.

But, like was said, it wouldn't make sense, because they were just a group of people traveling together, they were not "connected" as a group, ideology, religion, etc. so it would be funny stupid.

In contrast, the Mormon re-enactment actually happened many times over to the saints entirely because of their beliefs, NOT because they were doing or saying wrong against others.  Yes, they sometimes fought back, and sometimes did even worse, but you are not even close to clean to compare the two from your ideological heritage with our ideological and direct heritage.

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I find it a powerful teaching tool, rather than "stupid".

 

It's no different than Civil War enactments, soldiers in training having to crawl through mud with live fire overhead, plays which show similar powerful experiences and emotion, movies which do the same, hikes while having to conserve water and food, scout or otherwise survival training, etc.

 

That you think this sort of thing is "stupid" is telling.

 

Several years ago, the young men's leaders in our ward pulled a prank on the Teachers and Priests (including my son).  Instead of going to the local haunted house for their activity before Halloween, they suggested they go to an abandoned house on the outskirts of town.  But when they got there, it wasn't abandoned.  The inhabitants of the house were apparently cooking meth or otherwise up to no good, and they were not happy to have unannounced visitors.  They closed the gate behind the leaders' cars, and started firing guns into the air.  They then took the boys' phones and smashed one of them so they couldn't call for help.  Several of the boys were so scared they almost fainted.  Then the armed "drug dealers"  had a leader kneel down on the ground, and they held up their guns as if they were ready to murder him, and my son said "he closed his eyes because he didn't want to see his leader die."  And some of the boys thought they would be next.

 

Eventually, the leaders "talked their way out of it", and they drove to a nearby pizza place.  Before the boys could call the police (or their parents) from their leader's phones, the leaders produced a bag with the boys' phones (the smashed one had been a dummy phone), and told the boys it was a prank.  They also told the boys they might not want to tell their parents about it.

 

Maybe the "mob" attacks during pioneer treks are different.   Maybe the prank described above was a valuable teaching tool (it certainly almost taught my wife right out of the Church, and I was in a position some of you might find ironic where I was convincing her to go to Church each week for quite a while).  But the "mob attacks" as described and shown in the video aren't different enough from what I can see, and you'll never convince me that the benefits outweigh the risks (or that you have any idea of what the risks even are).  

 

People are making a lot of assumptions about what youth do or don't think in such situations, especially in the middle of the night.

Edited by cinepro

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Several years ago, the young men's leaders in our ward pulled a prank on the Teachers and Priests (including my son)....People are making a lot of assumptions about what youth do or don't think in such situations, especially in the middle of the night.

 

The danger of unexpected trauma was precisely one of the two reasons given as to why we would not be allowed to include any mob attacks during our Trek.

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The danger of unexpected trauma was precisely one of the two reasons given as to why we would not be allowed to include any mob attacks during our Trek.

 

I would also want to know why the leaders don't have people dress up like Indians and attack the youth-pioneers?  Just have a bunch of leaders paint their faces, put on buckskins and "whoop-whoop" as they dance around and talk about taking scalps and drinking firewater.

 

It's certainly much more "historical" as far as pioneer dangers were concerned.  But is there some part of our conscience that tells us that is going a little too far, but that allows us to be okay with leaders dressing up like mobsters (from Wyoming?) and yelling "kill tha' Marmons!" and shooting guns into the air?

 

I think that's what Stephen R. Covey would call "having a broken moral compass." 

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Several years ago, the young men's leaders in our ward pulled a prank on the Teachers and Priests (including my son). Instead of going to the local haunted house for their activity before Halloween, they suggested they go to an abandoned house on the outskirts of town. But when they got there, it wasn't abandoned. The inhabitants of the house were apparently cooking meth or otherwise up to no good, and they were not happy to have unannounced visitors. They closed the gate behind the leaders' cars, and started firing guns into the air. They then took the boys' phones and smashed one of them so they couldn't call for help. Several of the boys were so scared they almost fainted. Then the armed "drug dealers" had a leader kneel down on the ground, and they held up their guns as if they were ready to murder him, and my son said "he closed his eyes because he didn't want to see his leader die." And some of the boys thought they would be next.

Eventually, the leaders "talked their way out of it", and they drove to a nearby pizza place. Before the boys could call the police (or their parents) from their leader's phones, the leaders produced a bag with the boys' phones (the smashed one had been a dummy phone), and told the boys it was a prank. They also told the boys they might not want to tell their parents about it.

:lol:

Epic prank.

Edit: Sorry if response was not overdone enough. The Young Men leaders were deranged in this case and if they fired live ammo criminally negligent on top of that. My first thought was to wonder what the Young Men did to tick off their leaders that much......not that anything short of violent assault would justify said prank.

Edited by The Nehor

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1. Let's get real.  99% of the bigotry that occured with early mormons were by anti-mormons, not mormons, thus stop trying to ignore the reality of your own kind of history and put it on Mormons.

 

2. There were all kinds of anti-mormon actions of history toward the saints, including when they were gathered, traveling, etc.  Thus, your statement about MMM being the "only" wagon train related event of hate is false.

 

3. Let's get more real.  Those of MM were innocent in that they didn't deserve to die, but nothing happens in a "box".  They were clearly anti-mormons who said and did things to the saints that they shouldn't have, which made the local saints angry and want to inflict "justice/revenge".  So, let's not pretend that those of MM were "innocent" of sin.  They clearly wouldn't have been to have made the locals angry enough to want to kill them.  Not of course saying that local leaders also didn't have fault, and also did wrong inflaming the situation also, but claiming "innocence" of those in MM is not true either.  Like I said, nothing happens in a box.  The local saints didn't just decide to kill people for the fun of it.  They were clearly taunting the local mormons, and claiming things against mormons, whether they were responsible, involved or not.

 

4. If those "Arkansanians" were being accurate, spoting their bigot etc. like those of MM were toward mormons, and enacting the mormons coming to kill them, then all the power to them.

But, like was said, it wouldn't make sense, because they were just a group of people traveling together, they were not "connected" as a group, ideology, religion, etc. so it would be funny stupid.

In contrast, the Mormon re-enactment actually happened many times over to the saints entirely because of their beliefs, NOT because they were doing or saying wrong against others.  Yes, they sometimes fought back, and sometimes did even worse, but you are not even close to clean to compare the two from your ideological heritage with our ideological and direct heritage.

 

Sorry, but you lost the argument the moment you said "Let's get real."  (Also when you used the word "accurate.")

 

As has been pointed out several times in this discussion, Youth Pioneer Treks are not about "getting real".  They're about re-enactment. They're about "teaching."  They're about creating historical tableaus that evoke the semblance of some undefined point in history.

 

As for your characterization of the Fancher Party and the events at Mountain Meadows, I would recommend reviewing this article (if you can't be bothered to read Turley's entire book).  

 

https://www.lds.org/ensign/2007/09/the-mountain-meadows-massacre?lang=eng

 

This is how the article describes what you characterize as "They were clearly anti-mormons who said and did things to the saints that they shouldn't have, which made the local saints angry and want to inflict "justice/revenge":

 

 

 

 Weeks of frustration boiled over, and in the rising tension one emigrant man reportedly claimed he had a gun that killed Joseph Smith. Others threatened to join the incoming federal troops against the Saints. Alexander Fancher, captain of the emigrant train, rebuked these men on the spot.

You seem to be intentionally exaggerating what the Fancher Party did and said. As shown in the article above, the Church has adopted a position of strict accuracy when it comes to recounting the events at Mountain Meadows, and you probably should as well.

Edited by cinepro

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Several years ago, the young men's leaders in our ward pulled a prank on the Teachers and Priests (including my son)....

I am horrified at the stupidity of some people put in charge of others, especially youth and children.

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I would also want to know why the leaders don't have people dress up like Indians and attack the youth-pioneers?  Just have a bunch of leaders paint their faces, put on buckskins and "whoop-whoop" as they dance around and talk about taking scalps and drinking firewater.

 

One of the videos linked in the original By Common Consent post did have leaders dressed up as Indians. They whooped and yelped and generally harassed the kids although they supposedly just wanted to trade with them. 

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What if that means there would be nothing left in said response?

 

Silence is Golden.

 

Duct Tape is silver and achieves the same result.

 

=@

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