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enummaelish

The Image of God

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In the Old Testament do you know of any verses that would describe God having a "physcial correspondence".

Yes. Genesis 1:26-27 :P

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The Traveler writes,

If you believe the text written in Hebrew - the only possible meaning is physical. That is a physical model of a physical thing. It says that man is a physical model of a physical G-d. But if you do not believe that G-d spoke the truth to Moses and would rather rely on interpertations of man then you can make this to mean anything you want.

Did Moses see God as a physical image of a man with his natural eyes?

You place way too much stock in translations. The statement in Genesis in the Hebrew means physical. But you do not have to believe that the Hebrew is better than our English translations.

Can "glory" manifest as physcial. Moses saw the back parts of the glory of God.

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enummaelish writes,

>In the Old Testament do you know of any verses that would describe God having a "physcial correspondence".

Yes. Genesis 1:26-27

Can glory be described as "physcial correspondence"?

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Can "glory" manifest as physcial. Moses saw the backside of the glory of God.

Actually. Yes. The Hebrew word glory or

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enummaelish writes,

Actually. Yes. The Hebrew word glory or

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Johnny, you didn't address the charge. Is the Trinitarian God Pantheistic or not? If not, then explain why it isn't.

The Holy Ghost can "influence" people everywhere, true. But we can influence others through broadcasting news without the news reporters being physically present in your living room. If we can manage this on our own, I hardly see why God is incapable of doing so unless he "physically" sends himself there. Why impose such limitations on God? Are we smarter or better than God? I don't think so.

To say God's "being" is constantly "everywhere", is nothing short of pantheism.

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To say God's "being" is constantly "everywhere", is nothing short of pantheism.

Oh, I do love Keven Graham!!! :P

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Kevin W. Graham  writes,

Is the Trinitarian God Pantheistic or not?

How are you defining or using "Pantheistic"?

The Holy Ghost can "influence" people everywhere, true. But we can influence others through broadcasting news without the news reporters being physically present in your living room. If we can manage this on our own, I hardly see why God is incapable of doing so unless he "physically" sends himself there. Why impose such limitations on God? Are we smarter or better than God? I don't think so.

So you would you agree that the Lord is at hand and can fill heaven and earth (Jer 23:23,24) and that God is above all, and through all, and in you all (Eph 4:6)?

To say God's "being" is constantly "everywhere", is nothing short of pantheism.

Again I ask for your interpretation of Jer 23:23,24 and Eph 4:6 ...

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To say God's "being" is constantly "everywhere", is nothing short of pantheism.

Wow! It must be nice to live in never never land. Maybe I'll come visit you there sometime when I need a break from reality.

Pantheism literally means "God is All" and "All is God". It is the view that everything is of an all-encompassing immanent God; or that the universe, or nature, and God are equivalent. More detailed definitions tend to emphasize the idea that natural law, existence and/or the universe (the sum total of all that is was and shall be) is represented or personified in the theological principle of 'God'.

Kevin, you are taking this too far and now are simply arguementative. You know darn well that the trinitarian view of God does not mean that the tree is God or my mailbox is God.

God is the creator of all things.

Here is a Psalm that describes God's omnipresence:

Psalm 139:7-12

Where can I hide from your spirit? From your presence, where can I flee? If I ascend to the heavens, you are there; if I lie down in Sheol, you are there too. If I fly with the wings of dawn and alight beyond the sea, Even there your hand will guide me, your right hand hold me fast.

Or...

Jer 23:23

Am I a God near at hand only, says the LORD, and not a God far off? Can a man hide in secret without my seeing him? says the LORD. Do I not fill both heaven and earth? says the LORD.

Peace be with you

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== Kevin, you are taking this too far and now are simply arguementative.

Argumentative? You're on a debate forum lad, get used to it. If there were no arguments to be found here, I'd be worried.

== You know darn well that the trinitarian view of God does not mean that the tree is God or my mailbox is God.

You're right. I know it. Pretty darn well too. But I question Johnny's application of these verses as they pertain to God's being. Following his logic one must assume God is in the tree and He is in your hair. After all, there is no qualification where "everywhere" is concerned.

== God is the creator of all things.

You're darn right about that.

== Here is a Psalm that describes God's omnipresence:

Now you're just being too darn out of context in your interpretation of scripture.

Both of these verses indicate that a man cannot hide from God. Latter-day Saints do not disagree with that assessment. God will see us no matter where we go. Take a trip to Cairo, and God will see you. Take a hyperdriven voyage to another galaxy, and God will see you. It seems pretty straightforward. No disagreement.

What these verses do not indicate, is how God will see us wherever we go. You have taken it upon yourself to explain how, and you do so by offering a pantheistic explanation. The issue of God's being is certainly an issue for the omnipresence question, but these verses do not refer to God's physical location at all. To insist that they do is to adopt a pantheistic notion supported nowhere in scripture. In fact, as you noted, it contradicts Trinitarian theology. God is not literally "everywhere."

Again mankind has been able to devise surveillance systems to monitor activity on the other side of the earth. If someone managed to escape to Mars, well, we even have cameras recording activity there as well. Does this mean the US government has literal omnipresence? Of course not.

But this is how the selected scriptures are read by those who want to twist the Bible so it appears as though it refutes the LDS doctrine of God's presence.

It simply won't work. You have to rely on a privatized interpretation that flies in the face of a logical exegesis. Mormons have been, and continue to be, unimpressed by this kind of bloviating.

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Exodus 15

3 The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name.

Hmmm. God is a fighting man. :P

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God is actually a shaven yak. Hey, is that any less believable than God as an omnipotent hairless ape?

Hmmm. A yak maybe, but not a shaven yak. Any idiot knows that God doesn't shave.

--KY

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Paul O wrote:
Right. If you have seen the Son you have seen the Father. Jesus wanted us to know that he was in like fashion as his Father and reminded his people that the God of Israel was a Man who had a divine Son.

I love Christianity. It is so plain.

Jesus is saying that He and the Father are one. You know the whole trinity thing.

As for God being a man....Jesus states in John 4:24 that God is Spirit

He further states in Luke 24:39 that a Spirit does not have flesh and bones.

Yes Christianity is so plain

I profess that the Holy Ghost is spirit and a member of the Godhead. That fulfills John 4:23.

A spirit can have a body of flesh and bones! Jesus was simply saying that he wasn

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enummaelish writes,

There is no question that the

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== Kevin, you are taking this too far and now are simply arguementative.

Argumentative? You're on a debate forum lad, get used to it. If there were no arguments to be found here, I'd be worried.

== You know darn well that the trinitarian view of God does not mean that the tree is God or my mailbox is God.

You're right. I know it. Pretty darn well too. But I question Johnny's application of these verses as they pertain to God's being. Following his logic one must assume God is in the tree and He is in your hair. After all, there is no qualification where "everywhere" is concerned.

== God is the creator of all things.

You're darn right about that.

== Here is a Psalm that describes God's omnipresence:

Now you're just being too darn out of context in your interpretation of scripture.

Alright then Kevin, you interpret for the rest of us what it means when God asks the questions:

Can a man hide in secret without my seeing him? says the LORD.

The answer is no. You and I both believe that he can see us anywhere and at any time.

Do I not fill both heaven and earth? says the LORD.

Now what does God mean to say here? Interpret for us Mr. Kevin.

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If it is physcial how can he be a God at hand that fills heaven and earth (Jer 23:23,24) and a God that transcends (Eph 4:6)?

Can you explain quickening of the body in scientific terms? Maybe God is everywhere by traveling really, really fast. :P <--note the smiley provided for any humor impaired readers

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== The answer is no. You and I both believe that he can see us anywhere and at any time.

Right. Since when has agreeing with someone been so excrutiating?

== Now what does God mean to say here? Interpret for us Mr. Kevin.

You just did. God being "everywhere" is, according to the context, in reference to his ability to see us. It is possible that God can see something without physically being there. Likewise, I can say "I was there" when the buildings fell on 9-11, even though technology (live broadcasting) is what I am referring to, not my physical presence.

In what sense can God's being be considered "transcendent," if He literally exists everywhere, including hell?

This argument is oxymoronic.

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I profess that the Holy Ghost is spirit and a member of the Godhead. That fulfills John 4:23.

This does not fulfill John 4:23, it states plainly: God is a Spirit. It says nothing about the Holy Ghost or the Godhead

A spirit can have a body of flesh and bones! Jesus was simply saying that he wasn

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== This does not fulfill John 4:23, it states plainly: God is a Spirit. It says nothing about the Holy Ghost or the Godhead

This is the lamest argument that Evangelicals need to abandon. In fact, many of them have.

http://kevingraham.net/5spirit.htm

== In Luke, the disciples are afraid because they think they are looking at a ghost of Christ, He says, why are you afraid, a ghost (spirit) does not have flesh and bones as I have

Do you not also have a spirit? Are you not also a body of flesh and bones? Obviously you're misreading the text. Christ's point was simple and it only goes to further the LDS argument. For we know that Christ was a body of flesh and bones (not blood) in the resurrection. He was not only a spirit but also a body. Evangelicals who an attempt to connect two totally different scriptures, from two totally different books, from two totally different events, as if they are complimenting and explaining one another, is a typical butchering of the text that shouldn't merit anyone's attention. It is nothing short of manufacturing a theology ex nihilo, and then for support, using decontexualized verses as smoke and mirrors.

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Kevin W. Graham  writes,

You just did. God being "everywhere" is, according to the context, in reference to his ability to see us. It is possible that God can see something without physically being there. Likewise, I can say "I was there" when the buildings fell on 9-11, even though technology (live broadcasting) is what I am referring to, not my physical presence.

Jeremiah 23:23,24 is talking about presence ... it is not talking about "his ability to see us". If you think Jer 23:23,24 is talking about seeing could you explain it to us.

Jeremiah 23

23 Am I a God at hand, saith the LORD, and not a God afar off?

24 Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the LORD. Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the LORD.

In what sense can God's being be considered "transcendent," if He literally exists everywhere, including hell?

Do you consider "above all" transcendent? If not could you explain what is mean by "above all".

Ephesians 4

6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

This is the lamest argument that Evangelicals need to abandon. In fact, many of them have.

You would agree that the Holy Ghost is spirit ... and would you agree that the Holy Ghost is God ... would you then agree that that God is spirit just like John 4:24 says. If not could you explain your reasoning.

If not, then explain why it isn't.

I am still waiting for you to answer my questions above or shall I assume that you agree that the Lord is at hand and can fill heaven and earth (Jer 23:23,24) and that God is above all, and through all, and in you all (Eph 4:6)?

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1dc  writes,

Can you explain quickening of the body in scientific terms?

Jesus explains "quickening of the body" in John 3:6:

John 3

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Maybe God is everywhere by traveling really, really fast.

Or maybe God is God ...

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Zakuska  writes,

3 The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name.

Hmmm. God is a fighting man.

We also know that God is not man ... he is God (Hosea 11:9)

Hosea 11

9 I will not execute the fierceness of mine anger, I will not return to destroy Ephraim: for I am God, and not man; the Holy One in the midst of thee: and I will not enter into the city.

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Paul Osborne  writes,

Yep. Man will take on the image of God in the resurrection. As Adam was made in the image of God when given his body so also will mankind be made in the image of God in the resurrection having a glorified body.

You have it backwards ... Adam was made in the image of God when he was given his spiritual soul .... in the resurrection his body changes into a glorified body.

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I profess that the Holy Ghost is spirit and a member of the Godhead. That fulfills John 4:23.

This does not fulfill John 4:23, it states plainly: God is a Spirit. It says nothing about the Holy Ghost or the Godhead

A spirit can have a body of flesh and bones! Jesus was simply saying that he wasn

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