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Ssm And Byu Tax Exempt

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lvjd66,

If the Establishment Clause creates an absolut, then why is there a Lemon Test?

If a law passes the Lemon Test, then the religion must follow it, correct?

As for Bob Jones, you want us to accept that you are right and 8 of 9 supreme court justices were wrong. Will you provide more compelling evidence that tax exempt status is a religious absolute?

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Quite frankly, I am kinda surprised you even CFR'd my claim that a law has to comply with the Constitution. I thought that would be common sense. And make no mistake the Lemon Test is currently THE test for the Establishment Clause.

This does not meet the CFR.

You have not shown that Lemon IS THE test for Establishment Clause claims.

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lvjd66,

If the Establishment Clause creates an absolut, then why is there a Lemon Test?

If a law passes the Lemon Test, then the religion must follow it, correct?

As for Bob Jones, you want us to accept that are are right and 8 of 9 supreme court justices were wrong. Will you provide more compelling evidence that tax exempt status is a religious absolute?

 

I am having a hard time envisioning a tax impossed on religion that would pass the Lemon Test.

 

And you can accept whatever you want. Just remember that it is perfectly okay to disagree with the Supreme Court. I imagine you disagreed with the Hobby Lobby case. Why should I believe you over Justice Alito and the other judges. Heck, I think we all disagree with Plessy v. Fergusen. So disagreeing with the Court is nothing new. 

 

But the fact remains the Court brushed aside the Establishment Clause in Bob Jones, with hardly any explanation. That is the real head scratcher. 

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Is Lemon is the only test applied to establishment clause cases?

For a list of case where the Court refused Lemon see the dissenting opinion in Sante Independant School Dist v Doe.

 

No. There are other tests. But Lemon is the gold standard. It is THE test.

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No. There are other tests. But Lemon is the gold standard. It is THE test.

 

It is a test. The Supreme Court has refused to use it several times.

 

But nonetheless, you have not demonstrated that tax exempt status is an absolute right for a religious organization; and that the Supreme Court has upheld revoking tax exempt status, shows that tax exempt status is not an absolute right.

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Under our system of government that is always possible. However I don't believe a compelling legal argument can be made that could force a religion/church minister to perform a SSM ceremony against their wishes.

 

True, but nor complete; Businesses with government contracts are prohibited from discrimination against lgbt or lgbt couples; gender identity or sexual orientation. Federal legislation against such discrimination right now is being held up for partisan political gain in Congress.

 

Bob Jones University was held to not meet the strict scrutiny provision of the law thus not eligible tax exemption.

SEE http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Jones_University_v._United_States

 

I do not believe there is any legal basis for requiring Churches to perform ssm.  One of my friends who was not Catholic was required by the Priest to do something concerning Catholicism, as a requisite for the Catholic Priest to allow the marriage in a Catholic Cathedral.  I do not believe the Government has the power or authority to require clergy to perform marriages.  

 

Perhaps it is best for all Clergy to get out of the legal marriage business; and simply perform a "religious" ceremony binding the couple in that name of God.  So civil marriage first, then religious ceremony.  

 

However, I do think wise for Churches to cut as many ties with the government as possible. 

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I do not believe there is any legal basis for requiring Churches to perform ssm. 

 

 

And yet if churches tax exempt status' were revoked very onorus tax burdens could be devised ti encourage compliance.

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And yet if churches tax exempt status' were revoked very onorus tax burdens could be devised ti encourage compliance.

 

The Church has some really smart tax lawyers. I think they could come up with some good ways to get around it. IE; Become like GE pay no taxes and get money from government.

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The Church has some really smart tax lawyers. I think they could come up with some good ways to get around it. IE; Become like GE pay no taxes and get money from government.

 

A real well thought out non-answer.

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I do not believe there is any legal basis for requiring Churches to perform ssm.  One of my friends who was not Catholic was required by the Priest to do something concerning Catholicism, as a requisite for the Catholic Priest to allow the marriage in a Catholic Cathedral.  I do not believe the Government has the power or authority to require clergy to perform marriages.  

 

Perhaps it is best for all Clergy to get out of the legal marriage business; and simply perform a "religious" ceremony binding the couple in that name of God.  So civil marriage first, then religious ceremony.  

 

However, I do think wise for Churches to cut as many ties with the government as possible. 

 

I'd like to get the government out of the marriage business altogether. Make them all legally enforceable civil contracts, and let churches, temples, mosques, shrines, what have you, do any marriage ceremony they want.

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I do not believe there is any legal basis for requiring Churches to perform ssm.  One of my friends who was not Catholic was required by the Priest to do something concerning Catholicism, as a

requisite for the Catholic Priest to allow the marriage in a Catholic Cathedral.  I do not believe the Government has the power or authority to require clergy to perform marriages.  

 

Perhaps it is best for all Clergy to get out of the legal marriage business; and simply perform a "religious" ceremony binding the couple in that name of God.  So civil marriage first, then religious ceremony.  

 

However, I do think wise for Churches to cut as many ties with the government as possible. 

 

Just read an article about Coeur d'Alene, Idaho's law that requires pastors to perform SSM or face jail time and fines.

 

That's good.

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Just read an article about Coeur d'Alene, Idaho's law that requires pastors to perform SSM or face jail time and fines.

 

That's good.

 

Apparently the city backed off their position, however, so that is really good.

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A real well thought out non-answer.

 

If the people of the US through their representatives wants to tax churches, they can. True the US would have to change numerous laws including our founding documents , and I would personally oppose such changes. But change them we could. Taxing them wouldn't be the end of the world. I pay taxes. I just use every legal advantage I can to minimize them. The churches would do the same. IE; Every time we build a chapel or Temple that is a capital investment/expenditure and is deductible from taxes. There are literally thousands of ways to lower if not eliminate taxes paid.

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Case in point.

 

You should try to start a religion and see how you can operate if your taxed. I wager that your ability to operate your church would dwindle to the point that it disappears.

 

I doubt it. Tax policy on businesses is much more lenient than it is on individuals. Businesses may deduct all their operating expenses, while I, as an indivudual, may not.

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You are thinking about this totally backwards.

 

Tax exempt does not mean that somehow the Government is just being generous to religion by not making it pay taxes. It means that the government does not have the right to tax religion under the First Amendment.

 

You haven't established that. Laws that exempt religions live in the tax code, not the constitution.

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The Bob Jones case violates the Constitution.

 

In your opinion, maybe. Not in the opinion of the supreme court, obviously, and theirs is the only one that really matters in any practical way

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I see, because this does not affect you directly you are unable to see the issues with it. IOW you think you know what you are talking about.

 

Tax exemption seems like a priveledge to me. I don't happen to have the priveledge, and I'm still as free as the next person.

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You haven't established that. Laws that exempt religions live in the tax code, not the constitution.

 

Actually it is in the First Amendment of the US Constitution.

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I see, because this does not affect you directly you are unable to see the issues with it. IOW you think you know what you are talking about.

 

Tax exemption seems like a priveledge to me. I don't happen to have the priveledge, and I'm still as free as the next person.

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duplicate

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Actually it is in the First Amendment of the US Constitution.

 

There is nothing in the first amdendment about taxes.

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