Jump to content
Seriously No Politics ×

To Judge Vs. To Condemn


Recommended Posts

I have always had a problem with the way people interpret the phrase "Judge not, lest ye be judged." Surely this scripture does not mean we are not supposed to make judgments. In fact, in other places in the scriptures we are required to chose or judge.

 

It doesn't mean that we shouldn't make judgements.  We are required to judge all the time.  It means we should be merciful and not condemn people.

 

IMO you are exactly right in your analysis.

Link to comment

I thought the JST had rendered Christ's injunction as, Judge not unrighteously, but judge righteous judgment. (JST Matt. 7:1-2). :)  See also here, from Elder Dallin H. Oaks: https://www.lds.org/ensign/1999/08/judge-not-and-judging?lang=eng. And of course, there are other scriptures consistent with that idea.  Christ commanded His Apostles (and I think this idea is equally applicable to members of His Church in general) to be "wise as serpents, and harmless as doves" (See Matthew 10:16).

Link to comment

It has become fashionable for the people of the world to quote Christ's warning to "judge not that ye be not judged" in isolation and out of the context of the succeeding verses as a "stand alone" truism. People love to quote these words, even though in many instances they're not even believers, because it's their way of justifying lifestyles and deeds of unrighteousness. You know how it goes: "Who are you to tell me premarital sex is wrong? Jesus said it's wrong to make judgements about others. So why are you as a believer in Jesus going against his words?" This is an example of the kind of mischief that comes along as a consequence of conveniently quoting scripture out of context without taking into consideration the surrounding verses that usually clarify the misused verse that's been quoted out of context, Here are the clarifying verses that immediately follow the Lord's words to judge not:

2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?

5 Thou hypocrite, FIRST CAST OUT THE BEAM OUT OF THINE OWN EYE; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brothers eye. Matthew 7

So it's clear: Before one can point out and attempt to help correct the faults in others, he must first be sure he has come unto Christ, obtained forgiveness, and had his own heart and motivations purified to the point where he can see and judge situations with true spiritual clarity by living a life in true accord with the Spirit of God. Rather than being warning to not discern the faults and sinful behaviors in others, Jesus' admonition is that if one desires to minister to sinners so as to help them find forgiveness and healing, he must first come unto the Lord and find that same healing for himself.

Edited by Bobbieaware
Link to comment

I have always had a problem with the way people interpret the phrase "Judge not, lest ye be judged." Surely this scripture does not mean we are not supposed to make judgments. In fact, in other places in the scriptures we are required to chose or judge. "Choose ye this day whom ye will serve." Nephi had to leave his brothers in 2nd Nephi (a very harsh judgment). In fact, the scriptures are filled with prophets who made judgments about the spiritual state of various people (See Alma 5).

 

What I think the Savior was saying, and the only context in which it makes sense, is that we are not to condemn people (or damn them). Such a power is reserved for Him. Condemning can happen when we tell someone they are going to hell. More commonly, I think it happens when are actions ostracize someone from the Kingdom because we perceive their actions to be wrong (this statement should not be interpreted to mean that I believe excommunication is wrong. I am very much in favor of it when it is necessary).

 

For example, I am required to make judgments about people every day. I have made a judgment about Kate Kelly, John Dehlin, Denver Snuffer and others. It is my judgment that they have been manipulated by the devil and have fallen into their hands. But I do not condemn them. I think to one extent or another, the same thing could be said about all of us. And I also believe the Lord's ability to forgive is staggering. Additionally, the Lord can take into consideration factors that I simply cannot. How would a modern day porn star's life be different if she had my parents as a child? How would mine be different if I had hers?

 

And so I am unapologetic in saying I have passed judgments on people. It is my judgment that John Dehlin is a wolf in sheep's clothing and he has been dishonest for a lot of years about his intentions. I have made judgments about others (including many on this board). But it is not my place to condemn them by word, thought or deed.

 

There are some behaviors that absolutely must be condemned.  The  "judge not that ye be not judged" is followed by "For with what judgement ye judge so shall ye be judged".  To me this is admonition to make sure we do not judge unfairly.

Link to comment

I have always had a problem with the way people interpret the phrase "Judge not, lest ye be judged." Surely this scripture does not mean we are not supposed to make judgments. In fact, in other places in the scriptures we are required to chose or judge. "Choose ye this day whom ye will serve." Nephi had to leave his brothers in 2nd Nephi (a very harsh judgment). In fact, the scriptures are filled with prophets who made judgments about the spiritual state of various people (See Alma 5).

 

What I think the Savior was saying, and the only context in which it makes sense, is that we are not to condemn people (or damn them). Such a power is reserved for Him. Condemning can happen when we tell someone they are going to hell. More commonly, I think it happens when are actions ostracize someone from the Kingdom because we perceive their actions to be wrong (this statement should not be interpreted to mean that I believe excommunication is wrong. I am very much in favor of it when it is necessary).

 

For example, I am required to make judgments about people every day. I have made a judgment about Kate Kelly, John Dehlin, Denver Snuffer and others. It is my judgment that they have been manipulated by the devil and have fallen into their hands. But I do not condemn them. I think to one extent or another, the same thing could be said about all of us. And I also believe the Lord's ability to forgive is staggering. Additionally, the Lord can take into consideration factors that I simply cannot. How would a modern day porn star's life be different if she had my parents as a child? How would mine be different if I had hers?

 

 

 

And so I am unapologetic in saying I have passed judgments on people. It is my judgment that John Dehlin is a wolf in sheep's clothing and he has been dishonest for a lot of years about his intentions. I have made judgments about others (including many on this board). But it is not my place to condemn them by word, thought or deed.

 

Seems clear that Jesus says they way we judge others is how we will be judged.  He also says we need to have mercy to obtain mercy.  I guess it can be a bit nuanced.  Yes we have to judge who we hang out with and whether we can trust someone.   Maybe it does have to do with condemning.  However, IMO to say someone like Kate Kelly, John Dehlin  and Denver Snuffer are manipulated by the devil because they may look at things and make an honest decision that does not agree with yours and mine...well that seems to step into the judge not category.    Calling someone a wolf in sheep's clothing or of the devil, which you strongly imply above seems to step into condemning.  I would feel pretty condemned is someone said that to me.

 

I do like your comment about the Lord taken into account and knowing things you can't.   I suggest sticking to that paradigm.

Link to comment

There are some behaviors that absolutely must be condemned.  The  "judge not that ye be not judged" is followed by "For with what judgement ye judge so shall ye be judged".  To me this is admonition to make sure we do not judge unfairly.

 

It is also an admonition to judge mercifully. In other words if you condemns someone you will be judged by the same standard.

Link to comment

Both 3 Nephi 14:15 and Matthew 7:16 agree that making a judgment concerning a wolf in sheep's clothing is how you protect the sheep of the flock.

 

How can we beware without making a judgment about someone who fits the description? A condemnation, to me at least, implies that you've decided their fate for them and precluded their ability to change and repent. A judgment, in the eternal sense, is to me more like the Final Judgment, and that is reserved for the Son.

 

15 Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

 

The next two verses hit it home:

 

 16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

 17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but acorrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

 

Perhaps what Ivjd66 means is that John Dehlin's fruits are very suspect and match the description of someone playing at being a sheep, but in secret bears the fruit of apostasy which spreads like a disease to anyone in can infect. 

Is it possible to make a judgment for the sake of spiritual safety and not issue a condemnation of the person themselves? I certainly think so, but it can be a fine line. I don't think people like having their choices judged any more than being judged themselves, yet we must protect ourselves and those in our care.

Just my thoughts.

Link to comment

Seems clear that Jesus says they way we judge others is how we will be judged.  He also says we need to have mercy to obtain mercy.  I guess it can be a bit nuanced.  Yes we have to judge who we hang out with and whether we can trust someone.   Maybe it does have to do with condemning.  However, IMO to say someone like Kate Kelly, John Dehlin  and Denver Snuffer are manipulated by the devil because they may look at things and make an honest decision that does not agree with yours and mine...well that seems to step into the judge not category.    Calling someone a wolf in sheep's clothing or of the devil, which you strongly imply above seems to step into condemning.  I would feel pretty condemned is someone said that to me.

 

I do like your comment about the Lord taken into account and knowing things you can't.   I suggest sticking to that paradigm.

 

I can partially agree with you but I still have to make some judgements in order to decide whether I want to accept their conclusions or not.

Link to comment

Both 3 Nephi 14:15 and Matthew 7:16 agree that making a judgment concerning a wolf in sheep's clothing is how you protect the sheep of the flock.

 

How can we beware without making a judgment about someone who fits the description? A condemnation, to me at least, implies that you've decided their fate for them and precluded their ability to change and repent. A judgment, in the eternal sense, is to me more like the Final Judgment, and that is reserved for the Son.

 

15 Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

 

The next two verses hit it home:

 

 16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

 17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but acorrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

 

Perhaps what Ivjd66 means is that John Dehlin's fruits are very suspect and match the description of someone playing at being a sheep, but in secret bears the fruit of apostasy which spreads like a disease to anyone in can infect. 

Is it possible to make a judgment for the sake of spiritual safety and not issue a condemnation of the person themselves? I certainly think so, but it can be a fine line. I don't think people like having their choices judged any more than being judged themselves, yet we must protect ourselves and those in our care.

Just my thoughts.

 

 

Fair enough.

Link to comment

I can partially agree with you but I still have to make some judgements in order to decide whether I want to accept their conclusions or not.

 

yes I agree

 

Really this is a tough issue and one that is hard to balance. I guess you judge to accept their conclusions or not but don't judge the person or condemn as was stated in the OP.   On the other hand all three persons were judged by church leaders and condemned by being excommunicated. 

Link to comment

yes I agree

 

Really this is a tough issue and one that is hard to balance. I guess you judge to accept their conclusions or not but don't judge the person or condemn as was stated in the OP.   On the other hand all three persons were judged by church leaders and condemned by being excommunicated. 

 

Condemnation is beyond my pay grade.  That right belongs to he who bought and paid for it with his blood.

Link to comment

Here is how I interpret it and try to apply judgement in my life:

 

We can and should judge between good and bad behaviors.  But, we should always avoid judgements of good and bad people.  I think that placing judgments of "good" or "bad" on ourselves or others is incredibly damaging and dangerous to self-perception.  If I believe that I am bad, that is a powerful self-belief that ultimately may become a self-fulfilling prophecy.  Bad people do bad things.  If I believe that I am good, I may overlook faults and not seek for mercy and grace.  I think it is equally true that when we judge others as good or bad, we see them through filters of judgement and may overlook much of the good that a "bad" person does, or faults that a "good" person has. When we place judgements of good or bad on others (our kids for example) they may grow up believing it. 

 

Here is my reasoning as to why we should never judge in this way:

 

Quite simply, we are in a current state of probation.  

 

To judge ourselves or others as being good or bad is to deny God’s justice and mercy, it is to place our fallible judgment and our imperfect understanding above His perfect judgment and infinite understanding. 
 
Judgment of good or bad, always leads to false beliefs about ourselves and others.  We are people that do good and bad things, not good and bad people.  There is no truly "bad" person, and no truly "good" person either.  We are just people in probation.  Only God can deem us good or bad.
 
The false belief that we are good:  A certain young man came to the Master and asked, “Good Master, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?”  Christ answered, “Why callest thou me good? There is none good but one, that is God.” (Matthew 19:16-17)
Why did Christ answer him in this way?  Was He not the lamb without blemish, the perfect exemplar, the sinless sacrifice for all men?  If Christ did not consider himself good, than who is good?  The answer is no one, not yet anyway.  Christ had not yet fulfilled all righteousness; He had not yet completed the will of the Father, and ascended to His Father to receive His inheritance and exaltation.   He was still in a probationary state.  He presumed not to judge himself as good until God deemed Him good.  To be good is to be exalted of the Father, it is to receive all that He has.  Why are we so quick to judge when even God waits until the last day to place judgment on us?

 

 
Here is a poem of my thoughts on this subject that I wrote a few years back:
 
 
 
The good don’t need grace, 

The bad don’t want it.

Either way you’re damned!
One can’t ascend from a peak.

Down self loathing pit, you’re too weak.

Either way you’re dammed!
“There are none good but God.”

He’s extending a limb,

grasp it, but not on a whim.
God waits 'till the end to review,
While so hastily we do eschew

One who is loved by Him.
To deem a man “bad,” with feet shod,

Is like trying to play God.

Stop...and witness His grace.
There's no good or bad man on earth,

Life is probation from birth.

Just love and you'll see His face.
 
 
Edited by pogi
Link to comment

 

Here is how I interpret it and try to apply judgement in my life:

 

We can and should judge between good and bad behaviors.  But, we should always avoid judgements of good and bad people.  I think that placing judgments of "good" or "bad" on ourselves or others is incredibly damaging and dangerous to self-perception.  If I believe that I am bad, that is a powerful self-belief that ultimately may become a self-fulfilling prophecy.  Bad people do bad things.  If I believe that I am good, I may overlook faults and not seek for mercy and grace.  When we place judgements of good or bad on others (our kids for example) they may grow up believing it. 

 

Here is my reasoning as to why we should never judge in this way:

 

Quite simply, we are in a current state of probation.  

 

To judge ourselves or others as being good or bad is to deny God’s justice and mercy, it is to place our fallible judgment and our imperfect understanding above His perfect judgment and infinite understanding. 
 
Judgment of good or bad, always leads to false beliefs about ourselves and others.  We are people that do good and bad things, not good and bad people.  There is no truly "bad" person, and no truly "good" person either.  We are just people in probation.  Only God can deem us good or bad.

 

The false belief that we are good:  A certain young man came to the Master and asked, “Good Master, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?”  Christ answered, “Why callest thou me good? There is none good but one, that is God.” (Matthew 19:16-17)
Why did Christ answer him in this way?  Was He not the lamb without blemish, the perfect exemplar, the sinless sacrifice for all men?  If Christ did not consider himself good, than who is good?  The answer is no one, not yet anyway.  Christ had not yet fulfilled all righteousness; He had not yet completed the will of the Father, and ascended to His Father to receive His inheritance and exaltation.   He was still in a probationary state.  He presumed not to judge himself as good until God deemed Him good.  To be good is to be exalted of the Father, it is to receive all that He has.  Why are we so quick to judge when even God waits until the last day to place judgment on us?

 

 
Here is a poem of my thoughts on this subject that I wrote a few years back:
 
 
 
The good don’t need grace, 

The bad don’t want it.

Either way you’re damned!
One can’t ascend from a peak.

Down self loathing pit, you’re too weak.

Either way you’re dammed!
“There are none good but God.”

He’s extending a limb,

grasp it, but not on a whim.
God waits 'till the end to review,
While so hastily we do eschew

One who is loved by Him.
To deem a man “bad,” with feet shod,

Is like trying to play God.

Stop...and witness His grace.
There's no good or bad man on earth,

Life is probation from birth.

Just love and you'll see His face.
 
 

 

.

Again as with Teancum I can partially agree but I must make a judgement about people before I decide how much association I want with them, if any.

Link to comment

.

Again as with Teancum I can partially agree but I must make a judgement about people before I decide how much association I want with them, if any.

 

Isn't it better to judge their individual behaviors instead of their overall person?  It is an important distinction in my mind.  That is sufficient to decide how much association you might want to have with them, no?

Edited by pogi
Link to comment

Isn't it better to judge their individual behaviors instead of their overall person?  It is an important distinction in my mind.  That is sufficient to decide how much association you might want to have with them, no?

 

In my mind the pattern of behaviors define the overall person.  That does not mean the overall person cannot change and when/if it does the behaviors will change.  I really see them as inseparably connected.

Edited by ERayR
Link to comment

In my mind the pattern of behaviors define the overall person. 

 

I understand the tendency to conflate behavior with being, it is something that I have struggled to overcome in the last several years of addiction recovery.  In studying human behavior, you come to find a complexity far more layered and deep than a superficial judgement can account for.  Any blanket judgement based on our limited perception and perspective of all the variables that define a persons being, is not very judicious in my mind.  

 

I agree with John Bradshaw who teaches that people get stuck in patterns of bad behavior primarily because of toxic shame - the often unconscious belief that "I am bad" instead of "I did bad".  I believe that when we form such judgments on others, we reinforce this toxic shame in their life and thus help to reinforce the bad behavior.   

 

When we judge behaviors instead of people, we view people as the much more intricate, complex, and nuanced beings that they really are.  Blanket judgement skews our perception through a biased filter of good or bad.  It colors the way we look at everything they do.  By creating such biases, we are often led into unrighteous judgment, which is damaging to self and others. 

 

I think it is completely unhealthy to judge self as good or bad (for reasons I have previously mentioned), we should instead judge our actions.  This helps us to overcome unhealthy behavior patterns in our lives.  I think this line of thinking naturally applies to others as well.  If I should not judge myself, I should not judge others either.  

Edited by pogi
Link to comment

I understand the tendency to conflate behavior with being, it is something that I have struggled to overcome in the last several years of addiction recovery.  In studying human behavior, you come to find a complexity far more layered and deep than a superficial judgement can account for.  Any blanket judgement based on our limited perception and perspective of all the variables that define a persons being, is not very judicious in my mind.  

 

I agree with John Bradshaw who teaches that people get stuck in patterns of bad behavior primarily because of toxic shame - the often unconscious belief that "I am bad" instead of "I did bad".  I believe that when we form such judgments on others, we reinforce this toxic shame in their life and thus help to reinforce the bad behavior.   

 

When we judge behaviors instead of people, we view people as the much more intricate, complex, and nuanced beings that they really are.  Blanket judgement skews our perception through a biased filter of good or bad.  It colors the way we look at everything they do.  By creating such biases, we are often led into unrighteous judgment, which is damaging to self and others. 

 

I think it is completely unhealthy to judge self as good or bad (for reasons I have previously mentioned), we should instead judge our actions.  This helps us to overcome unhealthy behavior patterns in our lives.  I think this line of thinking naturally applies to others as well.  If I should not judge myself, I should not judge others either.  

 

I can agree to this. 

Link to comment

According to 1 Corinthians 6:2-3, the saints will judge the world and the context is far more than just being the examples against which others are judged. This means that Christ will be further delegating the responsibility to judge.

Yes but that is after JESUS comes. Not now.

Link to comment

I can agree to this. 

 

Me too and I think this is what I was getting at (or at least trying to). I do not doubt that Kelly, Dehlin and Snuffer all have redeeming qualities. I do not doubt that they are good people. I think their actions are bad and I also believe based on the evidence available to me that Dehlin has not been completely honest. Those are judgments. That does not mean I think they are bound for hell. I have no authority to make such a determination and for me to even attempt such an analysis would be, IMO, sin.

Link to comment

I think judging is fine but it's important to be careful about how we judge others actions or words just in case we're not seeing things from the correct perspective. How many times have each of us seen someone do something or say something and then later discovered that we were wrong about what we thought we were seeing? Too many people jump to false conclusions sometimes and then make themselves look bad for how they respond to others who weren't even doing anything wrong. Would you want others to judge you based on a false idea of what you were doing or trying to convey with words instead of the correct idea about what you were doing?

I think the phrase "judge not lest ye be judged..." should be understood as "don't judge others in a WAY that you wouldn't want to be judged. Be careful about jumping to false conclusions or assumptions.

Link to comment
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...