Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
BCSpace

Water Wars: Mormons Vs Las Vegas

Recommended Posts

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36423250 

Quote

The 57km (35-mile) twin-bore Gotthard base tunnel will provide a high-speed rail link under the Swiss Alps between northern and southern Europe.

Switzerland says it will revolutionise European freight transport.

Goods currently carried on the route by a million lorries a year will go by train instead.

The tunnel has overtaken Japan's 53.9km Seikan rail tunnel as the longest in the world and pushed the 50.5km Channel Tunnel linking the UK and France into third place.

New tunneling equipment makes such a project much more efficient, and it makes it much more likely that such projects can be used to bring water thru a mountain range to a spillway into an area below sea level (such as the Dead Sea, the Salton Sea, or Death Valley).

Edited by Robert F. Smith

Share this post


Link to post
14 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36423250 

New tunneling equipment makes such a project much more efficient, and it makes it much more likely that such projects can be used to bring water thru a mountain range to a spillway into an area below sea level (such as the Dead Sea, the Salton Sea, or Death Valley).

There is no free lunch in physics. You're still talking about a below sea level tunnel to an even greater below sea level tunnel. Plus where are you going to put all that salty water?

Share this post


Link to post
14 hours ago, thesometimesaint said:

There is no free lunch in physics. You're still talking about a below sea level tunnel to an even greater below sea level tunnel. Plus where are you going to put all that salty water?

I wasn't talking about the English Chunnel, sometimes.  I was referring solely and only to sea level tunnels which bring water from the ocean to a spillway into a below sea level area, such as I listed (the overlook in each case at sea level).  There is always a cost-benefit analysis to be made, and I have not ever suggested that any of this is free -- you need to put aside the straw men, and deal with actual construction costs in our day.  I have provided specific examples, and the costs can be estimated in each case.

The Israelis have built lots of desalination plants along their coast (as you can see in this thread, above), and have solved the problem of sand, salt, and other impurities -- as all desalination plants must.  This is not new technology, although there have been some improvements.

Again, see “Could Israel’s Water Technology Ease Drought Conditions in California?” PBS Newshour, April 25, 2015, online at http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/israels-water-technology-ease-drought-conditions-california/ ..

Share this post


Link to post

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:saHeai64A4MJ:www.waterinfo.org/lake-mead+&cd=3&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us ,

Quote

Lake Mead’s surface Wednesday evening hit its lowest level since the man-made reservoir was created by the building of the Hoover Dam in 1935. The surface of the lake — a critical source of water for Nevada, California, Arizona and Mexico — is expected to drop lower in the coming weeks, 

 

Share this post


Link to post
17 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

I wasn't talking about the English Chunnel, sometimes.  I was referring solely and only to sea level tunnels which bring water from the ocean to a spillway into a below sea level area, such as I listed (the overlook in each case at sea level).  There is always a cost-benefit analysis to be made, and I have not ever suggested that any of this is free -- you need to put aside the straw men, and deal with actual construction costs in our day.  I have provided specific examples, and the costs can be estimated in each case.

The Israelis have built lots of desalination plants along their coast (as you can see in this thread, above), and have solved the problem of sand, salt, and other impurities -- as all desalination plants must.  This is not new technology, although there have been some improvements.

Again, see “Could Israel’s Water Technology Ease Drought Conditions in California?” PBS Newshour, April 25, 2015, online at http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/israels-water-technology-ease-drought-conditions-california/ ..

I wasn't either. Digging a tunnel from the Pacific Ocean to the Salton Sea(A distance of around 100 miles) is about 3 times longer than the English/French "Chunnel". Plus there are mountains between the Pacific Ocean and the Salton Sea. Even a spill way won't solve that problem. There is still the problem of the Imperial Valley which is a major source of fruits/vegetables, and it has cities in it.

Filtration of sea water costs about 5 times more than any other source. No! Israel has not solved those problems. The resulting brine is simply dumped somewhere else.

In select locations along the coast such filtration systems may provide a relatively small amount of water for human consumption. Which accounts for some 20% of California water needs. The other 80% is used by agriculture. Unfortunately people have to eat as well as drink.

Look. I'm not saying there is nothing we can do. But conservation, water retention, and better farming practices, will be a better short term solution than what you are proposing. Anyway, if it is a 4-5 year drought we'll be OK. If it is a 500 year drought, and we've had those before, a lot of people will have to move.

Share this post


Link to post
27 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said:

I wasn't either. Digging a tunnel from the Pacific Ocean to the Salton Sea(A distance of around 100 miles) is about 3 times longer than the English/French "Chunnel". Plus there are mountains between the Pacific Ocean and the Salton Sea. Even a spill way won't solve that problem. There is still the problem of the Imperial Valley which is a major source of fruits/vegetables, and it has cities in it.

Filtration of sea water costs about 5 times more than any other source. No! Israel has not solved those problems. The resulting brine is simply dumped somewhere else.

In select locations along the coast such filtration systems may provide a relatively small amount of water for human consumption. Which accounts for some 20% of California water needs. The other 80% is used by agriculture. Unfortunately people have to eat as well as drink.

Look. I'm not saying there is nothing we can do. But conservation, water retention, and better farming practices, will be a better short term solution than what you are proposing. Anyway, if it is a 4-5 year drought we'll be OK. If it is a 500 year drought, and we've had those before, a lot of people will have to move.

I suppose it is too much to ask you to actually read the accounts of the double tunnel recently opened, which goes through the Alps, the longest tunnel of its kind, and has nothing to do with the Chunnel -- which goes under the English Channel.  The whole point of citing this recent tunneling through the Alps is that one can do it, and that the technology is available.  Would it cost less to pump water over mountains, as we do with the California Aquaduct?  Again this is a question for cost-benefit analysis.  A one time cost versus a continuing cost over time.  Instead of addressing that, you call the spillway into question (a hydroelectric necessity if you are both generating electricity and desalinating water at that spillway), as though huge amounts of water will be flooding the Imperial Valley, which is nonsense.  You are ignoring practical reality.

Instead of adopting your defeatist approach, the Israelis now desalinate most of the water which they drink, which leaves gray water and natural riverine water elsewhere in the country available for agriculture and the Palestinians.  Instead of whining that it couldn't be done, they went ahead and did it.

A wide range of options are carefully considered at http://www.usbr.gov/lc/region/saltnsea/pdf_files/ssafpr/c-5.pdf , and http://www.fdungan.com/salton.htm , which points out that 

Quote

Environmentalists believe that within the next fifty years, the Dead Sea could shrink to less than half of its current size.  To prevent that, Israel and Jordan plan to build a pipeline more than three-hundred kilometers long.  The pipeline would pump water from the Red Sea into the Dead Sea.  After the pipeline is built, the two countries hope to build a canal and a salt removal system that will provide fresh water to Jordanians, Israelis and Palestinians.  The pipeline will take at least three years to build and will cost a billion dollars.  Israel and Jordan plan to pay for it with aid from other countries.  The project is expected to begin after a nine-month study is completed.  The water project is seen as a major step forward towards peace in the Middle East.  Experts say the agreement sends a message that the environment, ecology and nature are more important than borders or political conflicts.

This latter suggestion does not entail a spillway or hydroelectric project, as in the long-time Dead-Med proposal, but it is interesting that the Israelis and Jordanians are going ahead with a canal from the Red Sea.

Share this post


Link to post

You're still talking about a below sea level entrance to an even more below sea level outlet.

It makes more economic sense to use that desalinated water where the population is, along the coast.

Share this post


Link to post
On 6/5/2016 at 10:02 AM, thesometimesaint said:

You're still talking about a below sea level entrance to an even more below sea level outlet.

It makes more economic sense to use that desalinated water where the population is, along the coast.

Actually, Israel has a plethora of desalination plants along the Mediterranean coast already, and most Israelis drink desalinated water.  Somehow you seem to have missed that point.  Bringing water into the Dead Sea from the Red Sea is another matter entirely, although it would have special benefits for Jordanians -- who desperately need more water -- as well as renewing the Dead Sea (which is quickly shrinking) with water from the ocean which is less salty than the Dead Sea..

Share this post


Link to post

The Red Sea is stilt salty water. In California save the expense of tunnels, aqueducts, etc, and use the treated water closer to where the population is.

Share this post


Link to post

Here is another take on refreshing the waters of the Dead Sea, from Ezekiel 47:

1. . . he brought me again unto the door of the house; and, behold, waters issued out from under the threshold of the house eastward: for the forefront of the house stood toward the east, and the waters came down from under from the right side of the house, at the south side of the altar.
2 Then brought he me out of the way of the gate northward, and led me about the way without unto the utter gate by the way that looketh eastward; and, behold, there ran out waters on the right side.
3 And when the man that had the line in his hand went forth eastward, he measured a thousand cubits, and he brought me through the waters; the waters were to the ankles.
4 Again he measured a thousand, and brought me through the waters; the waters were to the knees. Again he measured a thousand, and brought me through; the waters were to the loins.
5 Afterward he measured a thousand; and it was a river that I could not pass over: for the waters were risen, waters to swim in, a river that could not be passed over.
6 ¶ And he said unto me, Son of man, hast thou seen this? Then he brought me, and caused me to return to the brink of the river.
7 Now when I had returned, behold, at the bank of the river were very many trees on the one side and on the other.
8 Then said he unto me, These waters issue out toward the east country, and go down into the desert, and go into the sea: which being brought forth into the sea, the waters shall be healed.
9 And it shall come to pass, that every thing that liveth, which moveth, whithersoever the rivers shall come, shall live: and there shall be a very great multitude of fish, because these waters shall come thither: for they shall be healed; and every thing shall live whither the river cometh.
10 And it shall come to pass, that the fishers shall stand upon it from En-gedi even unto En-eglaim; they shall be a place to spread forth nets; their fish shall be according to their kinds, as the fish of the great sea, exceeding many.
11 But the miry places thereof and the marshes thereof shall not be healed; they shall be given to salt.

Share this post


Link to post
45 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

8 Then said he unto me, These waters issue out toward the east country, and go down into the desert, and go into the sea: which being brought forth into the sea, the waters shall be healed.
9 And it shall come to pass, that every thing that liveth, which moveth, whithersoever the rivers shall come, shall live: and there shall be a very great multitude of fish, because these waters shall come thither: for they shall be healed; and every thing shall live whither the river cometh.
10 And it shall come to pass, that the fishers shall stand upon it from En-gedi even unto En-eglaim; they shall be a place to spread forth nets; their fish shall be according to their kinds, as the fish of the great sea, exceeding many.
11 But the miry places thereof and the marshes thereof shall not be healed; they shall be given to salt.

Very interesting and cool at the same time. I was going to ask if you believe that this tunneling could be a fulfillment  of healing according to those verses?

Share this post


Link to post

The Dead Sea Area(Part of the Great Rift Valley) is already splitting and shifting. It is just a matter of time before sea water enters the Dead Sea.

Share this post


Link to post
4 hours ago, Anijen said:

Very interesting and cool at the same time. I was going to ask if you believe that this tunneling could be a fulfillment  of healing according to those verses?

I don't know, but it sure is interesting.

Share this post


Link to post
2 hours ago, thesometimesaint said:

The Dead Sea Area(Part of the Great Rift Valley) is already splitting and shifting. It is just a matter of time before sea water enters the Dead Sea.

Yeh, down the road a piece.

Share this post


Link to post
11 hours ago, Anijen said:

Very interesting and cool at the same time. I was going to ask if you believe that this tunneling could be a fulfillment  of healing according to those verses?

No.  According to the Book of Zechariah, at Jesus' Second Coming, His foot will touch the top of the Mount of Olives, causing the mountain to split in two halves, one moving to the north and the other moving to the south, creating a new valley in between.  Pure waters will gush from underneath the new temple on top of Mount Moriah (present day location of the Dome of the Rock) flooding the new valley and cascading down to the Dead Sea, flushing out the heavy mineral content, thereby causing a tremendous refreshing of the environment and prolific growth of plants and a revived ecosystem.

Share this post


Link to post
On 6/22/2016 at 11:42 AM, Anijen said:

Very interesting and cool at the same time. I was going to ask if you believe that this tunneling could be a fulfillment  of healing according to those verses?

Elon Musk is going for more advanced (cheaper and faster) tunneling technology:  https://www.wired.com/2017/01/inside-tunnel-elon-musk-already-digging-los-angeles/ .

Share this post


Link to post

Hannah Osborne, “Graphene sieve turns seawater into clean drinking water – and the technology can be scaled up,” International Business Time, Mar 4, 2017, online at https://www.yahoo.com/news/graphene-sieve-turns-seawater-clean-154300721.html

Natasha Lomas, “Graphene used to sieve salts from seawater,” TechCrunch, Mar 4, 2017, online at https://techcrunch.com/2017/04/04/graphene-used-to-sieve-salts-from-seawater/?ncid=txtlnkusaolp00000591&yptr=yahoo

Share this post


Link to post

What a difference a year makes. The terrible California drought has been, for the most part , ended in one season. Reserves are at capacity again.

Share this post


Link to post
18 hours ago, strappinglad said:

What a difference a year makes. The terrible California drought has been, for the most part , ended in one season. Reserves are at capacity again.

We actually need many more years of above normal rain to refill the aquifers. That being said full reservoirs are a good thing. 

Share this post


Link to post
Sign in to follow this  
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

  • Similar Content

    • By piccione
      If any are interested, there is a new free pdf book available comparing the order of Nehor characteristics with the Maya religion at www.academia.edu/35102438/EVIDENCE_of_the_NEHOR_RELIGION_in_MESOAMERICA
    • By Bernard Gui
      In 2 Nephi 2, Joseph, son of Lehi, is given this promise by his father:
      There is some question who this "one mighty among them" will be. It's not Joseph Smith, because the one will be a descendant of Lehi. Joseph Fielding Smith and Spencer Kimball suggested it would be a future prophet to come out of the remnants of Lehi (a "Lamanite" or "Indian" prophet).
      Let me propose another candidate, one who we all know well but perhaps take for granted.
      He did much good in word and deed. He was an instrument in the hands of God. He had exceeding faith. He worked mighty wonders. He did that thing which is great in the sight of God in bringing restoration to the house of Israel and the seed of Lehi.   1. He did much good in word and deed.
       
      2. He was an instrument in the hands of God.
       
      3. He had exceeding faith.
       
      4. He worked mighty wonders.
       
      5. He did that thing which is great in the sight of God in bringing the restoration to the house of Israel and the seed of Lehi.
       
      Yes, I'm talking about that giant of a Nephite, the Prophet Mormon. As a boy, he was a leader of men. As a man, he was one of the greatest prophets of God. As a prophet, he was fearless in his faith and secure in his knowledge. As a warrior, he gave his life in defense of his people. As a father, he inspired greatness in his son Moroni. As a historian, he was entrusted to make and preserve the record of his people that became the foundation of the Restoration. Truly, he was "one mighty among them."
      Granted, some may point out that he claimed to be a descendant of Nephi, not Joseph, but it is reasonable to conclude that the descendants of the faithful Lehites (Nephi, Sam, Joseph, Jacob, and Zoram) intermarried and all could claim to be descended from Nephi. In fact, all the descendants of those Lehi sons became grouped under the head of Nephi. But is it not possible that this man was the one prophesied to come and bring restoration to Lehi's family?
      Others may have come to this conclusion, but I'm not aware of any who have proposed Mormon. Feel free to burst that bubble of pride.
      Your thoughts?
    • By Meadowchik
      This morning I came across a notion expressed by an LDS member, positing that the poor have a better chance at learning wisdom and love because of their economic and social position.
      I would like to respond to that idea here.
      As much as the idea of the noble, happy poor is appealing to me and as much as I hope for the happiness of the vast majority of the world's population living in relative poverty, I think the idea that having no social or material capital helps us misses the fundamentals.
      On the contrary, it is agency that opportunes us to choose wisdom and love, and in many cases poverty has a strong inverse relationship with agency.
      Think about the majority of impoverished globally, who wash their own clothes by hand: what happens to the mother who can use a machine? She has more time, her family has more time. Maybe she can read and then change her world with what she reads.
      Before she has a machine she has less choice and after she has a washing machine she has more choices. She now has to trade off less of material advantages and necessities if she chooses to spend time reading, to herself or anyone else.
      Thus material advantages allow a person the chance to make more decisions, to exercise power in more ways, for good or bad. And the fruitful exercise of agency produced more opportunities for fruit-bearing agency.
      In other words, without agency, the righteous exercise of power--or in other words, virtue--is impossible.
      I believe that Christ expects us to love "the least" because, in part, He wants all of us to experience opportunities of power and thus develop virtuous personal qualities grown from righteous exercise of power, virtues by virtue of virtue.
      Thoughts?
    • By rockpond
      From yesterday's Deseret News:
      If that number is correct and if we assume that the Church's annual income is around $6 billion, than the Church's welfare and humanitarian aid averages about 0.7% of its annual income.  Or, looking at it another way, it is averaging $2.67 per member in welfare and aid efforts.
    • By morgan.deane
      Greetings. I'm working on a new piece about what battle was like for the average Nephite soldier. This is a face of battle approach somewhat common to military history but relatively lacking in regards to the Book of Mormon.  (I can send a copy of the current draft to interested readers.)  I remember reading somewhere about an article that compares Moroni (or Mormon) and his writings to a survivor of the holocaust, or somebody that shows he went through trauma or suffers from PTSD. Does anybody know about this piece and where I can find it?  I know my description is somewhat vague, but I've only heard about this from an off hand comment at a conference. I've done my best but can't seem to find it. I appreciate any help you could offer. Thanks.   
×
×
  • Create New...