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I’m just wanting some dialogue on something I think about often. I’m active in the LDS church. I believe that it teaches good pronciples and I believe in Christ. I believe families are forever. What I have a hard time with is believing families are only forever IF certain rituals are done in an LDS temple. My heart and mind can’t quite wrap around any possible reason for that....but I’ve tried to have faith. The problem is; it’s the BASIS of our religion. “Families can be together forever”, and “go to the temple” are pounded in us. But (for example) when a very righteous non LDS friend whose husband has died tells me she knows she will be with her husband again, and sees no reason why some ritual would need to be done....one that she can’t even do now until she’s dead....I tend to agree with her! Did Christ teach that at all? It seems to me that He would have taught us about sealing to a spouse, etc. if that were the bottom line. There are so many examples in life where the ideals we are taught just can’t work out. Blended families, deaths, etc. So, yeah....I do have faith that it will all work out in heaven and that maybe we just don’t have all the understanding needed. BUT shouldn’t we have a logical reason with the minds God gave us? I can’t see it. I want to but I can’t.
I feel I have found a way of seeing Mormonism which justifies visions as being "real" by justifying human experience as the only reality humans can know.
Visions are human experience, therefore in a sense and in a qualified way, they are as "real" as science. They are about different subject matter, but fully justifiable as a part of human experience. We can even justify speaking of them as being "true" within the context of Wittgensteinian language games and a pragmatic theory of truth, in which truth is dependent on a given context and in speech within a given social group.
So fans of basketball can debate whether or not a given call by a given ref was a "true call" for example- use any sport you like. Within the rules of that game, there is "truth" within the context and the facts are debatable, but everyone agrees on what "truth" is in that context.
Scripturally I see that as cohesive with D&C 93 which speaks of the "spheres" of truth and even this talk by president Kimball https://www.lds.org/ensign/1978/09/absolute-truth?lang=eng (as well as MANY other scriptures.)
But have been blathering my views here for a long time and will intentionally avoid voicing them in this new thread. I just want all to know that I AM a "true believing Mormon" though here I play an atheist on the internet.
So come on all you TBM proponents of objective reality- you know who you are!
Come on and tell me why YOUR testimony is "objectively real" and Joseph Smith's vision was as well.
The intent is to show me IF there are any theories other than mine which I find justifiable which are current in the views of other "Mormons in the street" as opposed to weird philosophy types like me. I am betting there are not after 40 years of thinking this way, but I could be wrong.
I predict this will be a short thread unless I get going on MY theories which I will try to avoid
Wait a second.... I have to put on my atheist hat..... THERE
OK all you dang TBM's- show me how I am wrong. Show me how Josephs hallucination was of objective reality. Go for it! The challenge is hereby issued!!
I have the popcorn out.....
By why me
My daughter just told me about one of her mission companions who had a strong testimony has now left the church. My daughter said that when she was on her mission this missionary companion would bear her testimony with strength and conviction. But now, after her mission she has left the church. So my question is: are lds testimonies built on sand or rock? Now, when I hear testimonies, I have difficulties believing such testimonies because of the examples that I have seen about people who gave their testimonies with conviction but who have since left the church.
Hello, new to the boards. A little background... I no longer consider myself belonging to any religion and guess if I had to call myself anything I'd say spiritual. I've also lived in Utah all my life and was raised in a Mormon family. I still have a lot of family that is Mormon and some of my best friends are Mormon. I like to discuss religion and I'm not here to offend anyone. If I do that is not my intention. I hope I can give good conversation and something to think about from time to time as I hope to get the same out of anyone else.
To the subject... something from my Mormon days that always bothered me from a pretty young age is about when anyone gives their testimony. Everyone who is familiar with the church knows what is generally said in most people's testimonies. The part I want to bring up is when anyone says (and everyone says this), "I know this church is true" and "I know" this and that is true. This is where the fact vs. faith part comes in. It's technically a lie and breaking a commandment to say, "I know", when it would be appropriate to say, "I believe this church is true" or "I have faith that this church is true". I realize that the Mormon religion isn't the only religion that talks in this way. I've heard pastors, priests, etc. say the same types of things. I've always felt that it's technically a lie to say that no matter how much you believe it in your heart. I'm not saying anyone is wrong for believing what they choose to believe but fact and faith are not the same thing. I think an atheist would be lying to say, "I know there is no God" no matter how much they believe it.
Curious what others think about this. Thoughts, comments?
By Bill "Papa" Lee
It is true, this is how they get you. While serving in the Army in Germany (West Germany then) I had a platoon Sargent who was an inactive Later-day Saint. I had an assignment to go out to a firing rage for a couple of weeks. So when my neighbor gave me the Book of Mormon as I was getting ready to leave, she gave me a copy. Upon receiving it in my hand (touching it) I was overcome with awe. I not no time to discuss it, but with whispered breath, I asked "what is this". I was so overcome that even if I had the time, I doubt I would have understood. In was in Jan 1979 that it was given to me. For the next four hours I drove the jeep through a blizzard. All the while my mind was on the odd book. When I arrived I took the Book to my platoon Sargent, along with many pamphlets I was given, believing them to be for him. He tried to tell me the story and raped it compleatley.
As I came out later than others, I was required to man the switchboard that night. Of course everyone was sleeping, so I began to read, and the Spirit of God rested upon me, in a way that I had never before experienced. I read through to the Book of Mosiah and then turned my attention to the many pamphlets I had been given. The next time I saw my wife, I told her I wanted every piece of paper printed by this Church. Little did I know for what I was asking. But digested them all, but from that first night I was a convert.
I tell you this because, I have had two very serious brushes with death...the last one this weekend. I share this so that all might know, before I leave the board or this earth. I am a believer, and make no excuses.
So yes, reading the Book of Mormon can get you and is why our detractors fear us and warn others to stat away from the most precious book!
Bill (Papa) Lee
God bless you all, and God love you all enough to have the same experience.