Robert F. Smith Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 Should religious rules of modesty be imposed in public schools? What of the Utah high school which recently forced a 16-year-old teen to cover her shoulders at a school dance? Should the rules enforced at LDS Church buildings and institutions also be required in public institutions? Rachel Bertsche, “High-Schooler Told to Cover Up for Exposing Her Shoulder,” Yahoo.com, January 29, 2015, online at https://www.yahoo.com/parenting/high-schooler-told-to-cover-up-for-exposing-her-109503228597.html , A photo of the teen in her dress is included. On the other hand, how does this apply in France where public law forbids the wearing of the Muslim hijab/niqab by women -- in order to maintain the truly "French" character of the country. That prohibition has been upheld by the European Court of Human Rights (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28106900). Still from another viewpoint, should Sharia Law be imposed on a secular state? That is the objective of an Islamic Caliphate, wherever it is installed. Link to comment
Calm Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 LDS standards are more cap sleeves, aren't they? as opposed to the school's standards as they can be sleeveless: girls’ dresses and tops must have a 2” minimum strap on each shoulder Link to comment
KevinG Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 Ridiculous! I am however opposed to yoga pants on the general principle that they look hideous on most people. Link to comment
bluebell Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 What this school did was really really dumb. That dress was perfectly modest. Sometimes i think schools are too extreme when it comes to dress codes. Either anything goes and you have girls in school in tube tops and shorty shorts or they get like this where you get turned away because.....who even knows. It's not that hard to just make sure the breasts are covered and the shorts and skirts are long enough to be decent (fingertip length is easy enough) and then ban tank tops during regular school if you want them wearing sleeves. For formals, i don't think covering the shoulders should be imposed. Link to comment
KevinG Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 What this school did was really really dumb. That dress was perfectly modest. Sometimes i think schools are too extreme when it comes to dress codes. Either anything goes and you have girls in school in tube tops and shorty shorts or they get like this where you get turned away because.....who even knows. It's not that hard to just make sure the breasts are covered and the shorts and skirts are long enough to be decent (fingertip length is easy enough) and then ban tank tops during regular school if you want them wearing sleeves. For formals, i don't think covering the shoulders should be imposed.Thank you for putting the blame where it belongs. When local schools in Atlanta impose arbitrary and unreasonable dress standards no one blames the Baptist church. Link to comment
3DOP Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 Should religious rules of modesty be imposed in public schools? What of the Utah high school which recently forced a 16-year-old teen to cover her shoulders at a school dance? Should the rules enforced at LDS Church buildings and institutions also be required in public institutions? Rachel Bertsche, “High-Schooler Told to Cover Up for Exposing Her Shoulder,” Yahoo.com, January 29, 2015, online at https://www.yahoo.com/parenting/high-schooler-told-to-cover-up-for-exposing-her-109503228597.html , A photo of the teen in her dress is included. On the other hand, how does this apply in France where public law forbids the wearing of the Muslim hijab/niqab by women -- in order to maintain the truly "French" character of the country. That prohibition has been upheld by the European Court of Human Rights (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28106900). Still from another viewpoint, should Sharia Law be imposed on a secular state? That is the objective of an Islamic Caliphate, wherever it is installed. Good question Robert. It seems to assume that we either allow everything or else must have a state that resembles an Islamic caliphate. There are Catholic theories of the relations of church and state which permits society to protect itself against vice without forcing anybody to be Catholic. A secular state, to be consistent, cannot easily legislate against public indecency. It does have one benefit though. It makes thoughtful people of all religions wonder if there is not a way to have public morality without religious persecution. I think we need to ask ourselves, is religious persecution the inevitable alternative to the secular state? I believe the answer is in the negative. However, I am also thinking I would almost opt for religious persecution if I could escape the reign of vice and corruption of morals, both public and private, which seems to be the inevitable tendency in the consistent secular state as it continually analyzes how its laws have reflected religious beliefs and seeks to disestablish everything with such roots. Rory Link to comment
Traela Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 What this school did was really really dumb. That dress was perfectly modest. Sometimes i think schools are too extreme when it comes to dress codes. Either anything goes and you have girls in school in tube tops and shorty shorts or they get like this where you get turned away because.....who even knows. It's not that hard to just make sure the breasts are covered and the shorts and skirts are long enough to be decent (fingertip length is easy enough) and then ban tank tops during regular school if you want them wearing sleeves. For formals, i don't think covering the shoulders should be imposed.I have rather short arms. A fingertip length skirt would be decidedly NOT decent. Link to comment
Robert F. Smith Posted January 31, 2015 Author Share Posted January 31, 2015 What this school did was really really dumb. That dress was perfectly modest. Sometimes i think schools are too extreme when it comes to dress codes. Either anything goes and you have girls in school in tube tops and shorty shorts or they get like this where you get turned away because.....who even knows. It's not that hard to just make sure the breasts are covered and the shorts and skirts are long enough to be decent (fingertip length is easy enough) and then ban tank tops during regular school if you want them wearing sleeves. For formals, i don't think covering the shoulders should be imposed. Also, this may be the last chance a good Mormon girl may even get to wear such fashions before becoming endowed. It's harmless. Link to comment
Robert F. Smith Posted January 31, 2015 Author Share Posted January 31, 2015 Good question Robert. It seems to assume that we either allow everything or else must have a state that resembles an Islamic caliphate. There are Catholic theories of the relations of church and state which permits society to protect itself against vice without forcing anybody to be Catholic. A secular state, to be consistent, cannot easily legislate against public indecency. It does have one benefit though. It makes thoughtful people of all religions wonder if there is not a way to have public morality without religious persecution. I think we need to ask ourselves, is religious persecution the inevitable alternative to the secular state? I believe the answer is in the negative. However, I am also thinking I would almost opt for religious persecution if I could escape the reign of vice and corruption of morals, both public and private, which seems to be the inevitable tendency in the consistent secular state as it continually analyzes how its laws have reflected religious beliefs and seeks to disestablish everything with such roots. RoryI was raised in California in the 40s & 50s when such questions never came up. Most communities seemed to understand normal dress and grooming standards without being hectored by someone with a narrow religious point of view. It may have constituted a "civil religion." Perhaps you had much the same experience growing up. Or maybe it all became controversial when the Hippies began to do their "thing." You know, long hair, bell bottoms, beads, etc. I had Roman Catholic classmates who seemed entirely normal in high school, but I used to wonder about those strangely dressed parochial school students in our town. Even stranger were the nuns in their habits who taught them. It was like an alien world, which I carefully avoided. Only much later did I learn that they were entirely normal people. Link to comment
Calm Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 I thought it was the Flappers who ushered in the downfall of Moral Society with their bobbed hair and those way short, below the knee skirts. Link to comment
Stargazer Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 Should religious rules of modesty be imposed in public schools? What of the Utah high school which recently forced a 16-year-old teen to cover her shoulders at a school dance? Should the rules enforced at LDS Church buildings and institutions also be required in public institutions? Rachel Bertsche, “High-Schooler Told to Cover Up for Exposing Her Shoulder,” Yahoo.com, January 29, 2015, online at https://www.yahoo.com/parenting/high-schooler-told-to-cover-up-for-exposing-her-109503228597.html , A photo of the teen in her dress is included. On the other hand, how does this apply in France where public law forbids the wearing of the Muslim hijab/niqab by women -- in order to maintain the truly "French" character of the country. That prohibition has been upheld by the European Court of Human Rights (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28106900). Still from another viewpoint, should Sharia Law be imposed on a secular state? That is the objective of an Islamic Caliphate, wherever it is installed. I attended High School in Southern California from 1964-1969. Our totally Gentile High School had dress standards that would have made current LDS teen dance standards look stodgy by comparison. Those hemlines better come only as high as mid-kneecap, and no midriffs showing. Sleeveless blouses are OK, but the blouses better not be too sheer. And those standards had nothing to do with religion. We were there for education, not titulation. Or so they told us. Link to comment
Tacenda Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 Can't link at the moment but saw the other day that someone posted a picture of a BYU coed's photo wearing a sleeveless gown in the yearbook back in the 50's I believe. And also read in the recent article that the local people that are in that particular school area make up the dress codes. Therefore it very well could reflect church standards as a high concentration that live there are LDS, my brothers in law and sister in law had kids that went to Lone Peak. Link to comment
thesometimesaint Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 Should religious rules of modesty be imposed in public schools? What of the Utah high school which recently forced a 16-year-old teen to cover her shoulders at a school dance? Should the rules enforced at LDS Church buildings and institutions also be required in public institutions. Still from another viewpoint, should Sharia Law be imposed on a secular state? That is the objective of an Islamic Caliphate, wherever it is installed. Personally I don't care what people wear other than for warmth, safety, and not scare the public. Not quite. Link to comment
strappinglad Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 In 1970 I taught in Skyline High School. Mini skirts were the rage. I had to teach to the ceiling most of the time. Imagine, right there surrounded by all those repressive Mormons and their dress standards. Note: Skyline is in SLC . Link to comment
Robert F. Smith Posted February 1, 2015 Author Share Posted February 1, 2015 I thought it was the Flappers who ushered in the downfall of Moral Society with their bobbed hair and those way short, below the knee skirts.Yeh, and Ragtime music. Link to comment
Robert F. Smith Posted February 1, 2015 Author Share Posted February 1, 2015 Yes, the Abbasid Caliphate was a very progressive center of learning and culture. They gathered all of the world's literature in a vast library, sponsored scribal copying of it all, and the production of more advanced thinking. They allowed Christians and Jews to worship freely, even though Muslims were privileged. A Jew might even be the Grand Wazir (prime minister) of that Caliphate Empire. Oriental Jews under that Caliphate were by far the most advanced and intellectual of all Jews. When Europe finally came out of the Dark Ages, it was that vast store of great literature and learning which caused the Renaissance. Without the Golden Age of Islam that would not have been possible. Link to comment
thesometimesaint Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 The sad thing is they couldn't maintain it. I'm doubting that we can for much longer. Link to comment
The Nehor Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 Ridiculous! I am however opposed to yoga pants on the general principle that they look hideous on most people. Oh.....but those few they look good on...... Link to comment
Rain Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 I have rather short arms. A fingertip length skirt would be decidedly NOT decent. It always makes me laugh. I also have short arms and a long body. We have checked it out and my bum would be obviously visible.I don't blame this on anyone except the woman who stopped the girl, unless the school instructed her otherwise from the rules. She either didn't understand the rule or made her own rules. I don't have a problem schools making modesty rules for proms. I am aware of one school changing to more modest standards and getting a lot of heat for it. What wasn't widely known was what was happening at the prom before the standards were set - full exposure of body parts. The administration along with parents chose to make it easier to stop the problems before they happened by increasing modesty. Link to comment
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 I am all for standards or lack there of. I am fine with what ever the school decides. Is this position a little extreme? Probably. I think it is important to realize that this is probably localized. I don't remember any such standards when I went to West Jordan High. We are a long way off from Sharia law. Link to comment
tonie Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 Thank you for putting the blame where it belongs. When local schools in Atlanta impose arbitrary and unreasonable dress standards no one blames the Baptist church. I suppose you would have a point, but this isn't the first time a female in Utah was publicly shamed for her attire. Link to comment
tonie Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 Should religious rules of modesty be imposed in public schools? What of the Utah high school which recently forced a 16-year-old teen to cover her shoulders at a school dance? Should the rules enforced at LDS Church buildings and institutions also be required in public institutions? Rachel Bertsche, “High-Schooler Told to Cover Up for Exposing Her Shoulder,” Yahoo.com, January 29, 2015, online at https://www.yahoo.com/parenting/high-schooler-told-to-cover-up-for-exposing-her-109503228597.html , A photo of the teen in her dress is included. On the other hand, how does this apply in France where public law forbids the wearing of the Muslim hijab/niqab by women -- in order to maintain the truly "French" character of the country. That prohibition has been upheld by the European Court of Human Rights (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28106900). Still from another viewpoint, should Sharia Law be imposed on a secular state? That is the objective of an Islamic Caliphate, wherever it is installed. Robert, next time would you put a warning (Not Safe For Work = NSFW) on such articles. Link to comment
bluebell Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 I suppose you would have a point, but this isn't the first time a female in Utah was publicly shamed for her attire. It actually happens everywhere-it's not a Utah thing. Washington- http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2013/06/teen-turned-away-from-prom-over-cleavage-wants-apology/ North Carolina- http://abc11.com/archive/9519716/ Ohio- http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2318300/High-school-senior-girls-left-devastated-turned-away-prom-wearing-inappropriate-dresses.html These are just some examples out of many out there. Link to comment
Stargazer Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 Stop complaining! Those school authorities are trying to save us from evil. Here is a prime example of their good work on our behalf:Magic Hobbit Ring Suspension And the evil miscreant has also been in trouble for bringing in a big book to show for an astronomy lesson -- only the book also had a picture of a pregnant woman! Horrible. Just horrible. Link to comment
Avatar4321 Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 Yes, the Abbasid Caliphate was a very progressive center of learning and culture. They gathered all of the world's literature in a vast library, sponsored scribal copying of it all, and the production of more advanced thinking. They allowed Christians and Jews to worship freely, even though Muslims were privileged. A Jew might even be the Grand Wazir (prime minister) of that Caliphate Empire. Oriental Jews under that Caliphate were by far the most advanced and intellectual of all Jews. When Europe finally came out of the Dark Ages, it was that vast store of great literature and learning which caused the Renaissance. Without the Golden Age of Islam that would not have been possible.The Irish were also a large part of storing literature during the dark ages Link to comment
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.