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Should religious rules of modesty be imposed in public schools?  What of the Utah high school which recently forced a 16-year-old teen to cover her shoulders at a school dance?  Should the rules enforced at LDS Church buildings and institutions also be required in public institutions?

 

Rachel Bertsche, “High-Schooler Told to Cover Up for Exposing Her Shoulder,” Yahoo.com, January 29, 2015, online at https://www.yahoo.com/parenting/high-schooler-told-to-cover-up-for-exposing-her-109503228597.html  ,  A photo of the teen in her dress is included.
 
On the other hand, how does this apply in France where public law forbids the wearing of the Muslim hijab/niqab by women -- in order to maintain the truly "French" character of the country.  That prohibition has been upheld by the European Court of Human Rights (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28106900).
 
Still from another viewpoint, should Sharia Law be imposed on a secular state?  That is the objective of an Islamic Caliphate, wherever it is installed.
 

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LDS standards are more cap sleeves, aren't they? as opposed to the school's standards as they can be sleeveless:

 

girls’ dresses and tops must have a 2” minimum strap on each shoulder

 

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Ridiculous!  

 

I am however opposed to yoga pants on the general principle that they look hideous on most people.

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What this school did was really really dumb.  That dress was perfectly modest.  Sometimes i think schools are too extreme when it comes to dress codes.  Either anything goes and you have girls in school in tube tops and shorty shorts or they get like this where you get turned away because.....who even knows.

 

It's not that hard to just make sure the breasts are covered and the shorts and skirts are long enough to be decent (fingertip length is easy enough) and then ban tank tops during regular school if you want them wearing sleeves.  For formals, i don't think covering the shoulders should be imposed.  

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What this school did was really really dumb.  That dress was perfectly modest.  Sometimes i think schools are too extreme when it comes to dress codes.  Either anything goes and you have girls in school in tube tops and shorty shorts or they get like this where you get turned away because.....who even knows.

 

It's not that hard to just make sure the breasts are covered and the shorts and skirts are long enough to be decent (fingertip length is easy enough) and then ban tank tops during regular school if you want them wearing sleeves.  For formals, i don't think covering the shoulders should be imposed.

Thank you for putting the blame where it belongs. When local schools in Atlanta impose arbitrary and unreasonable dress standards no one blames the Baptist church.

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Should religious rules of modesty be imposed in public schools?  What of the Utah high school which recently forced a 16-year-old teen to cover her shoulders at a school dance?  Should the rules enforced at LDS Church buildings and institutions also be required in public institutions?

 

Rachel Bertsche, “High-Schooler Told to Cover Up for Exposing Her Shoulder,” Yahoo.com, January 29, 2015, online at https://www.yahoo.com/parenting/high-schooler-told-to-cover-up-for-exposing-her-109503228597.html  ,  A photo of the teen in her dress is included.
 
On the other hand, how does this apply in France where public law forbids the wearing of the Muslim hijab/niqab by women -- in order to maintain the truly "French" character of the country.  That prohibition has been upheld by the European Court of Human Rights (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28106900).
 
Still from another viewpoint, should Sharia Law be imposed on a secular state?  That is the objective of an Islamic Caliphate, wherever it is installed.

 

 

Good question Robert.

 

It seems to assume that we either allow everything or else must have a state that resembles an Islamic caliphate. There are Catholic theories of the relations of church and state which permits society to protect itself against vice without forcing anybody to be Catholic. A secular state, to be consistent, cannot easily legislate against public indecency. It does have one benefit though. It makes thoughtful people of all religions wonder if there is not a way to have public morality without religious persecution.

 

I think we need to ask ourselves, is religious persecution the inevitable alternative to the secular state? I believe the answer is in the negative. However, I am also thinking I would almost opt for religious persecution if I could escape the reign of vice and corruption of morals, both public and private, which seems to be the inevitable tendency in the consistent secular state as it continually analyzes how its laws have reflected religious beliefs and seeks to disestablish everything with such roots. 

 

Rory

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What this school did was really really dumb.  That dress was perfectly modest.  Sometimes i think schools are too extreme when it comes to dress codes.  Either anything goes and you have girls in school in tube tops and shorty shorts or they get like this where you get turned away because.....who even knows.

 

It's not that hard to just make sure the breasts are covered and the shorts and skirts are long enough to be decent (fingertip length is easy enough) and then ban tank tops during regular school if you want them wearing sleeves.  For formals, i don't think covering the shoulders should be imposed.

I have rather short arms. A fingertip length skirt would be decidedly NOT decent. :D

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What this school did was really really dumb.  That dress was perfectly modest.  Sometimes i think schools are too extreme when it comes to dress codes.  Either anything goes and you have girls in school in tube tops and shorty shorts or they get like this where you get turned away because.....who even knows.

 

It's not that hard to just make sure the breasts are covered and the shorts and skirts are long enough to be decent (fingertip length is easy enough) and then ban tank tops during regular school if you want them wearing sleeves.  For formals, i don't think covering the shoulders should be imposed.  

Also, this may be the last chance a good Mormon girl may even get to wear such fashions before becoming endowed.  It's harmless.

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Good question Robert.

 

It seems to assume that we either allow everything or else must have a state that resembles an Islamic caliphate. There are Catholic theories of the relations of church and state which permits society to protect itself against vice without forcing anybody to be Catholic. A secular state, to be consistent, cannot easily legislate against public indecency. It does have one benefit though. It makes thoughtful people of all religions wonder if there is not a way to have public morality without religious persecution.

 

I think we need to ask ourselves, is religious persecution the inevitable alternative to the secular state? I believe the answer is in the negative. However, I am also thinking I would almost opt for religious persecution if I could escape the reign of vice and corruption of morals, both public and private, which seems to be the inevitable tendency in the consistent secular state as it continually analyzes how its laws have reflected religious beliefs and seeks to disestablish everything with such roots. 

 

Rory

I was raised in California in the 40s & 50s when such questions never came up.  Most communities seemed to understand normal dress and grooming standards without being hectored by someone with a narrow religious point of view.  It may have constituted a "civil religion."  Perhaps you had much the same experience growing up.  Or maybe it all became controversial when the Hippies began to do their "thing."  You know, long hair, bell bottoms, beads, etc.

 

I had Roman Catholic classmates who seemed entirely normal in high school, but I used to wonder about those strangely dressed parochial school students in our town.  Even stranger were the nuns in their habits who taught them.  It was like an alien world, which I carefully avoided.  Only much later did I learn that they were entirely normal people.

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I thought it was the Flappers who ushered in the downfall of Moral Society with their bobbed hair and those way short, below the knee skirts.

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Should religious rules of modesty be imposed in public schools?  What of the Utah high school which recently forced a 16-year-old teen to cover her shoulders at a school dance?  Should the rules enforced at LDS Church buildings and institutions also be required in public institutions?

 

Rachel Bertsche, “High-Schooler Told to Cover Up for Exposing Her Shoulder,” Yahoo.com, January 29, 2015, online at https://www.yahoo.com/parenting/high-schooler-told-to-cover-up-for-exposing-her-109503228597.html  ,  A photo of the teen in her dress is included.

 

On the other hand, how does this apply in France where public law forbids the wearing of the Muslim hijab/niqab by women -- in order to maintain the truly "French" character of the country.  That prohibition has been upheld by the European Court of Human Rights (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28106900).

 

Still from another viewpoint, should Sharia Law be imposed on a secular state?  That is the objective of an Islamic Caliphate, wherever it is installed.

I attended High School in Southern California from 1964-1969. Our totally Gentile High School had dress standards that would have made current LDS teen dance standards look stodgy by comparison. Those hemlines better come only as high as mid-kneecap, and no midriffs showing. Sleeveless blouses are OK, but the blouses better not be too sheer.

And those standards had nothing to do with religion. We were there for education, not titulation. Or so they told us.

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Can't link at the moment but saw the other day that someone posted a picture of a BYU coed's photo wearing a sleeveless gown in the yearbook back in the 50's I believe. And also read in the recent article that the local people that are in that particular school area make up the dress codes. Therefore it very well could reflect church standards as a high concentration that live there are LDS, my brothers in law and sister in law had kids that went to Lone Peak.

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Should religious rules of modesty be imposed in public schools?  What of the Utah high school which recently forced a 16-year-old teen to cover her shoulders at a school dance?  Should the rules enforced at LDS Church buildings and institutions also be required in public institutions.

 
 
Still from another viewpoint, should Sharia Law be imposed on a secular state?  That is the objective of an Islamic Caliphate, wherever it is installed.

 

 

Personally I don't care what people wear other than for warmth, safety, and not scare the public. ;)

 

Not quite.

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In 1970 I taught in Skyline High School. Mini skirts were the rage. I had to teach to the ceiling most of the time. Imagine, right there surrounded by all those repressive Mormons and their dress standards.

Note: Skyline is in SLC .

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I thought it was the Flappers who ushered in the downfall of Moral Society with their bobbed hair and those way short, below the knee skirts.

Yeh, and Ragtime music.

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Yes, the Abbasid Caliphate was a very progressive center of learning and culture.

 

They gathered all of the world's literature in a vast library, sponsored scribal copying of it all, and the production of more advanced thinking.  They allowed Christians and Jews to worship freely, even though Muslims were privileged.  A Jew might even be the Grand Wazir (prime minister) of that Caliphate Empire.  Oriental Jews under that Caliphate were by far the most advanced and intellectual of all Jews.  When Europe finally came out of the Dark Ages, it was that vast store of great literature and learning which caused the Renaissance.  Without the Golden Age of Islam that would not have been possible.

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Ridiculous!  

 

I am however opposed to yoga pants on the general principle that they look hideous on most people.

 

Oh.....but those few they look good on...... ;)

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I have rather short arms. A fingertip length skirt would be decidedly NOT decent. :D

It always makes me laugh. I also have short arms and a long body. We have checked it out and my bum would be obviously visible.

I don't blame this on anyone except the woman who stopped the girl, unless the school instructed her otherwise from the rules. She either didn't understand the rule or made her own rules.

I don't have a problem schools making modesty rules for proms. I am aware of one school changing to more modest standards and getting a lot of heat for it. What wasn't widely known was what was happening at the prom before the standards were set - full exposure of body parts. The administration along with parents chose to make it easier to stop the problems before they happened by increasing modesty.

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I am all for standards or lack there of. I am fine with what ever the school decides. Is this position a little extreme? Probably. I think it is important to realize that this is probably localized. I don't remember any such standards when I went to West Jordan High.

 

We are a long way off from Sharia law.

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Thank you for putting the blame where it belongs. When local schools in Atlanta impose arbitrary and unreasonable dress standards no one blames the Baptist church.

 

I suppose you would have a point, but this isn't the first time a female in Utah was publicly shamed for her attire.

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Should religious rules of modesty be imposed in public schools?  What of the Utah high school which recently forced a 16-year-old teen to cover her shoulders at a school dance?  Should the rules enforced at LDS Church buildings and institutions also be required in public institutions?

 

Rachel Bertsche, “High-Schooler Told to Cover Up for Exposing Her Shoulder,” Yahoo.com, January 29, 2015, online at https://www.yahoo.com/parenting/high-schooler-told-to-cover-up-for-exposing-her-109503228597.html  ,  A photo of the teen in her dress is included.
 
On the other hand, how does this apply in France where public law forbids the wearing of the Muslim hijab/niqab by women -- in order to maintain the truly "French" character of the country.  That prohibition has been upheld by the European Court of Human Rights (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28106900).
 
Still from another viewpoint, should Sharia Law be imposed on a secular state?  That is the objective of an Islamic Caliphate, wherever it is installed.

 

 

Robert, next time would you put a warning (Not Safe For Work = NSFW) on such articles. :crazy:

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I suppose you would have a point, but this isn't the first time a female in Utah was publicly shamed for her attire.

 

It actually happens everywhere-it's not a Utah thing.

 

Washington-

 

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2013/06/teen-turned-away-from-prom-over-cleavage-wants-apology/

 

North Carolina-

 

http://abc11.com/archive/9519716/

 

Ohio-

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2318300/High-school-senior-girls-left-devastated-turned-away-prom-wearing-inappropriate-dresses.html

 

These are just some examples out of many out there.

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Stop complaining! Those school authorities are trying to save us from evil. Here is a prime example of their good work on our behalf:

Magic Hobbit Ring Suspension
 

And the evil miscreant has also been in trouble for bringing in a big book to show for an astronomy lesson -- only the book also had a picture of a pregnant woman!  Horrible.  Just horrible.

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Yes, the Abbasid Caliphate was a very progressive center of learning and culture.

 

They gathered all of the world's literature in a vast library, sponsored scribal copying of it all, and the production of more advanced thinking.  They allowed Christians and Jews to worship freely, even though Muslims were privileged.  A Jew might even be the Grand Wazir (prime minister) of that Caliphate Empire.  Oriental Jews under that Caliphate were by far the most advanced and intellectual of all Jews.  When Europe finally came out of the Dark Ages, it was that vast store of great literature and learning which caused the Renaissance.  Without the Golden Age of Islam that would not have been possible.

The Irish were also a large part of storing literature during the dark ages

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