Scott Lloyd Posted January 24, 2015 Share Posted January 24, 2015 Troubling development with the California Supreme Court forbidding the state's judges from affiliation with the Boy Scouts of America because of the BSA's policies with regard to admitting gays as leaders. How long before the justices there train their sights on the Church of Jesus Christ for precisely the same reason and thus effectively infringe on religious liberty for the sake of political correctness. Daniel Peterson in this blog post makes a case that such a thing is not too far off considering current trends. 1 Link to comment
carbon dioxide Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 Troubling development with the California Supreme Court forbidding the state's judges from affiliation with the Boy Scouts of America because of the BSA's policies with regard to admitting gays as leaders. How long before the justices there train their sights on the Church of Jesus Christ for precisely the same reason and thus effectively infringe on religious liberty for the sake of political correctness. Daniel Peterson in this blog post makes a case that such a thing is not too far off considering current trends.Anything is possible. After all it is said that at some point in the future the Constitution will hang by a thread. As long as we have a working Bill of Rights, we should not fear to much. Hope for the best but prepare for the worst which means also get some guns and ammo. Link to comment
The Nehor Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 I doubt it will extend to LDS and other religious groups formally. Even if the California Supreme Court was dumb enough to try to enforce it it would be laughed out of the court room at the Supreme Court for violation of the First Amendment. The BSA is in a strange limbo because it is affiliated with lots of religious groups but is not a religious group itself. 2 Link to comment
Avatar4321 Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 Of course they will come after us. That's the point. Link to comment
Robert F. Smith Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 I doubt it will extend to LDS and other religious groups formally. Even if the California Supreme Court was dumb enough to try to enforce it it would be laughed out of the court room at the Supreme Court for violation of the First Amendment. The BSA is in a strange limbo because it is affiliated with lots of religious groups but is not a religious group itself.Correct, Nehor. It is mixing apples and oranges to confuse religious organizations with non-religious organizations. Indeed, if the BSA were to adopt certain policies of tolerance, it is likely that the LDS Church would simply pull out of the BSA entirely and form its own boys organization. The paranoid rantings of the religious right (when they are not fully engaged in a "hate the Mormons" campaign) are mostly based on fantasy. 1 Link to comment
Crypto Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 This strikes me as a way of eliminating dissenting judicial opinion that may act as a balance against whatever the prevailing legislative opinions are.It'll help clear the ruling bench of any 'traditionalist' leanings typically associated with Boy Scouts. There is danger in this type of thinking, it seems to lend towards a slippery slope. In other words, if you don't support the right groups and opinions you aren't allowed to be involved in law. 2 Link to comment
Popular Post Bobbieaware Posted January 25, 2015 Popular Post Share Posted January 25, 2015 (edited) Correct, Nehor. It is mixing apples and oranges to confuse religious organizations with non-religious organizations. Indeed, if the BSA were to adopt certain policies of tolerance, it is likely that the LDS Church would simply pull out of the BSA entirely and form its own boys organization.The paranoid rantings of the religious right (when they are not fully engaged in a "hate the Mormons" campaign) are mostly based on fantasy.Your post brings to mind the infamous comment the fatuous Governor Thomas Ford made to Dan Jones just prior to the assassinations of Joseph and Hyrum Smith, "You are unnecessarily alarmed for your friends safety sir. The people are not that cruel." I've always assumed the reason why Ford was so clueless is because he didn't believe in the existence the devil. Or if he did believe there was a devil, he foolishly presumed the devil wasn't the completely evil and rotten antithesis of God and all things righteous that he really is. In light of the following prophecy from the Book of Mormon, I'm not inclined to be one of those who lets his guard down by blithely presuming the devil and his earthly minions aren't fully prepared to use every trick in the book to destroy freedom, righteousness and the Latter-day Saints. 13 And it came to pass that I beheld that the great mother of abominations did gather together multitudes upon the face of all the earth, among all the nations of the Gentiles, to fight against the Lamb of God. 1 Nephi 14 Edited January 25, 2015 by Bobbieaware 5 Link to comment
Popular Post ERayR Posted January 25, 2015 Popular Post Share Posted January 25, 2015 Correct, Nehor. It is mixing apples and oranges to confuse religious organizations with non-religious organizations. Indeed, if the BSA were to adopt certain policies of tolerance, it is likely that the LDS Church would simply pull out of the BSA entirely and form its own boys organization. The paranoid rantings of the religious right (when they are not fully engaged in a "hate the Mormons" campaign) are mostly based on fantasy. Eat drink and be merry. 5 Link to comment
Popular Post california boy Posted January 25, 2015 Popular Post Share Posted January 25, 2015 Of course they will come after us. That's the point.I love how Mormons had no problem doing all they could to take away the right to marry from gays, and then can so easily play the victim over something that hasn't even happened to them. It is kinda scary having your civil rights up for grabs by popular support isn't it. Fortunately for both groups, the constitution protects those rights regardless of popular support. The irony is further brought to light by the fact that in Utah someone can be fired from their job or be discriminated against in their housing simply for being gay. Yet now Mormons are concerned they can be fired from being a judge simply because they are Mormon? Perhaps you should be working towards correcting other discriminations if you want others supporting your right to work as well. 7 Link to comment
rodheadlee Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 (edited) nevermind Edited January 25, 2015 by rodheadlee Link to comment
Crypto Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 I love how Mormons had no problem doing all they could to take away the right to marry from gays, and then can so easily play the victim over something that hasn't even happened to them. It is kinda scary having your civil rights up for grabs by popular support isn't it. Fortunately for both groups, the constitution protects those rights regardless of popular support. The irony is further brought to light by the fact that in Utah someone can be fired from their job or be discriminated against in their housing simply for being gay. Yet now Mormons are concerned they can be fired from being a judge simply because they are Mormon? Perhaps you should be working towards correcting other discrimination if you want others supporting your right to work as well. I believe we might have a little bit of a disagreement on what civil rights are. I believe the bill of rights as currently amended is in a fair state. What essentially boils down to redistribution subsidies, inheritance laws, and the like is not civil rights. Making behavior and lifestyle illegal with capital punishment is different than what is happening.I can't comment on Utah, but i'm pretty sure California and California Mormons haven't pushed legislation which bar dissenting opinions from acting in government. Also, here is a list of Mormons who have done good things in the realm of Civil Rights:http://lds.net/blog/faith/people/mormon-civil-rights-leaders/#.VMUjLUfF-So 1 Link to comment
The Nehor Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 Eat drink and be merry. Preferable to rampant paranoia. I don't live in California and even if I did my influence on this would approach zero unless I went into politics (and probably lose my soul) or dedicate my life to fighting this. I don't think this will happen any time soon and even if it does my worrying will do nothing about it. There are things I can do something about so I will worry about those. Some people think watching for the signs of the times also involves doing their best impression of Chicken Little. Your post brings to mind the infamous comment the fatuous Governor Thomas Ford made to Dan Jones just prior to the assassinations of Joseph and Hyrum Smith, "You are unnecessarily alarmed for your friends safety sir. The people are not that cruel." I've always assumed the reason why Ford was so clueless is because he didn't believe in the existence the devil. Or if he did believe there was a devil, he foolishly presumed the devil wasn't the completely evil and rotten antithesis of God and all things righteous that he really is.In light of the following prophecy from the Book of Mormon, I'm not inclined to be one of those who lets his guard down by blithely presuming the devil and his earthly minions aren't fully prepared to use every trick in the book to destroy freedom, righteousness and the Latter-day Saints.13 And it came to pass that I beheld that the great mother of abominations did gather together multitudes upon the face of all the earth, among all the nations of the Gentiles, to fight against the Lamb of God. 1 Nephi 14 I personally do not think Ford was that naive. I suspect he wanted Joseph dead in a way he could say "oopsie" about afterwards and not be culpable. To be fair Joseph and the Mormons were a big problem for the state. Not necessarily for what they did but for what their enemies did. To be fair that does not justify leaving men to die at the hands of mob violence. Then again we have state governors today bragging about how many executions have taken place in their state so I am not sure we have improved. 1 Link to comment
Stone holm Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 Actually, this has been discussed by the bar of several States about belonging to groups which discriminate against minorities. The problem is whether the judge violates the judicial oath in doing so. When the Salt Lake Council kaboshed the first compromise, they set the stage for this. As to the question about the Church, the answer is no. The BSA is not a religious Organization. Judges are not allowed to belong to the KKK either. 3 Link to comment
canard78 Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 Anything is possible. After all it is said that at some point in the future the Constitution will hang by a thread. As long as we have a working Bill of Rights, we should not fear to much. Hope for the best but prepare for the worst which means also get some guns and ammo.Get some guns and ammo???Face palm icon... 1 Link to comment
thesometimesaint Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 Get some guns and ammo???Face palm icon... That's to protect the food storage we don't have. Link to comment
The Nehor Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 Get some guns and ammo???Face palm icon... It amazes me how many people imagine that when society collapses they can survive on hunting and foraging by running out into the hills. Do they really think that when push comes to shove that the people in the cities and towns are just going to quietly starve to death instead of doing the same thing to try to survive? There isn't enough game out there. Sorry to burst their little bubbles. Link to comment
mfbukowski Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 It amazes me how many people imagine that when society collapses they can survive on hunting and foraging by running out into the hills. Do they really think that when push comes to shove that the people in the cities and towns are just going to quietly starve to death instead of doing the same thing to try to survive? There isn't enough game out there. Sorry to burst their little bubbles.There is a huge contradiction here.So no one should prepare because everyone else is also, so humanity will starve.Huh? Link to comment
longview Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 I doubt it will extend to LDS and other religious groups formally. Even if the California Supreme Court was dumb enough to try to enforce it it would be laughed out of the court room at the Supreme Court for violation of the First Amendment. The BSA is in a strange limbo because it is affiliated with lots of religious groups but is not a religious group itself.this is nothing to be complacent about . . . remember what happened at the (D) National Convention? I think it was during the Clinton era . . . a group of boy scouts were bringing the US flag up to the podium for the usual pledge of allegiance . . . a number of the delegates actually spit on them as they passed by! This is one of many showing a trend to a worsening situation . . . we read of more and more of government agencies and private entities withdrawing facilities and support for boy scout jamborees, training, etc . . . Link to comment
mfbukowski Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 Correct, Nehor. It is mixing apples and oranges to confuse religious organizations with non-religious organizations. Indeed, if the BSA were to adopt certain policies of tolerance, it is likely that the LDS Church would simply pull out of the BSA entirely and form its own boys organization. The paranoid rantings of the religious right (when they are not fully engaged in a "hate the Mormons" campaign) are mostly based on fantasy.The answer for us may be to just drop out of BSA and do the program ourselves as a religious organization. 1 Link to comment
mfbukowski Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 It amazes me how many people imagine that when society collapses they can survive on hunting and foraging by running out into the hills. Do they really think that when push comes to shove that the people in the cities and towns are just going to quietly starve to death instead of doing the same thing to try to survive? There isn't enough game out there. Sorry to burst their little bubbles.Well cannibalism always works. 1 Link to comment
USU78 Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 Correct, Nehor. It is mixing apples and oranges to confuse religious organizations with non-religious organizations. Indeed, if the BSA were to adopt certain policies of tolerance, it is likely that the LDS Church would simply pull out of the BSA entirely and form its own boys organization. The paranoid rantings of the religious right (when they are not fully engaged in a "hate the Mormons" campaign) are mostly based on fantasy. A Canadian Bar Association is working hard towards just such a "fantastic" end: http://www.cardus.ca/blog/2015/01/christian-lawyers-and-doctors-need-not-apply A Canadian college with its own law school requires its students to abide by a code of conduct including a sexual component prohibiting all sex outside marriage between a man and a women, and the bar association won't let its law school grads sit for the bar exam or practice law. Yeah. It's paranoid. Yeah. It's rantings. 2 Link to comment
Rob Osborn Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 And while everyone was worried about a communistic conspiracy, the devil moved right in to establish wickedness as being morally correct. Link to comment
tonie Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 A Canadian Bar Association is working hard towards just such a "fantastic" end: http://www.cardus.ca/blog/2015/01/christian-lawyers-and-doctors-need-not-apply A Canadian college with its own law school requires its students to abide by a code of conduct including a sexual component prohibiting all sex outside marriage between a man and a women, and the bar association won't let its law school grads sit for the bar exam or practice law. Yeah. It's paranoid. Yeah. It's rantings. It is and you know it. Perhaps you can show why the sky is falling because Canada does something? The US and Canada has distinctly different legal standards and such; given your education, you likely should know this. Link to comment
tonie Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 (edited) Troubling development with the California Supreme Court forbidding the state's judges from affiliation with the Boy Scouts of America because of the BSA's policies with regard to admitting gays as leaders. How long before the justices there train their sights on the Church of Jesus Christ for precisely the same reason and thus effectively infringe on religious liberty for the sake of political correctness. Daniel Peterson in this blog post makes a case that such a thing is not too far off considering current trends. What is troubling linking to a for-profit blog. What is also troubling, that niether David French nor Peterson make any attempt to discuss the legal recourse the University has or the Judges; each just wishes to perpetuate fear and claim the sky is falling. Their concerns would have credibility if there was not legal recourse for a University in terms of Accredidation. Their concerns would have credibility if the United States Constitution didn't protect "Freedom of Association". Sadly, one can not perpetuate fear and assuage conerns at the same time...unfortunately perpetuating fear usually wins out. Edited January 25, 2015 by tonie Link to comment
california boy Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 I believe we might have a little bit of a disagreement on what civil rights are. I believe the bill of rights as currently amended is in a fair state. What essentially boils down to redistribution subsidies, inheritance laws, and the like is not civil rights. Making behavior and lifestyle illegal with capital punishment is different than what is happening.I can't comment on Utah, but i'm pretty sure California and California Mormons haven't pushed legislation which bar dissenting opinions from acting in government. Also, here is a list of Mormons who have done good things in the realm of Civil Rights:http://lds.net/blog/faith/people/mormon-civil-rights-leaders/#.VMUjLUfF-So I suppose you don't want to comment on Prop 8. You know, that proposition taken over by the Mormons to ensure gay couples were denied their constitutional right to marry. Remember this constitutional right had just been ruled on by the Supreme Court of California which prompted Prop 8. But the Mormons were determined to take away that right the courts had upheld. And as you know, Prop 8 and every other law banning gay marriage was overturned by those same legal arguments not just once, but in every court in this country. There is no disagreement from a legal standpoint that gay marriage is a civil right guaranteed by the constitution. That has become abundantly clear. Do you think it would have been a good idea to look at the proposition from a legal right point of view before plunging into taking away those legal rights? Is there not a legal department in the church that should have been consulted? Is not Dallin Oaks some wiz lawyer that should know basic rights guaranteed by even minorities by the constitution? You know, I thought in 1978 that the church was finally putting its discriminating past behind itself. This ugly chapter in history would be a thing of the past. But it seems like the leaders were unwilling to let go of their discrimination policies. They just moved it to another group. Why isn't the church distancing itself from an organization that discriminates? Why does the church want to support BSA's discriminating policy? Why isn't their outrage amongst members against this discrimination? The truth is, by most accounts, the church was a leading supporter of this discrimination policy. Many members still love discriminating against gays. I have great sorrow that the church I love has taken a path of preaching a gospel of discrimination and prejudice. It has become a church world wide known for being exclusionary and fighting against the very gospel that Christ taught. I sometimes wonder why the leaders ever bothered praying that blacks could receive priesthood blessings. Obviously, they still think it is ok to discriminate and to support and be part of organizations that do so. 3 Link to comment
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