What Did The Boys Do On The Boat That Was So Awful?

[USU78]

After the Lehites boarded the new ship and began their transoceanic journey, this happens:

 

1 Nephi 18: 9 And after we had been driven forth before the wind for the space of many days, behold, my brethren and the sons of Ishmael and also their wives began to make themselves merry, insomuch that they began to dance, and to sing, and to speak with much rudeness, yea, even that they did forget by what power they had been brought thither; yea, they were lifted up unto exceeding rudeness.

 

So why was this such an awful thing.  Isn't a celebration in order when one has gotten onto a boat nobody thought could be built and is well on his way to his destination?

 

My wife and I were talking after reading in Isaiah last night, looking at the parallels between Cyrus and Moses, and it occurred to us that the parallels between Nephi and Moses are also pretty striking.

 

Moses and the people see the Egyptians [Ex 14:10].  The people cry out and complain to Moses [Ex 14:10-12].  Moses tells them to keep silent and stop complaining and watch how G-d solves their little problem of impending annihilation [Ex 14: 13-14]. G-d then speaks to Moses, giving him instructions on how he is to divide the Red Sea and coax the people across [Ex 14:15-18].  The people cross the Red Sea on dry ground [Ex 14:22].  Their enemies are drowned in the deep [Ex 14: 26-28].  The people believe in G-d and His prophet [Ex 14: 31].  Whereupon the people are led in rejoicing, dancing, spiking the ball, taunting the Egyptians, and engaging in some pretty rude behavior overall [Ex 15: 1-22].

 

Nephi led his people across the ocean, and the people complained pretty bitterly at his reminder to them of their need to avoid offending G-d, especially in the middle of the crossing of the water, going so far as to tie the prophet up [1 Nephi 18: 10-11].  Thereupon the Liahona ceased working and they could no longer direct their journey across the ocean [1 Nephi 18: 12-13], and the winds turned contrary, and the sea became so rough they feared they would sink [1 Nephi 18: 13-15].  But Nephi spent all this time praying [1 Nephi 18: 16], and both Lehi and Ishmael and the other Lehite brothers tried to work some magic with Laman and Lemuel and the Ishmaelite boys to convince them to respect the prophet and let him go [1 Nephi 18: 17-19].  Only the near-foundering of the ship could work to bring the elder Lehite and Ishmaelite brothers around, and they let Nephi go, he prayed to G-d at their insistence, and G-d calmed the seas, tamed the winds, and the people could then resume their journey [1 Nephi 18: 20-22].

 

So, both Moses and Nephi saw danger for the people; the people completely misread the situation; they complain to the prophet and don't think to ask G-d for direction in their danger; the Prophet prays on behalf of the people; and the people are spared and permitted to continue on their journey to the new land.

 

The reason, we came to think, that Nephi feared for the little troup is that they were behaving just as the Israelites did at "Pi-hahiroth, between Migdol and the sea, over against Baal-zephon."  That behavior nearly cost them their nationhood and their lives.  But for the intervention of the prophet in exercizing authority over the waters at G-d's direction, they would be lost, and very nearly were.

 

Of course, the lessons of this authority to tame and manipulate the powers of destruction took with neither the elder Lehite brothers nor the Israelites:  The Israelites complained again and challenged Moses at Marah [Ex 15: 22-26] and the boys again threatened Nephi right after the crossing, after Lehi's final words and death [2 Nephi 4: 13-14].

 

So . . . it is not so much the celebration as its timing that seems to be the problem.  The elder Lehites and Ishmaelites spiked the ball before crossing the goal line, which might have lost them the game, but for the prophet's and G-d's intervention.  The time for celebration is after you have made it through the trial by water and reached the other side, and your enemies are already vanquished.  Moses and Miriam were able to keep the people in line, as the fear of Pharaoh was still a great motivator.  The elder Lehites and the Ishmaelites had no such fear, though they should have, as their lives were very much in jeopardy throughout the voyage.

 

Thoughts?

[pogi]

So why was this such an awful thing.  Isn't a celebration in order when one has gotten onto a boat nobody thought could be built and is well on his way to his destination?

 

 

I don't think it is the celebration that was awful. 

 

even that they did forget by what power they had been brought thither;

 

 

I think that is the awful part.  They did not rejoice in the power of God and his mercies in directing them to build the ship.  They rejoiced in their own strength in building it.  I think they were taking credit for the ship and thought that they no longer needed God.  They ridiculed and mocked Nephi for even trying to build the ship, and now that it is built, instead of being humble and acknowledging their faithlessness, they are "exceedingly" rude to Nephi and forget God...again!

[Buckeye]

Rude lamanites dancing and celebrating too early? So, pretty much this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZU_Dk6aRfUQ

Edited January 6, 2015 by Buckeye

[Uncle Dale]

After the Lehites boarded the new ship and began their transoceanic journey, this happens...

 

So why was this such an awful thing...

 

Thoughts?

 

Obviously you have not read the Order of Conduct, as posted in

the lobby of the Kanesville Log Tabernacle, brother.

 

Rule no. 22 plainly states: "Gentlemen shall lead off with the right foot,

while their partners in dancing shall first move the left foot..."

 

The backsliding Lehite bucks stuck out their left feet when the

Cougar Schottische began -- the disobedient fools!

 

But, to make matters far worse:

 

Rule no. 101: "No merry-making shall be conducted by a brass band

or other instrument-players, who have not, first of all, paid a full tithe

and quartered their pigs and chickens in accord with the Bishop's counsel."

 

And Laman hadn't filed a tithing statement since the 15th year of the

reign of King Zedekiah!

 

Laman and Lemuel (those sons of perdition!) I can understand -- but the

wives of the poor sons of Ishmael? Heaven forbid! Scandalous!

 

UD

[rodheadlee]

You never celebrate when you start a voyage, unless you cross the equator, you celebrate when you reach your destination. Same as trucking, you never kill time until you reach your destination. Why tempt God?

[mfbukowski]

I don't think it is the celebration that was awful. 

 

 

I think that is the awful part.  They did not rejoice in the power of God and his mercies in directing them to build the ship.  They rejoiced in their own strength in building it.  I think they were taking credit for the ship and thought that they no longer needed God.  They ridiculed and mocked Nephi for even trying to build the ship, and now that it is built, instead of being humble and acknowledging their faithlessness, they are "exceedingly" rude to Nephi and forget God...again!

Blake Ostler makes the point that Adam and Eve's transgression was not eating the fruit- after all they basically had no choice, and at least Eve understood it was the only way the Plan could come about.

 

Ostler makes the case that the sin was when they decided to hide from God because they were naked.

 

THAT was the sin- instead of facing God truthfully, they turned away from Him.  That was the beginning of pride right there- enmity for God.  All sin is at its base, pride, putting oneself above His will for us.

[Glenn101]

   Nephi gives us very little to go on as to the nature of the "rudeness" that his brothers and the children of Ishmael got caught up in to the point that Nephi felt he needed to reprove them. I am pretty much of the opinion that the "exceeding rudeness" was on the order of vulgarity and that the dancing may have been something of the sort that caused John the Baptist to lose his head. I don't really know.

   But it seems that the act of tying up Nephi, who had been chosen by God to lead this small but maybe too merry band ain addition to merry making which Nephi felt was way out of line was the final straw.

 

Of course, I could be wrong. I was wrong once last year. From January 1st until December 31st, so, it is possible that my error continues.

 

Glenn

[USU78]

Blake Ostler makes the point that Adam and Eve's transgression was not eating the fruit- after all they basically had no choice, and at least Eve understood it was the only way the Plan could come about.

 

Ostler makes the case that the sin was when they decided to hide from God because they were naked.

 

THAT was the sin- instead of facing God truthfully, they turned away from Him.  That was the beginning of pride right there- enmity for God.  All sin is at its base, pride, putting oneself above His will for us.

 

Good point.  To whom were the older Lehite boys and the Ishmaelite boys and their wives being rude prior to Nephi's intervention?

 

It's one thing to be rude to one's fellows . . . quite another to be rude to G-d.  Which is why He said,

 

D&C 59:21 And in nothing doth man offend God, or against none is his wrath kindled, save those who confess not his hand in all things, and obey not his commandments.

[mfbukowski]

D&C 59:21 And in nothing doth man offend God, or against none is his wrath kindled, save those who confess not his hand in all things, and obey not his commandments.

Which of course appears to be exactly what they were doing, and you have already pointed out.

 

1 Nephi 18: 9 And after we had been driven forth before the wind for the space of many days, behold, my brethren and the sons of Ishmael and also their wives began to make themselves merry, insomuch that they began to dance, and to sing, and to speak with much rudeness, yea, even that they did forget by what power they had been brought thither; yea, they were lifted up unto exceeding rudeness.

 

[Ahab]

Would you like the Baba Wawa version or the Elmer Fudd version.

Basically they weh just bewin wewey wude!

[Michael Sanders]

After the Lehites boarded the new ship and began their transoceanic journey, this happens: So why was this such an awful thing.  Isn't a celebration in order when one has gotten onto a boat nobody thought could be built and is well on his way to his destination?

 

My wife and I were talking after reading in Isaiah last night, looking at the parallels between Cyrus and Moses, and it occurred to us that the parallels between Nephi and Moses are also pretty striking.

 

 So . . . it is not so much the celebration as its timing that seems to be the problem.  The elder Lehites and Ishmaelites spiked the ball before crossing the goal line, which might have lost them the game, but for the prophet's and G-d's intervention.  The time for celebration is after you have made it through the trial by water and reached the other side, and your enemies are already vanquished.  Moses and Miriam were able to keep the people in line, as the fear of Pharaoh was still a great motivator.  The elder Lehites and the Ishmaelites had no such fear, though they should have, as their lives were very much in jeopardy throughout the voyage. Thoughts?

Hi USU78,

I think you're on the right track here identifying "parallels between Nephi and Moses" and that would put you in good company. The Exodus or Wilderness Motif (recurring pattern in literary works) has long since been identified by Book of Mormon scholars and along with suggestions that Nephi consciously incorporated this literary device into his record. Avraham Gileadi in his "The Last Days: Types and Shadows from the Bible and the Book of Mormon" has a section on the "Journeying Narratives" which he suggests the literary device not only ties the Israelite Exodus and Lehite wilderness journey together - but he expects will be a pattern fulfilled in the last days. The wilderness journey and deliverance theme to be played out again according to Isaiah.

He compares the indiscretion on the ship to the golden calf incident and equates "exceeding rudeness" to an "orgy". This is further suggested by Terrence Szink: http://stepbystep.alancminer.com/1_ne_18

"According to Terrence Szink, quite probably, Nephi, the author of this section, consciously wrote his account of the wilderness journey in a way that would remind the reader of the Exodus of the children of Israel from Egypt. . . . Nephi's description of partying in 1 Nephi 18:9 ("They began to dance, and to sing . . . with much rudeness") suggests a comparison to the incident with the golden calf during the Exodus (And it came to pass, as soon as Moses came nigh unto the camp, that he saw the calf, and the dancing. . . . Moses saw that the people were naked--Exodus 32:4-6; 18-19, 25). The singing, dancing, and nakedness before the golden calf were apparently part of ritual connected with this idol. . . . Is Nephi's mention of "much rudeness" and "exceeding rudeness" comparable to Moses' seeing that "the people were naked"? Probably. The reader should additionally note that in both the Bible and the Book of Mormon, the prayer of an individual was what saved the people, who were almost destroyed by a justifiably angry God. Certainly this connection could not have been a product of Joseph Smith's writing. The parallels to Exodus occur at dozens of places throughout the Book of Mormon record. No hasty copying of the Bible could have produced such complex similarities, not to mention the differences that remain. [Terrence L. Szink, "Nephi and the Exodus," in Rediscovering the Book of Mormon, p. 48-49] [see also Terrence L. Szink, "To a Land of Promise," in Studies in Scripture: Book of Mormon, Part 1, pp. 69-70]

So it seems to be more than just timing that brought down the heavenly displeasure.

Mike Sanders

Book of Mormon Believer

Independence, MO

[longview]

Would you like the Baba Wawa version or the Elmer Fudd version.

Basically they weh just bewin wewey wude!

 

Rude speech leads to contention leads to enmity against God.  As a consequence, they disrespected the priesthood leadership of Father Lehi.  When Nephi spoke up in warning them, they were angry and brutally tied him up.  Which led to a greater severity of the storm.