What Do You Make Of Nde’S?

[djones]

I’m curious what other Latter Day Saints make of Near Death Experiences? I’m fascinated by them and read them frequently. Sites such as www.nderf.org are filled with them and it keeps growing. As members of the church we believe that in the mouth of 2-3 witnesses, truthful principles are better relayed through the Holy Ghost. Ok, so what happens when you have 2-3 thousand witnesses?

 

I think it’s wonderful that so many have come out and shared their experiences. But here are the issues I have. These thousands of witnesses have a very common message that they bring back that does NOT match up with what we believe to be revealed truth. Among others the common themes I see are:

 

•  It doesn’t matter what religion you belong to. Just learn to love everyone

• There is no right or wrong and no such thing as sin. Just experiences to learn from

• Everyone is instantly forgiven no matter what you did on earth

• There is no devil or hell. It’s a man made idea. (There are some NDE’s of Hell but they are VERY rare. Almost universally NDE’ers have a wonderful experience. Even attempted suicides and people who lived a horrible life whom you would “think” would be going to hell speak of going to paradise instead)

• There are several reports of the life review where people do get to feel the pain they caused in others lives by their bad choices. But then they are instantly forgiven and just asked what they learned from it and that seems to be the end of it. No consequences.

 

To sum it all up, it seems that it’s the whole “God will beat you with a few stripes” mentality and in the end everyone is saved.

 

One theory I have is that none of these NDE’ers stick around long enough to find out what happens next. Perhaps they are only experiencing the part that Alma talks about where everyone returns briefly to the God that gave them life but they never experience the partial judgment part or the spirit prison part.

 

Thoughts??

Edited November 26, 2014 by djones

[Robert F. Smith]

 

......................................................................................................

These thousands of witnesses have a very common message that they bring back that does NOT match up with what we believe to be revealed truth. Among others the common themes I see are:

•  It doesn’t matter what religion you belong to. Just learn to love everyone

• There is no right or wrong and no such thing as sin. Just experiences to learn from

• Everyone is instantly forgiven no matter what you did on earth

• There is no devil or hell. It’s a man made idea. (There are some NDE’s of Hell but they are VERY rare. Almost universally NDE’ers have a wonderful experience. Even attempted suicides and people who lived a horrible life whom you would “think” would be going to hell speak of going to paradise instead)

• There are several reports of the life review where people do get to feel the pain they caused in others lives by their bad choices. But then they are instantly forgiven and just asked what they learned from it and that seems to be the end of it. No consequences.

.........................................................................  

I don't believe that your list is adequate.  You need to read (or reread) the granddaddy of all NDE books, George C. Ritchie (psychiatrist) and Elizabeth Sherill, Return from Tomorrow (many editions).  It is filled with spirits who remain in agony here, though invisible to ordinary eyes.  Also you do not seem to be aware of the Menninger Foundation studies of NDEs.

 

It is also not so much a matter of everything being forgiven (no matter what) as that there are three glories, and only the most extreme cases are denied entry into the Telestial glory, which consists of those who refused the gospel and testimony of Christ here or hereafter, who were liars, sorcerers, adulterers, whoremongers, etc., and who will have to be purged for a time (D&C 76:81-86,98-112).  Apart from that detail, LDS theology is universalist in application of the saving power of the Atonement, which can be applied by proxy to all who ever lived on the Earth.

[PtolemyGlenn]

Alot of NDE seem to be a tool usex by the devil to make people think they can live their own life without God and Jesus and still goto Heaven. That its being a good person and not the blood of Jesus that is important.

Salvation by proxy is not biblical. Each person has to make their choice on their own. No one else can sace you once you are dead. You made your choice while alive whether you wanted to follow God or not.

Edited November 26, 2014 by PtolemyGlenn

[Derl Sanderson]

You might find Kevin Christensen's paper interesting:

 

http//:publications.maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/fullscreen/?pub=1382&index=2

 

(Don't know why I couldn't past the URL - I had to key it in - how do you like my excellent keyboarding skills?  )

[Lost in Ohio]

Salvation itself does not occur as a result of proxy work on behalf of the dead nor does the performing of ordinances necessary for salvation, like baptism, on behalf of the dead supersede the agency of those  on behalf of whom the  proxy work was done.  The choice remains their's. 

 

Salvation only comes through faith in Jesus Christ.  The ability to perform  necessary ordinances on behalf of the dead is a beautiful doctrine of our Father in Heaven that extends the opportunity for salvation to the millions of his children who lived on the earth without ever having the opportunity to accept the message of Christ.  It it remains for them to accept Christ and the work that was done for them.

 

You may disagree with the doctrine, but it cannot be implied that performing proxy work for the dead supersedes  the agency of those for whom it is done or that it ensures salvation. 

 

The ability to make the choice to follow Christ while alive has to include the opportunity to have heard the message and accept or reject it.  The idea that a loving God consigns millions to the flames who never had the choice in mortality isn't biblical either.  

Edited November 26, 2014 by Lost in Ohio

[Rock_N_Roll]

My Stake President, Brent Topp, wrote an interesting book on this subject.  Beyond Deaths Door. 

[Robert F. Smith]

My Stake President, Brent Topp, wrote an interesting book on this subject.  Beyond Deaths Door. 

Isn't he the current Dean of Religious Education at BYU?

[Robert F. Smith]

..............................................................

Salvation by proxy is not biblical. Each person has to make their choice on their own. No one else can sace you once you are dead. You made your choice while alive whether you wanted to follow God or not.

As evidence that they did not invent the practice themselves, Mormons have frequently cited Paul’s brief comment in I Corinthians 15:29.  Paul there correctly assumes that his contemporaries in Corinth understand the comment, though he states neither approval nor disapproval of the practice – a practice attested elsewhere in later patristic literature (Tertullian, Against Marcion, 10; Epiphanius, Against Heresies, 28 §6).  Paul is, after all, using the rite merely as an argument about resurrection of the dead.  The finest European evangelical scholar, the late Herman Ridderbos, finds the passage too obscure to decide what it might mean, but the phrasing and style surely call to mind II Maccabees 12:44-46, part of the Roman Catholic canon – which I quote here from the Jerusalem Bible:

 

For if he had not expected the fallen to rise again it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead, whereas if he had in view the splendid recompense reserved for those who make a pious end, the thought was holy and devout.  This was why he had this atonement sacrifice offered for the dead, so that they might be released from their sin (cf. II Maccabees 7:9,14, 12:40-43, 15:12-16)   

 

Indeed, the late James Barr goes so far as to assert that, in discussing proxy baptism in I Corinthians 15:29, Paul was referring directly to II Maccabees 12.  Of course, the notion of vicarious or proxy expiation of sin is an accepted commonplace in the Judeo-Christian tradition, and is certainly not at issue, and intercession of the Saints well accepted in Othrodox and Roman Catholic tradition.  However, the means in the Maccabean source (in the Apocrypha) was a Temple offering, a standard mode of expiation for living Israelites – if merely a type of the atonement to be made by Jesus.

 

Can the saints intercede?  Is merit transferrable?  Does the merit of Jesus transfer?  Is unmerited suffering redemptive?  Is vicarious expiation of sin possible according to Scripture?  On one side we apparently have Exodus 20:5, Deuteronomy 5:9, Jeremiah 31:29, and Ezekiel 14:14,20, 18:2, while on the other side we have Genesis 6:18, 12:1-5, 18:22-23, and I Corinthians 15:29 (cf. Deut 24:16, II Kings 14:6, Isaiah 42:1, 52:13 - 53:12, II Maccabees 12:45).  Are these scriptures in synch?  Or do we have an intratextual/ intertextual dispute here?

 

Mormons accept the standard exegesis of New Testament texts on the descent of Jesus to Hades, from the time of his death until his resurrection, and his preaching to the spirits of the dead in Hades/ She’ol.  The early Christians took the same view (as evidenced by the Apostles Creed and certain variant readings in I Peter, in turn based on direct knowledge of the book of I Enoch, which was  then part of the Jewish-Christian Canon).  Mormons rightly ask, “Why the preaching, if it is not efficacious toward acceptance of the Word by the dead”?  Finally, from Romans 6:3-4,13, Titus 3:5, Colossians 2:11-13, Ephesians 4:22, etc., we can conclude that baptism in water is equivalent to circumcision, as well as to being brought forth (reborn or resurrected) free from sin, after being buried in death with Jesus (cf. Psalm 42:8, Galatians 3:27, I Corinthians 6:11).

 

Mormons simply employ vicarious expiation of sin by the authority of the Holy Priesthood of God, but always conditional on the acceptance of those holy rites by imprisoned spirits of the dead.

[halconero]

Salvation by proxy is not biblical. Each person has to make their choice on their own. No one else can sace you once you are dead. You made your choice while alive whether you wanted to follow God or not.

 

1) According to Isaiah 53 Jesus stood as proxy for his people. Christianity is based around the belief in proxy salvation in and through the Atonement of Christ

 

2) Why would Jesus go preach to the imprisoned Spirits after death if there was no hope of salvation?

[The Nehor]

I don't take NDEs seriously. They seem in general to confirm the faith of the believer whether agnostic or whatever. I am not convinced the spirit left the body at all.

[strappinglad]

There is a subset of NDEs that have medical documentation of death ,at least as far as modern medicine can ascertain. Post revival interviews confirm that the person was able to see and hear all the efforts to revive him/her. The person claims to have see all this as they floated near the ceiling. Having been under general anesthetic a few times ,I find it was simply a time jump, no seeing ,hearing, dreaming ,nothing.

Now my father underwent surgery in which the anesthetic wore off but the paralytic didn't. He could hear everything in the operating room and could feel the knife cut him but he saw nothing as his eyes were taped closed and none if this happened as he floated near the ceiling. Imagine the feeling!!

Edited November 27, 2014 by strappinglad

[Calm]

I left my body once, it was a hot and humid night, I spent a good deal of it tossing and turning trying to get comfortable with only a sheet over me. Eventually I was able to relax and so just laid there waiting to sleep, but instead I was rising off of my bed, my legs were lighter and were lifting faster while my arms and head fought the disconnection. It was finally successful and I lifted up to the ceiling and would have bumped into it but the top was lifted up on one side like it was hinged and I was pulled up into the shadows. As I got closer I could make out where the force was coming from and it was a dark green flying saucer with little green greyish men peaking out of it. I could see beyond them looking out across the yard to the houses surrounding us and all the windows were dark and there was no movement or sound.

And then I woke up and the roof was as tight as a drum and no aliens outside my window, I was on my bed with the sheets in place, not fallen to the floor. Great dream, probably the second I remember completely believing I was wide awake when wasnt, eight or nine at the time.

Have had a few more since, one included the Second Coming morning with everyone staring up into the East but for some reason I could only look at their faces and not turn my own face. It reminded me of the Beatific Vision. Sp? And I knew if I could just turn and look I would experience a greater sense of joy than I ever had before, there is nothing that I have wanted more in a dream than to be turned around....the feelings were so strong and the sky was much the same the next day, I had the "looking over the shoulder" feeling for a couple of days.

I am willing to believe that in the second my mind was trying to teach me something, but my body was firmly attached, and my only guide was my own thoughts.

Edited November 27, 2014 by calmoriah

[boblloyd91]

I like Elane Durham's and Howard Storm's respective NDE's because they are two very good examples of experiences not being culturally produced.

[ERayR]

I strongly suspect that like much of this life's journey NDE's are tailored to the person experiencing it. 

Edited November 27, 2014 by ERayR

[Garden Girl]

My Stake President, Brent Topp, wrote an interesting book on this subject.  Beyond Deaths Door. 

 

This is an excellent book... I highly recommend it... He and his wife, Wendy, did extensive interviews and research into NDEs of non-LDS individuals  for the purpose of seeing how closely their experiences paralleled the Church's view and theology.  There were widespread similarities...  and there were several things of almost universal similarity, like the Heavenly Music... or the colors that were hard to describe because they had never been seen before... etc etc.

 

GG

[Alan]

I have become more suspicious of NDE's with the passing of time. Some years ago I just lapped them up, but now I have realized that they are not all they are cracked up to be.

A case in point are the alleged NDE's which inspired the two books currently getting some saints excited; Visions of Glory, and A Greater Tomorrow.

Some LDS are so gullible.

[LinuxGal]

I have become more suspicious of NDE's with the passing of time. Some years ago I just lapped them up, but now I have realized that they are not all they are cracked up to be.

A case in point are the alleged NDE's which inspired the two books currently getting some saints excited; Visions of Glory, and A Greater Tomorrow.

Some LDS are so gullible.

 

Death has a precise definition.  It is the irreversible cessation of life.  If your heart stops, and someone starts it again, you didn't die.  If during that brief time you had a vision or a dream, it wasn't of the "other side" since going there is, by definition, a one way trip.  People have open heart surgery all the time without reporting NDEs.

[canard78]

NDE's what?

[Robert F. Smith]

I strongly suspect that like much of this life's journey NDE's are tailored to the person experiencing it. 

 

I don't take NDEs seriously. They seem in general to confirm the faith of the believer whether agnostic or whatever. I am not convinced the spirit left the body at all.

I know of no research which indicates this.  Could you both CFR, please?

From what I have read, even very divergent cultures seem to have pretty much the same NDE sequence, and it seems unrelated to norms of belief or culture of the person having the experience.

[strappinglad]

Death has a precise definition.  It is the irreversible cessation of life.

Philosophically maybe, but medically there is another definition which is often overcome. No heart or brain activity etc. It used to be that if one was cold and dead one was dead. Now one has to be warm and dead. And even then, there are documented cases of warm and no signs of life for several minutes under medical supervision, where the person came back on their own with no ill effects.

[Robert F. Smith]

Death has a precise definition.  It is the irreversible cessation of life.  If your heart stops, and someone starts it again, you didn't die.  If during that brief time you had a vision or a dream, it wasn't of the "other side" since going there is, by definition, a one way trip.  People have open heart surgery all the time without reporting NDEs.

Actually your definition is not very precise.  A Medical Dictionary defines death "as the cessation of all vital functions of the body including the heartbeat, brain activity (including the brain stem), and breathing."  http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/death .

 

Successful heart surgery does not include such irreversible cessation, because recovery is not possible, and the surgery in that case has been a failure.  Various devices are employed during such surgery to continue pumping the blood and in continuing to breathe for the patient.  It is only when someone is clinically dead that an authentic NDE can be surmised, and that does not prove that death has actually taken place -- since mistakes in diagnosis are still possible. The authenticity of any NDE is thus hard to prove except via indirect means of verification, e.g., observations made during the supposed NDE which could not possibly have been made by the patient.

Edited November 28, 2014 by Robert F. Smith

[Robert F. Smith]

Philosophically maybe, but medically there is another definition which is often overcome. No heart or brain activity etc. It used to be that if one was cold and dead one was dead. Now one has to be warm and dead. And even then, there are documented cases of warm and no signs of life for several minutes under medical supervision, where the person came back on their own with no ill effects.

And there have been cases in which children are apparently dead after drowning in very cold water, then recovering.  Why?  Because the cold slowed the blood flow and slowed brain and tissue damage.  So warmth is not a necessity.

[The Nehor]

I know of no research which indicates this.  Could you both CFR, please?

From what I have read, even very divergent cultures seem to have pretty much the same NDE sequence, and it seems unrelated to norms of belief or culture of the person having the experience.

No, don't care enough.

[bcuzbcuz]

 

I’m curious what other Latter Day Saints make of Near Death Experiences? I’m fascinated by them and read them frequently. Sites such as www.nderf.org are filled with them and it keeps growing. As members of the church we believe that in the mouth of 2-3 witnesses, truthful principles are better relayed through the Holy Ghost. Ok, so what happens when you have 2-3 thousand witnesses?

 

I think it’s wonderful that so many have come out and shared their experiences. But here are the issues I have. These thousands of witnesses have a very common message that they bring back that does NOT match up with what we believe to be revealed truth. Among others the common themes I see are:

 

•  It doesn’t matter what religion you belong to. Just learn to love everyone

• There is no right or wrong and no such thing as sin. Just experiences to learn from

• Everyone is instantly forgiven no matter what you did on earth

• There is no devil or hell. It’s a man made idea. (There are some NDE’s of Hell but they are VERY rare. Almost universally NDE’ers have a wonderful experience. Even attempted suicides and people who lived a horrible life whom you would “think” would be going to hell speak of going to paradise instead)

• There are several reports of the life review where people do get to feel the pain they caused in others lives by their bad choices. But then they are instantly forgiven and just asked what they learned from it and that seems to be the end of it. No consequences.

 

To sum it all up, it seems that it’s the whole “God will beat you with a few stripes” mentality and in the end everyone is saved.

 

One theory I have is that none of these NDE’ers stick around long enough to find out what happens next. Perhaps they are only experiencing the part that Alma talks about where everyone returns briefly to the God that gave them life but they never experience the partial judgment part or the spirit prison part.

 

Thoughts??

 

There is no such thing. You're either alive or dead. A body sustained through tubes and pumps is dead. The brain is dead but the blood functions can be maintained indefinitely.

 

Those who think that a person dies, wanders around and then comes back to life are merely superimposing their concepts onto a list of events. None of which prove anything.

[pogi]

There is no such thing. You're either alive or dead.

 

True, yet some are dead then alive.   "NDE" in those cases is a misnomer.

 

Those who think that a person dies, wanders around and then comes back to life are merely superimposing their concepts onto a list of events. None of which prove anything.

 

There are documented cases of people dying and coming back to life.  Are you simply questioning the "wandering around" part?  Isnt your doubt of their first-hand accounts a superimposition on your part?