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Prince Hal

I can become greater than Heavenly Father ?

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tubaloth: "This is where you are starting to get confused. Heavenly Father is the father of our spirits. He is the one that "begotten" us in Pre-Mortal life. "

No, you are wrong and you do not understand the Plan of Salvation, go back spend some time in study and prayer. Jesus is and was the ONLY Beggoten of the Father in spirit and the flesh some in the LDS Church try to add "in the flesh" but the scriputers are clear he is the Only Begotten Son of His Father in the Spirit as well.

While Jesus' Father is the original Father of all creations, we are NOT Begotten of Him in the same way as Jesus was in the Spirit or in the Flesh. And there is nothing written which counters that, you are reading something into what has been written.

Look, I am not going to go point by point, the fact is, you have a misunderstanding of the Plan of Salvation.

Fact: Everyone on this planet who lives the true and everlasting Gospel will become gods. We will live on this earth, which will be our Celestial Kingdom. We will NOT be in our Celestial Kingdom alone, every couple who attains the highest level of the Celestial Kingdom will be there and have spirit children born to them.

We, as a council of gods will create, with Jesus and His Father and earth which will be populated with our spirit children. Our spirit children will be born of us, as we are gods.

My wife and I will have spirit children as will all the other gods in the celesial kingdom this earth will become. These spirit children will go to the earth we co-create with the Father of Jesus, they WILL NOT Worship us, they will worship our Father in His Heaven (ie, the Father of Jesus, the true and everlasting God).

IF they follow the Gospel on their earth they too, someday will become gods and live in a Celestial Kingdom, which will be the earth they lived on. They will continue to worship the Father of Jesus Christ for all eternity, NOT my wife and I or you and your eternal spouse. They will continue in their worship of OUR God, the Father of Jesus Christ as will all of their spirit children in the future. And on and on forever, all giving and adding Glory to the ONE ETERNAL GOD, the Father of Jesus Chirst.

That is the only way God, The Eternal Father can be given Glory forever and ever.

That is how the God we worship can be the One God and there can and never will be any God before Him.

Jesus Christ is the only Beggoten of the Father, go to LDS.org and do a search of the entire standard works, it is clear this is the case both in spirit and in the Flesh.

We are children of a Heavenly Father, an exalted man (and woman) from another earth.

I can absoultly support these thruths, read, ponder and pray about them, just like I have done, it is the Holy Ghosts job to confirm or deny these things, not mine.

Lets face it, how much time, prayer and fasting have you put into this topic? As members of the LDS Church, we should have a grasp on the plan of Salvation, but from what I have seen here and in the Chruch, most are still in the milk stage.

Most members of the Church think they are going to have their own Celestial Kingdom and be worshiped by the children they sire and put onto an earth which is created however and wherever they want. I assure you, that is NOT the case. That is not the plan of salvation.

We become children of Jesus' Father basied on our retaining our First estate COMBINED with our Second estate. Jesus did not have to do that, because of His being "The Only Begotten of the Father." He was God from the beggining, his comming to Earth was not for him to atain his God-ship and place at the right hand of his Father, it was so we could attain our place as children of His Father.

Like I have said, this is not just your misunderstanding, but I know, if you spend the time and energy you should in the study of the Devine Nature of Jesus Christ, and the plan of salvation, you will come to understand just how improtant and vital Jesus is to the Plan of Salvation, and see Him for the Eternal God He is and always has been.

He is not just another spirit child of God (or gods like we are) and His importance and power is much more then just being the Oldest of the spirits of the gods.

That is my testimony of Him.

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Here is another theory that proves that God the Father may never have sinned. Maybe someone already mentioned this one too...

What if the Father God of Elohim's world DID give people Free Agency?

What if the Father God of Elohim's world had 2 sons, a Christ and a Satan?

What if Elohim (OUR FATHER) was the Christ of HIS world? What if Elohim was the first spirit son of HIS FATHER?

Then he would have been born as a human, and like Christ he would never have sinned. He would have died to redeem his people, and been exalted as a God.

Then he created our world, and the cycle repeats itself. The difference between Elohim and the other gods from his world is that HE NEVER SINNED because HE WAS A CHRIST.

In theory...

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Since the Mormon belief thinks God is limited because he is NOT omnipresent.

No. We do not believe God is limited. You appended that yourself.

Anyway, how does God not being omnipresent limit him??? Explain that to me.

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Correct me if I'm wrong but only the highest degree of the CK allows for eternal progression, no?

--KY

NO, we all progress in all kingdoms, as long as at some point we accept Christ.

Its a principle of glories being added upon.

We could never exceed God because each of our creations, whatever they are, add to His Glory. I added to the glory of Joseph (egypt) because I was born and am of his lineage. This same joseph adds to jacobs glory who in turns adds to Abrahams who in turn adds to......Thats how I see it. Its exponential.

Also, was the sin in what Satan was suggesting, in his plan to take away our free agency and make up obedient, the fact that he was looking to dispose God, taking His glory for his own? He wasnt looking to add to Gods, but thought he could just take it by virtue of knowledge and power. He had the secrets of the universe and the powers to do all but create and kill.

Was the sin in the approach to getting glory and the fact that he believed he could overpower God?

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Here is another theory that proves that God the Father may never have sinned. Maybe someone already mentioned this one too...

What if the Father God of Elohim's world DID give people Free Agency?

What if the Father God of Elohim's world had 2 sons, a Christ and a Satan?

What if Elohim (OUR FATHER) was the Christ of HIS world? What if Elohim was the first spirit son of HIS FATHER?

Then he would have been born as a human, and like Christ he would never have sinned. He would have died to redeem his people, and been exalted as a God.

Then he created our world, and the cycle repeats itself. The difference between Elohim and the other gods from his world is that HE NEVER SINNED because HE WAS A CHRIST.

In theory...

I have actually always thought that. I remember being taught that when I was a teen. Christ makes note on many occasions that he does what he saw the father do. He tells mary, its in the lords prayer, he told his disciples.

I have always thought that this is the concept behind god once being a man. Joseph never said he was lilke us. He said he was once a man of flesh, but compared his exitence to that of Christs, who is part God and part man.

I think you are right on the button because God would have added to His Gods glory and Christ adding to his. This is why it is imperative that we accept christ and become his. We then add to the glory of Christ and at the same time adding to Gods.

But yea, I never believed God was a sinner and corruptable like us. If we follow Christ, we follow God. They are one and at the same time separate.

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I am excommunicated from the lds. When I have successfully repented and submit myself to the standards that God sets for me, I am rebaptised and all sins are forgiven.

I have heard members say that they wish that they had some fun only to be rebaptized and forgiven. They think it cool to get a new start.

WRONG OH BUCCHAROOS!

While i may be able to start out with a clean slate, I have memories of sins committed and if perchance a fond memory associated with that sin, I am corrupted. I am not without sin.

God did not exist as a sinner at any time. Christ emulated what he saw the Father do. Christ was part God and man(being flesh, not spirit). I would never reduce Christ to that of a sinner and tread carefully when reducing God to such.

We may be forgiven, but we are not pure even when we repent. There is never a moment that goes by that I dont ache over some of my decisions, though I have repented.

The prodigal son returns and the house celebrates. The faithful son is jealous because no one ever celebrated him and he remained wise and faithful to the household. The father understands and lets him know that because of this they are only celebrating the return, but all that is his will be the faithful sons someday.

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What?

No, you are wrong and you do not understand the Plan of Salvation

So please teach me!

Jesus is and was the ONLY Beggoten of the Father in spirit and the flesh some in the LDS Church try to add "in the flesh" but the scriptures are clear he is the Only Begotten Son of His Father in the Spirit as well.

I agree with what you have said, but we are also spirit children of Heavenly Father (the same Spirit Father of Jesus). Let me see if I understand where you are coming from. This Father you are talking about only had ONE spirit Son. That was Jesus Christ! This same Father only had one Mortal Son and that was Jesus Christ. Correct?

The spirit father I have is different then the father of Jesus? Correct? Please teach me where this is in the scriptures! I am willing to learn! So the quote I gave by Pres. Hinckley (and from Elder McConkie) could you explain it to me what it means? You can even send me a message. I just want to learn from those that know it better then I. I should stop reading these quotes by these leaders because you seem to know it better then them. But lets get a couple more out.

While you are at it, could you explain this by the First Presidency.

The purport of these scriptures is to the effect that God the Eternal Father, whom we designate by the exalted name-title "Elohim," is the literal Parent of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, and of the spirits of the human race. Elohim is the Father in every sense in which Jesus Christ is so designated, and distinctively He is the Father of spirits. Thus we read in the Epistle to the Hebrews: "Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence; shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?" (Hebrews 12:9).

(James R. Clark, comp., Messages of the First Presidency of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 6 vols. (Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1965-75), 5: 26.)

What Father of our spirits is this scripture talking about that we need to subject to?

Lets see if I can find one more.

I am grateful that in the midst of the confusion of our Father's children there has been given to the members of this great organization a sure knowledge of the origin of man, that we came from the spirit world where our spirits were begotten by our Father in Heaven, that he formed our first parents from the dust of the earth, and that their spirits were placed in their bodies, and that man came, not as some have believed, not as some have preferred to believe, from some of the lower walks of life, but our ancestors were those beings who lived in the courts of heaven. We came not from some menial order of life, but our ancestor is God our Heavenly Father. I am grateful that we are not laboring under a handicap such as I feel that some men are who feel that they have grown up and evolved from some unknown condition; but, on the contrary, standing as we do, facing the problems of life, believing as we do that we were first created in the image of God, that he is the Father of our spirits, and that he created this earth for us that we might dwell hereon, under his wise counsel and direction, we may be happy to rejoice in life and to prepare ourselves to go back into his presence, to live forever, when our life here upon this earth has been terminated. (Conference Reports, October 1925, p. 33.)

(George Albert Smith, The Teachings of George Albert Smith, edited by Robert McIntosh and Susan McIntosh [salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1996], 14.)

But hey teach me what Father in Heaven he is talking about.

Also explain this scripture.

(John 20:17.)

17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

What is Jesus talking about here? It seems to mean (to me) that he is going to the same Father and God that we have? Sorry I probably don't have the spirit right now.

Also if your idea is true then how is Jesus our elder brother? Or our brother at all?

We, as a council of gods will create, with Jesus and His Father and earth which will be populated with our spirit children. Our spirit children will be born of us, as we are gods.

Could you site where it talks about the Jesus and Heavenly Father will create worlds with us?

That is the only way God, The Eternal Father can be given Glory forever and ever.

As long as I live I will give Glory to Him, how long that will be I don't know, but if I make it to be a god, that will be a long time.

Just point me to the scriptures that say that my spirit comes from a different Father in Heaven? Teach me where it says that my spirit comes from a god different then The GOD.

All I am saying is that God the Father would have been created by another perfect God. He would not have had Free Agency in his world, so he was pre-destined to be perfect too. And that is how it may have worked throughout the geneology of the gods going back to the beginning...if there was a beginning...of the universe

Where does it say that Heavenly Father didn't need Free Agency or wouldn't of had Free Agency? We had Free Agency in the pre-mortal life? Hasn't Agency always been around? How can the plan of salvation (or any plan to save spirit children) work with out free agency.

I will quote what I just read today:

Inherent in the whole system of salvation that grows out of the fall of man; inherent in the great and eternal plan that makes of this life a preparatory and a probationary state; inherent in the very atoning sacrifice of God himself

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tubaloth,

Read what I have posted, and instead of just trying to come up with a response to prove you are right, seek for higher understanding of the Plan of Salvation.

Read Abraham Chapter 3.

The last line of Verse 19 "I am the Lord thy God, I am more intellegent then they all." According to Talmage, that statement 'more intellegent then they all' means that in OUR pre-existance, the sum intellegences of all the gods, spirits and intellegances there was still less intellegence then the Lord Gods intellegence.

That is the fundamental difference between a progressed god and the Father of Jesus Chirst. All the progessed gods in our pre-mortal existance, of whom we are born COMBINED do not equal or surpass Jesus' Father in intellegence. (or Jesus for that matter, Since He too, is God.)

Yes, everything is His (Elohims) creation, we are his children because of that. But that does not mean we are "begotten" in the EXACT same way Jesus was. Look up the word begotten, there is more then being born of being sired by.

Yet as the Father of all creations, inculding progressed gods, whom we are born of, we are still His children and brothers and sisters of Christ. Even still "begotten" or caused to be created by Him.

The "mormon myth" that my spouse and I will be Elohim and Spouse(s) of our own world does not add up. We will be gods in a Celestial Kingdom and with all the other gods who attain that level (FROM THIS EARTH) will be gods with us. We will be the coucil of gods which Jesus Christ, under His Father, will Preside over. The plan of salvation we adopt will be the plan of His Father, the Eternal God. We, as gods, and under the direction of Chirst will create an earth as has heretofor been done, and the plan will continue.

And the Glory will be Given to Jesus' Father, the One Eternal God FOREVER.

If Elohim has other "only Begotten Sons" which were begotten the exact same way as Jesus, with the same atrributes of God, they too, are Christs for the earth(s) they perside over. We do not know if that is true or not, since the only thing we know is what pertains to the earth on which we stand. That is how the Atonement is infinte and eternal for us, which is ALL WE KNOW. (Abraham 3:3)

Nothing you have posted from the Prophets or the scriptures counter what I am saying. The only thing that counters this is the "mormon myth" I have already pointed out.

This is the only way we, as LDS Saints, can know there is more then one god, yet in truth, worship the One True God, the Father Jesus Christ. We do not worship a progressed God that was once a sinner on another world. No prophet has ever said that we do. On the contrary, each one testifies we worship the Father of Jesus not a progressed, once sinning god, but The One true and living God, Elohim, The Father of Jesus Chirst. The God from Eternity to Eternity, the God Jesus testified "was greater than" Him.

So, don't feel bad when you sing "I am a child of God", it is true, but there is more to it then that.

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kneehigh,

I believe that those who become exalted will be just as great and powerful as God the Father

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Paul,

One of the reasons I began to post on this board is because intellegent, thinking people like you post here.

There is nothing wrong with what you believe or posted, what we are talking about here does nothing for or against our salvation, it is simply something which intrests me and has for some time. I have believed things that proved to be wrong, I have even read things written by the Prophets I thought were wrong.

I do not base my salvation in myself, my undestanding of every word the prophets have said or written, or anything accept the Atonement of Jesus Christ, so to that end, we can believe differently on this topic and still attain Eternal Life.

The final truth of this topic may be something we will not know while in this life, but because of my ADD, I have to come up with stuff like this so I stay excited about study of the Gospel. Otherwise, I get bored with just the same old blah blah blah I hear in Church every Sunday.

It is not my intent to irritate or ignore anyone here, it's just my way of dealing with my illness (or whatever ADD is).

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kneehigh,

I agree with your sentiments, absolutely.

I don

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Paul O,

Yeah, I know I am right too. Maybe your geneology goes back to the Eternal Gods and mine only to the progressed eternal gods, and we are both right!

Does Adderall have any side effects? Most of the ADDed others I have delt with self-medicated with Meth (when I was a police officer). I have not gone either route yet.

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Paul O,

Yeah, I know I am right too. Maybe your geneology goes back to the Eternal Gods and mine only to the progressed eternal gods, and we are both right!

Does Adderall have any side effects? Most of the ADDed others I have delt with self-medicated with Meth (when I was a police officer). I have not gone either route yet.

kneehigh,

There are side effects with every drug but I've found Adderall to be positive all the way around. It wouldn't hurt to give it a try under a doctor's care, of course. That's why these drugs exists, to help people like you and me. :P

Hey, my brother has been a Dallas police officer for over 15 years - he's a sergeant. He doesn

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This is what I said in the trinity thread...

Since the Mormon belief thinks God is limited because he is NOT omnipresent. I then said, then there would be a god higher then the Father....

interesting...

I want to see more replies on this...this adds to what is being said in the other thread....

And, it wasn't quite complete or correct there either.

Context.

God is not limited in presence, knowledge, or power. The Trinity at work.

Any statement to the contrary misrepresents the faith.

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Read what I have posted, and instead of just trying to come up with a response to prove you are right, seek for higher understanding of the Plan of Salvation.

Where else can I learn the Plan of Salvation? It comes from the prophets and from the scriptures. They teach us the truth. That is why I go to them because as long as I have been LDS I have never ever heard your ideas. I am starting to realize that they are just your ideas, but that is Ok. What ever works for you. I am just saying I can't find this idea anywhere.

Read Abraham Chapter 3.

That is a great chapter, I like the verse you sited, but as far as I have always understood the topic of this verse it isn't Heavenly Father but Jesus Christ that is being talked about.

Elder Maxwell said:

Furthermore, let us not forget that great insight given us about the premortal world. The ascendancy of Jesus Christ (among all of our spirit brothers and sisters) is clearly set forth. Of Him it was said that He is "more intelligent than they all." (Abraham 3:19.)

(Neal A. Maxwell, All These Things Shall Give Thee Experience [salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1979], 22.)

I can see why you like your idea so much more it makes more sense to see how things are structured but it just doesn't agree with what is taught.

A couple of other problems I see is first if Heavenly Father only had one son Jesus Christ where did all of these other gods come from? Why would I even call Heavenly Father, my Father if I have no tie to him?

I would like to know how you came up with this idea, where does it say that Heavenly Father only had One spirit child? I just can't seem to find it anywhere.

I keep find statements like this one found in the Bible Dictionary

"Jesus is the firstborn of the spirit children of our Heavenly Father, the Only Begotten of the Father in the flesh, and the first to rise from the dead in the resurrection,

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Read what I have posted, and instead of just trying to come up with a response to prove you are right, seek for higher understanding of the Plan of Salvation.

Where else can I learn the Plan of Salvation? It comes from the prophets and from the scriptures. They teach us the truth. That is why I go to them because as long as I have been LDS I have never ever heard your ideas. I am starting to realize that they are just your ideas, but that is Ok. What ever works for you. I am just saying I can't find this idea anywhere.

Read Abraham Chapter 3.

That is a great chapter, I like the verse you sited, but as far as I have always understood the topic of this verse it isn't Heavenly Father but Jesus Christ that is being talked about.

Elder Maxwell said:

Furthermore, let us not forget that great insight given us about the premortal world. The ascendancy of Jesus Christ (among all of our spirit brothers and sisters) is clearly set forth. Of Him it was said that He is "more intelligent than they all." (Abraham 3:19.)

(Neal A. Maxwell, All These Things Shall Give Thee Experience [salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1979], 22.)

I can see why you like your idea so much more it makes more sense to see how things are structured but it just doesn't agree with what is taught.

A couple of other problems I see is first if Heavenly Father only had one son Jesus Christ where did all of these other gods come from? Why would I even call Heavenly Father, my Father if I have no tie to him?

I would like to know how you came up with this idea, where does it say that Heavenly Father only had One spirit child? I just can't seem to find it anywhere.

I keep find statements like this one found in the Bible Dictionary

"Jesus is the firstborn of the spirit children of our Heavenly Father, the Only Begotten of the Father in the flesh, and the first to rise from the dead in the resurrection,

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If I did, then I would become His God.

No. No, you wouldn't.

Could you ever be your Father's Father? No, not gonna happen.

I could be a hundred times more intelligent, succesful, and knowledgeable than my father, but I could never become HIS father. Just not possible.

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Paul Osborne Posted on Jan 9 2005, 03:01 PM

I believe that those who become exalted will meet the Father of Heavenly Father, as well as his Father, and all of the Fathers in our eternal line. I believe there never was a first Father just as there will never be a last Father.

How can that be?

According to your beliefs, once you met all of the Fathers, there would always be one more (his Father).

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"Be Ye Even As I Am".

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Paul Osborne Posted on Jan 9 2005, 03:01 PM

I believe that those who become exalted will meet the Father of Heavenly Father, as well as his Father, and all of the Fathers in our eternal line. I believe there never was a first Father just as there will never be a last Father.

How can that be?

According to your beliefs, once you met all of the Fathers, there would always be one more (his Father).

Man is finite but God is infinite.

Our God knows an infinite number of Gods. To say otherwise is to deny God

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"Be Ye Even As I Am".

Rev 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

Paul O

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Paul Osborne Posted on Jan 9 2005, 03:01 PM

I believe that those who become exalted will meet the Father of Heavenly Father, as well as his Father, and all of the Fathers in our eternal line. I believe there never was a first Father just as there will never be a last Father.

How can that be?

According to your beliefs, once you met all of the Fathers, there would always be one more (his Father).

Man is finite but God is infinite.

Our God knows an infinite number of Gods. To say otherwise is to deny God

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"Be Ye Even As I Am".

Rev 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

Paul O

This verse implies there is only one throne. Is that acceptable to your theory?

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