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Prince Hal

I can become greater than Heavenly Father ?

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Would we not agree that in Mormon theology, Heavenly Father is not really the supreme being? We worship Him agreed, but He has a Father, who undoubtedly He honours and subjects His will to. LDS do not worship the supreme being therefore.

Can we agree on that ?

Hal.

No, we cannot agree, because what you posted is totally false. Heavenly Father is the supreme being, and no sinner will ever be Him. And there is nothing in "mormon theology" which says anything more or less then that.

Sorry Kneehigh. But this IS Mormon Theology. Heavenly Father has a Father, who has a Father. This is Eternal Progression. Consequently, there is someone more supreme in Mormon Theology than Him whom we call Elohim or Heavenly Father.

It is a fact. Staunch LDS may come to my aid on this one.

Hal.

No, Hal, it is NOT LDS theology, the Father of Jesus Christ was never a sinner on another world. I would challenge you to find one place where that is in scripture or even teachings of the prophets of the LDS Church.

And just for info, I am LDS.

Just because you do not understand what has been written on this issue does not mean I do not understand what has been written on this issue.

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Thnik of it this way:

Will you ever have more posterity than your father? Even if you are an only child your father will always have at least one more descendent than you do. You will never overtake your father, no matter how fast you pump out kids, and no matter how fast your grandkids pump out kids.

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Our Heavenly Father is our God, not another, that is LDS theology. There may be others out there, but He IS the only one we answer to and worship. PERIOD.

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Well no one can say that I started this thread but it brings to mind some of the very same questions about

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Answer to Kneehigh - some more relevant than others:

"We were begotten by our Father in Heaven; the person of our Father in Heaven was begotten on a previous heavenly world by His Father; and again, He was begotten by a still more ancient Father and so on, from generation to generation, from one heavenly world to another still more ancient, until our minds are wearied and lost in the multiplicity of generations and successive worlds, and as a last resort, we wonder in our mind, how far back the genealogy extends, and how the first world was formed, and how the first Father was begotten." [Orson Pratt, The Seer, Washington D. C., 1854, p. 132.]

"You have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves

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Well no one can say that I started this thread but it brings to mind some of the very same questions about

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Well no one can say that I started this thread but it brings to mind some of the very same questions about

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Answer to Kneehigh - some more relevant than others:

"We were begotten by our Father in Heaven; the person of our Father in Heaven was begotten on a previous heavenly world by His Father; and again, He was begotten by a still more ancient Father and so on, from generation to generation, from one heavenly world to another still more ancient, until our minds are wearied and lost in the multiplicity of generations and successive worlds, and as a last resort, we wonder in our mind, how far back the genealogy extends, and how the first world was formed, and how the first Father was begotten." [Orson Pratt, The Seer, Washington D. C., 1854, p. 132.]

"You have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves

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Sorry Kneehigh. But this IS Mormon Theology. Heavenly Father has a Father, who has a Father. This is Eternal Progression. Consequently, there is someone more supreme in Mormon Theology than Him whom we call Elohim or Heavenly Father.

It is a fact. Staunch LDS may come to my aid on this one.

Hal.

I don't think we can fault Hal for believing this to be church doctrine, as it is believed by many, if not the majority, of LDS people. Several people on these boards have been adamant about this very doctrine:

The Mormon Father (as you put it) was saved by grace. He was glorified by his Father

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Answer to Kneehigh - some more relevant than others:

"We were begotten by our Father in Heaven; the person of our Father in Heaven was begotten on a previous heavenly world by His Father; and again, He was begotten by a still more ancient Father and so on, from generation to generation, from one heavenly world to another still more ancient, until our minds are wearied and lost in the multiplicity of generations and successive worlds, and as a last resort, we wonder in our mind, how far back the genealogy extends, and how the first world was formed, and how the first Father was begotten." [Orson Pratt, The Seer, Washington D. C., 1854, p. 132.]

"You have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves

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Sorry Kneehigh. But this IS Mormon Theology. Heavenly Father has a Father, who has a Father. This is Eternal Progression. Consequently, there is someone more supreme in Mormon Theology than Him whom we call Elohim or Heavenly Father.

It is a fact. Staunch LDS may come to my aid on this one.

Hal.

I don't think we can fault Hal for believing this to be church doctrine, as it is believed by many, if not the majority, of LDS people. Several people on these boards have been adamant about this very doctrine:

The Mormon Father (as you put it) was saved by grace. He was glorified by his Father

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YH8,

My comments are describing some difficulties I have in reconciling the lds nature of God to what I see the nature being in mainstream Christianity. It was not meant to demean whatever your belief is, but merely to present some obvious contrasts.

Since there are problems with religion because of trying to figure out the first God or how it all started . . . in your mind, are there problems with confirming the existence of humans because we don't know how they started?

If we weren

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Since there are problems with religion because of trying to figure out the first God or how it all started . . . in your mind, are there problems with confirming the existence of humans because we don't know how they started?

1) If we weren

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YH8,

I think I understand what you mean. It doesn

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I need to re-read a few of the posts here. But while I have the chance, let me say a couple of things.

I belive that Jesus Christ was perfect and so is our Heavenly Father and were never sinners - at all, not once. But then my concept of the Trinity is not the same as LDS.

If you think about it, we might according to LDS Theology have a two tier God system. There's the premier God's, such as Christ and Heavenly Father, and their direct lineage. These are the ones who were perfect and who never sinned - like Christ on this earth.

There are then the second stream, i.e. Joseph Smith and everyone else who makes it to the Celestial Kingdom and become Gods, i.e. those who have sinned and then become perfected - in heaven I presume. Therefore there will be some worlds in the future, who will be worshipping a God (a Heavenly Father to them) who was once a sinner - perhaps even an adulterer or fornicator.

It seems logical, but I cannot belive in such theology.

Hal.

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Would we not agree that in Mormon theology, Heavenly Father is not really the supreme being? We worship Him agreed, but He has a Father, who undoubtedly He honours and subjects His will to. LDS do not worship the supreme being therefore.

Can we agree on that ?

I actually don't have a position on this, Hal and I don't know that you will find agreement on a large scale because it is irrelevant to what we consider necessary for salvation. I could handle it either way and it is only the recent activity in philosophical circles that have made me think about it. You would be very interested in the growth of LDS philosophers...they tackle this stuff head on and the way that you constuct God does have logical consequences that we do not usually put together. There are offshoots from Protestant religions, too...like the Openness movement in Evangelicism that has come to some of the same conclusions as our LDS philosophers (which is getting them in trouble with their peers). Process Theology also thinks that all is in "process"....even God and with some exceptions aligns itself to LDS theology in some quite meaningful ways.

What I enjoy about Mormon theology is that we can use these sorts of things to expand our personal theology. This to me is where personal revelation comes to play.

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Therefore there will be some worlds in the future, who will be worshipping a God (a Heavenly Father to them) who was once a sinner - perhaps even an adulterer or fornicator.

It seems logical, but I cannot belive in such theology.

Looking at this in a philsophical manner rather than a theological one...this would be an example of where we have to give up one belief to salvage another. A cornerstone of any religion is repentence so that our sins are not just forgiven but they are forgotten. If you are not willing to have a deity who sinned...aren't we throwing away repentence? Repentence either has efficacy or we have to throw it out because we will we remain tainted regardless of what we have been promised.

These are the sorts of difficulties that make me content to maintan a simple belief in God's promises of salvation. :P

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Okay, say I become a God. [Just assuming]. I can grow. What is to stop me from growing and progressing faster than my Heavenly Father ?

Doesn't work that way. Think Amway, dude.

--KY

You take the best one liner of the day prize!

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Prince Hal,

God is exalted and he knows all things. There is nothing that he does not know. He cannot grow anymore except in his dominion as spirits and worlds are created by his divine hand. God is perfect in every way, being perfect in character, virtue, quality, abilities, knowledge, and wisdom. There is absolutely nothing for Heavenly Father to improve on. All the Gods are perfect and cannot improve themselves in any way. When we become a God we will be as perfect and glorious as God the Father!

How is the moment of exaltation actually realized? I think that the celestial candidate kneels before the Father and that God lays his hands upon the head and says something to the effect, "I ordain you a God over worlds without end, Amen." At this juncture the candidate rises to his feet and is instantly caught up into exaltation with all the Gods. This is the very moment when perfection and glory are brought to pass. There is nothing more to learn, ever! All things are known to the Gods and all things are under them.

The Gods create their own universe and form a galaxy(s) to suit their fancy. Our galaxy is so vast that we can't begin to count the stars. It is so wide that we can't begin to measure its true distance. Every God can count the stars within their dominion. One galaxy can be a billion times bigger than another. Scientists have no earthly idea just how big galaxies really are - they just quote numbers. The human mind is incapable of grasping the size of our galaxy. One could count every grain of sand on this earth and it would hardly begin to compare to the number of stars.

Don't worry about catching up with Heavenly Father. He has a head start and we will procreate at his pace.

Paul O

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I need to re-read a few of the posts here. But while I have the chance, let me say a couple of things.

I belive that Jesus Christ was perfect and so is our Heavenly Father and were never sinners - at all, not once. But then my concept of the Trinity is not the same as LDS.

If you think about it, we might according to LDS Theology have a two tier God system. There's the premier God's, such as Christ and Heavenly Father, and their direct lineage. These are the ones who were perfect and who never sinned - like Christ on this earth.

There are then the second stream, i.e. Joseph Smith and everyone else who makes it to the Celestial Kingdom and become Gods, i.e. those who have sinned and then become perfected - in heaven I presume. Therefore there will be some worlds in the future, who will be worshipping a God (a Heavenly Father to them) who was once a sinner - perhaps even an adulterer or fornicator.

It seems logical, but I cannot belive in such theology.

Hal.

Hal!

You are close. The only thing you are not understanding is the last line:

"Therefore there will be some worlds in the future, who will be worshipping a God (a Heavenly Father to them) who was once a sinner - perhaps even an adulterer or fornicator."

There is NOTHING I have ever read that says a sinner will be worshipped as we whorship the Father of Christ. The plan of salvation is to give glory to Jesus' Father at all times and for eternity.

Also, there is nothing that says I will ever be worshipped as such. All glory my children now or ever (even if they are born to me in Heaven, in the furure when I am a god) will give is to my God, the Father of Jesus Christ.

Never, anywhere, and in any form does it say we have or will worship anything other then a God who always has been and always will be, through His ONLY BEGOTTEN SON, Jesus Christ.

Like I posted, if you can supply me with ONE line of prophecy or scripture which says the the Eternal Father of Jesus Chirst is a progressed man who was a sinner on another world, I would like to see it.

There is simply no other way the Glory could be given to God (the Father of Jesus) forever, before, during or after this life, FOREVER.

The only information we have been given is how the "progressed gods" got to where they are now, not one word have I found to suggest that the Father of Jesus, or Jesus himself, was ever anything other then the perfect, all knowing, all powerful God. (With the possible acception of when Jesus was a baby born on the earth, but even then, as a child and teenager, he did nothing that was wrong or against the will of His Eternal Father).

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Is the Father of Jesus Christ different then the The Father of My Spirit?

I bring this up because it seems like some people are talking about these beings two different people.

That My Father (of my spirit) can sin, But the Father of Jesus Christ can't?

Maybe I have the wrong Father? I will post more latter. Maybe, I don't really know where this thread is going now.

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Is the Father of Jesus Christ different then the The Father of My Spirit?

I bring this up because it seems like some people are talking about these beings two different people.

That My Father (of my spirit) can sin, But the Father of Jesus Christ can't?

Maybe I have the wrong Father? I will post more latter. Maybe, I don't really know where this thread is going now.

Well, how can Jesus be the ONLY BEGOTTON of his Father, and yet you, tubaloth, also be a begotton of His Father?

No, the father of your spirit cannot sin, now, but that does not mean he was not a sinner who repented and did what he had to do to get to what he is now.

No, you do not have "the wrong father".

Is the Father of your spirit an exalted man who was once a sinner and attained his godship? I would say yes.

Was Jesus' Father an exalted man who was once a sinner and attained His godship in the same way? I would say no.

Again, if any one can provide a scripture, or prophetic writing which shows Jesus' Father begat any other Sons or daughters BESIDES Jesus Christ, I would really like to see it.

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I didn't know this has gotten so far a head of me. I will try to comment on a couple of things. (forgive me how long this is)

Would we not agree that in Mormon theology, Heavenly Father is not really the supreme being? We worship Him agreed, but He has a Father, who undoubtedly He honours and subjects His will to. LDS do not worship the supreme being therefore.

Can we agree on that ?

No because there is nobody Higher then Heavenly Father. I would assume He is equal with his Father. And some day I will be equal to them. (As in having the same power and knowledge) So does that make one more supreme then the other?

You will never overtake your father, no matter how fast you pump out kids, and no matter how fast your grandkids pump out kids.

I was trying to make that point earlier but I doubt anybody caught it.

Answer to Kneehigh - some more relevant than others:

This is where Prince Hal sited some of the many posts of how Heavenly Father had a Father and so forth. The problem is none of these explain that we worship any of the others, nor does it say that any are more powerful (or supreme) then the others. That is where you are trying to say that there are more powerful Gods then ours. That isn't the case! When we pass the test of this life, and are found faithful we will get all the glory and power of the Father from The Father. How else would we get it? This is the only way to get it, is to have it given to me. This is the same way Heavenly Father got it, this is the same way I will give it. So there is no way I can pass my Heavenly Father (there is no back door) the power comes through him, no other way.

Now to Keehigh's problems

Well, that is the point, isn't it. We (LDS) and anyone for that matter, who prays to the Father of Jesus is praying to that One God, THE GOD.

I agree, as long as we will live, Heavenly Father (our Heavenly Father) will always be our Father and he will always be the one we give the glory to.

Moses 4:2

Father, thy will be done, and the glory be thine forever.

I think where people get sideways, both LDS and non LDS is in the fact we are called "children of God". Well, the scriptures are pretty clear, JESUS is/was the ONLY Son of God.

This is where you are starting to get confused. Heavenly Father is the father of our spirits. He is the one that "begotten" us in Pre-Mortal life.

The work that goes on in [the temple] sets forth God's eternal purposes with reference to man, God's child and creation. For the most part it is concerned with the family, with each of us as members of God's eternal family and with each of us as members of earthly families. . . .

It affirms that each man and woman born into the world is a child of God, endowed with something of His divine nature. The repetition of these basic and fundamental teachings has a salutary effect upon those who receive them, for as the doctrine is enunciated in language both beautiful and impressive, the participant comes to realize that since every man is a child of a heavenly Father, then each is a member of a divine family and hence every man is his brother. ("Why These Temples?" Ensign, August 1974, p. 39.)

(Gordon B. Hinckley, Teachings of Gordon B. Hinckley [salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1997], 158.)

Man is in reality a child of God. Nothing in the universe is more important than the individual. His spirit was begotten of God; consequently all men are brothers in the literal sense. In the Mormon concept the phrase, "the Fatherhood of God and the brotherhood of man" takes on a new and powerful meaning. (What of the Mormons? pamphlet, 1982, p. 6.)

(Gordon B. Hinckley, Teachings of Gordon B. Hinckley [salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1997], 159.)

If you want more quotes I would be happy to give them to you.

So Heavenly Father had all of us as his Children. The First child he had in Pre-Mortal life was Jesus Christ.

Now speaking of Jesus Christ being the "Only Begotten Son" this has reference to Heavenly Father being the EARTHLY father of Jesus Christ.

All men (Christ included) were born as the sons of God in the spirit; one man (Christ only) was born as the Son of God in this mortal world. He is the Only Begotten in the flesh. God was his Father; Mary was his mother. His Father was an immortal man; his mother was a mortal woman. He is the Son of God in the same literal, full, and complete sense in which he is the son of Mary.

(Bruce R. McConkie, A New Witness for the Articles of Faith [salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1985], 67.)

It is my belief that I am a spiritual child of a progressed man who resides in a Celestial Kingdom, he in reality, is MY father in Heaven. I don't worship him, pray to him or anything else. I worship the Father of Jesus Christ, the one Eternal God.

This is a nice idea, but can you support it by anything? I could quote more that shows that Heavenly Father is the father of your spirit.

LDS people have said many of these same things in person, including missionaries who come to my door to teach me about the truth.

Apparently this is a legitimate stream of thought within LDS theology.

I just state again, the problem isn't that our Heavenly Father has a Father, it is showing none are more powerful or know more then what our Father does. Or that we worship any of the other Gods.

Again, we can BECOME gods. Jesus and His Father in Heaven were/are ALWAYS GODS. They did not progress to that state, like we have to.

Jesus' Father did not progress to become what he always was. Nor did Jesus, they were always God. Again, I have never read anything from the scriptures or the prophets which counter this.

You are close, but I will get to this at the end, again can you supported this idea that Jesus' Father and my Father are different.

Lets set forth this doctrine of "As God Is, Man May Be"

God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! That is the great secret. If the veil were rent today, and the great God who holds this world in its orbit, and who upholds all worlds and all things by His power, was to make himself visible,

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Again, if any one can provide a scripture, or prophetic writing which shows Jesus' Father begat any other Sons or daughters BESIDES Jesus Christ, I would really like to see it.

To clarify, are you looking for references regarding Christ's Father as literally begetting other spirit children, or literally begatting others into mortality, or figurative begetting others into the Church of Christ, or figurative begatting others unto spiritual men via the resurrecton?

Perhaps the following may be of some help:

http://www.aros.net/~wenglund/BookA/Chap2.htm

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

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