125 replies to this topic

[Prince Hal]

I have been mulling over a few of the doctrines that I believed in when I was a true believing Mormon, and researching them. One that has struck me is that of “eternal progression”.

Our Heavenly Father was once on an earth like ours and grew and became our God. He know’s what Christ was to go through, because He experienced the same on His earth. Anyway that is how I was taight it – I believe this to be an accurate representation of what LDS believe.

Okay, say I become a God. [Just assuming]. I can grow. What is to stop me from growing and progressing faster than my Heavenly Father ? If I did, then I would become His God. Heavenly Father is growing in a particular way. McConkie says that He is perfect, omnipotent, etc and therefore it is a heresy to suggest that He can become more so, but that He grows by creating more worlds and peopling them. Then why could I not – as a God – do the same, but faster. Eventually, even though He has such a headstart on me, I could overtake Him.

If you believe that we cannot grow faster then Him, maybe at the same rate or less, then of course we could never overtake Him. But, I’m not certain how such a mechanism could work. So, if think about my children, if they become Gods. They would be growing but slower than myself. Eventually, if you follow the path down to my great-great-infinitely-great grandchild, they could progress at all for fear of progressing more than their father – or at least the progression would be so small it wouldn’t be worth it.

Now, I do not profess to understand the alternatives completely – the non-Mormon views – but I can understand that Mormonism has created a doctrine that doesn’t stand up to logic.

Perhaps this is why Joseph called God his “right hand man” and suggested that he was greater than Christ. Perhaps Joseph understood that one day he would be greater than them both.

Any thoughts anyone.

Genuinely and sincerely your friend,

Hal.

[Agent Smith]

If we separate out Moses 1:39 then it is his work to bring about our immortality, and his glory is to bring about our eternal life.

No matter what we attain, achieve or become in this life, or the next, it adds to his glory, so in that sense we could never 'overtake' him.

Edited by Agent Smith, 07 January 2005 - 07:43 AM.

[LDS4EVER]

I turn on a handheld lazer (like a lazer pointer) and point ot ahead of me. Heavenly Father's status is at the end of that light. I begin running with lazer in hand (and I can run forver). No matter how fast and hard I run, I will never catch up to Heavenly Father.

Just my 2 cents

[King Folly]

Quote

Okay, say I become a God. [Just assuming]. I can grow. What is to stop me from growing and progressing faster than my Heavenly Father ?

Doesn't work that way. Think Amway, dude.

--KY

[Servant]

This is what I said in the trinity thread...

Since the Mormon belief thinks God is limited because he is NOT omnipresent.  I then said, then there would be a god higher then the Father....

interesting...


I want to see more replies on this...this adds to what is being said in the other thread....

[Servant]

King Folly, on Jan 7 2005, 07:35 AM, said:

Quote

Okay, say I become a God. [Just assuming]. I can grow. What is to stop me from growing and progressing faster than my Heavenly Father ?

Doesn't work that way. Think Amway, dude.

--KY

Amway?  That is a scam....but I do get your point.

[Servant]

LDS4EVER, on Jan 7 2005, 07:29 AM, said:

I turn on a handheld lazer (like a lazer pointer) and point ot ahead of me. Heavenly Father's status is at the end of that light. I begin running with lazer in hand (and I can run forver). No matter how fast and hard I run, I will never catch up to Heavenly Father.

Just my 2 cents

can you please then explain why Jesus makes himself equal to God?

Quote

Matt. 5:21-22; 27-28; 31-32; 33-34; 38-39; 43-44 - Jesus makes Himself equal to God when He declares, "You heard it said...but I say to you.."
John 5:18 - Jesus claimed to be God. The Jews knew this because Jesus called God His Father and made Himself equal to God. This is why Jesus was crucified.

[dragonslayer]

Just for extra input, in LDS thought, dont we as humans each "progress" at different rates? Especially those who are destined for the lower kingdoms, wouldnt they be progressing at a slower rate than those in the CK?

Isnt the CK itself even divided into 3 groups? So, if we all do progress at different levels, then I see nothing to stop one from progressing faster than any other god, so it seems possible to be greater than any other god.

[King Folly]

Correct me if I'm wrong but only the highest degree of the CK allows for eternal progression, no?

--KY

[Bsix]

Wow...this is an exercise in speculative theoretical quantum-level LDS theology.

regards,

Six

[emaughan]

Quote

Since the Mormon belief thinks God is limited because he is NOT omnipresent. I then said, then there would be a god higher then the Father....

interesting...

That is something that is not clearly revealed - we get into the problem (for us mere mortals) of thinkng about the eternities.  In our faith we worship God the father.  Does God have a God - probably based on knowledge of the plan of Salvation - but of such things we know next to nothing.  

What do you believe God was doing for the infinite amount of time before the creation?  See what I mean about tough questions to ponder.

Quote

can you please then explain why Jesus makes himself equal to God?

Jesus Christ was divinely invested with the power and authority of His father which allows Him to act in His name.  He was/is equal with the Father in power and name, but I do not believe in glory.  Christ made it very clear He was not the equal of the Father whom He also submitted His will, told His disciples that the Father is greater than He and we - along with Christ - will be co-heirs of all that the Father has (if we follow the good shepard).  Christ is under the direction of the Father - it is His will that He submitted to in the garden - not His own.

Edited by emaughan, 07 January 2005 - 10:30 AM.

[kneehigh]

No, men cannot become greater than Jesus' Father.

And, for the record, never, anywhere, and in no way, did Joseph Smith ever say Jesus' Father was ever a "sinner" on another earth.

[tubaloth]

[quote]
I have been mulling over a few of the doctrines that I believed in when I was a true believing Mormon, and researching them.
[/quote]

I can see you need to do more research.

[quote]
Our Heavenly Father was once on an earth like ours and grew and became our God.
[/quote]
Yes Heavenly went through the plan of salvation and so forth.

[quote]
He know�?¢â?¬â?¢s what Christ was to go through, because He experienced the same on His earth.
[/quote]

This is one of those things people think has to be?  There is no evidence anywhere that Heavenly Father did the same thing as Christ (meaning completely some atonement).  If you mean that Heavenly Father experienced life (pain/temptation/mortal body) just like Christ did then this I can agree with.

[quote]
McConkie says
[/quote]

You have problems here.  Lets get the quote you are talking about by Elder McConkie.

[quote]
Heresy one: There are those who say that God is progressing in knowledge and is learning new truths.
This is false--utterly, totally, and completely. There is not one sliver of truth in it. It grows out of a wholly twisted and incorrect view of the King Follett Sermon and of what is meant by eternal progression.
God progresses in the sense that his kingdoms increase and his dominions multiply--not in the sense that he learns new truths and discovers new laws. God is not a student. He is not a laboratory technician. He is not postulating new theories on the basis of past experiences. He has indeed graduated to that state of exaltation that consists of knowing all things and having all power.
The life that God lives is named eternal life. His name, one of them, is "Eternal," using that word as a noun and not as an adjective, and he uses that name to identify the type of life that he lives. God's life is eternal life, and eternal life is God's life. They are one and the same. Eternal life is the reward we shall obtain if we believe and obey and walk uprightly before him. And eternal life consists of two things. It consists of life in the family unit, and, also, of inheriting, receiving, and possessing the fullness of the glory of the Father. Anyone who has each of these things is an inheritor and possessor of the greatest of all gifts of God, which is eternal life.
Eternal progression consists of living the kind of life God lives and of increasing in kingdoms and dominions everlastingly. Why anyone should suppose that an infinite and eternal being who has presided in our universe for [billions of] years, who made the sidereal heavens, whose creations are more numerous than the particles of the earth, and who is aware of the fall of every sparrow--why anyone would suppose that such a being has more to learn and new truths to discover in the laboratories of eternity is totally beyond my comprehension.

The attributes of God are given as knowledge, faith or power, justice, judgment, mercy, and truth. The perfections of God are named as "the perfections which belong to all of the attributes of his nature," which is to say that God possesses and has all knowledge, all faith or power, all justice, all judgment, all mercy, and all truth. He is indeed the very embodiment and personification and source of all these attributes. Does anyone suppose that God can be more honest than he already is? Neither need any suppose there are truths he does not know or knowledge he does not possess.
[/quote]

I don't see how you twist this to your confusion.  

[quote]
What is to stop me from growing and progressing faster than my Heavenly Father ?
[/quote]

Nothing, but what is to say that you can grow any faster? Don't you think Heavenly Father is growing in " kingdoms and dominions" as fast as he can?  What would slow him down?

[quote]
Heavenly Father is growing in a particular way. McConkie says that He is perfect, omnipotent, etc and therefore it is a heresy to suggest that He can become more so, but that He grows by creating more worlds and peopling them.
[/quote]

McConkie says that Heavenly Father is as high as anybody can progress to be!  Nothing anybody else does will ever get them higher then what Heavenly Father is!   Now maybe you can get to be at the same level as Heavenly Father faster.  But you will never be able to be "more powerful" then Him.  How could you be?

[quote]
Then why could I not �?¢â?¬â?? as a God �?¢â?¬â?? do the same, but faster. Eventually, even though He has such a headstart on me, I could overtake Him.
[/quote]

This logic would work if we were all independent of one another and there is no end to how far we can progress in power.  Both of this doesn't hold true.  First is their anything I can do to become my Dad's dad?  Can I make more money then him?  Can I go to school longer then him?  Can I ever become my Dad's dad?  The answer is an easy No!  Heavenly Father is our God; he is our creator and the one that gives us all that he has.  How could I ever do anything to change any of this?  If the time comes and I get all the Father has, how could I ever get any more then this?  Then when I get all that the Father has, the only way to progress is to have more "kingdoms increase and dominions multiply".  But sense Heavenly Father is my God still his dominos increase with mine!  His Kingdoms increase with mine.  What is mine is His because it is because of Him that I can do all of this.  

So there is no way for me to "out run" Heavenly Father.  He will always be my God and my Father.  I will come to the point that I will receive all that He has!  I then will go on creating worlds with out number, multiplying not only my kingdom, but his also.

[quote]
So, if think about my children, if they become Gods. They would be growing but slower than myself. Eventually, if you follow the path down to my great-great-infinitely-great grandchild, they could progress at all for fear of progressing more than their father �?¢â?¬â?? or at least the progression would be so small it wouldn�?¢â?¬â?¢t be worth it.
[/quote]

You can progress as fast as you are able to.  But you can only progress in knowledge, glory, light, and truth until you receive all that Heavenly Father has for you.  After that, you aren't learning new things you are creating more kingdoms.  Now could you do this faster then the next guy?  I guess so, but I don't see how that would make you any more powerful then the next guy?  The key is as you keep progressing you aren't gain more power.  So both you and your children if the follow the plan correctly well share in your inheritance that you got from your Heavenly Father.  They will get all that you have, no more no less.  

[quote]
Since the Mormon belief thinks God is limited because he is NOT omnipresent
[/quote]

As the quote by Elder McConkie explains God is omnipresent.  I haven't read anything other wise.  

[quote]
can you please then explain why Jesus makes himself equal to God?
[/quote]

Because Jesus had reached perfection as in no sin.  He has all power through God. He was so much like his Father that they were one in idea and purpose.  This made Jesus a God.  
But Jesus knew who he fell under.  Jesus knew who he would always worship.
[quote]
(John 20:17)
�?¢â?¬�?¦I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
[/quote]

Christ, even though He was a God (because of his Heavenly Father) he knew who would always be his Father and His God.  This would never change. How could it?

[quote]
dont we as humans each "progress" at different rates?
[/quote]

Yes we do!

[quote]
Especially those who are destined for the lower kingdoms, wouldnt they be progressing at a slower rate than those in the CK?
[/quote]

Progress to what?  What would the lower kingdoms progress too?  They can't go any higher then their kingdom.  

Speaking of the telestial kingdom Christ said:
(Doctrine and Covenants 76:112.)
112 And they shall be servants of the Most High; but where God and Christ dwell they cannot come, worlds without end.

Again Elder McConkie:

[quote]
There are those who say that there is progression from one kingdom to another in the eternal worlds or that lower kingdoms eventually progress to where higher kingdoms once were.
This belief lulls men into a state of carnal security. It causes them to say, "God is so merciful; surely he will save us all eventually; if we do not gain the celestial kingdom now, eventually we will; so why worry?" It lets people live a life of sin here and now with the hope that they will be saved eventually.
The true doctrine is that all men will be resurrected, but they will come forth in the resurrection with different kinds of bodies--some celestial, others terrestrial, others telestial, and some with bodies incapable of standing any degree of glory. The body we receive in the resurrection determines the glory we receive in the kingdoms that are prepared.
Of those in the telestial world it is written:
(D&C 76:112).
Of those who had the opportunity to enter into the new and everlasting covenant of marriage in this life and who did not do it, the revelation says:
Therefore, when they are out of the world they neither marry nor are given in marriage; but are appointed angels in heaven; which angels are ministering servants, to minister for those who are worthy of a far more, and an exceeding, and an eternal weight of glory.
For these angels did not abide my law; therefore, they cannot be enlarged, but remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity; and from henceforth are not gods, but are angels of God forever and ever. [D&C 132:16�??�?­17]
They neither progress from one kingdom to another, nor does a lower kingdom ever get where a higher kingdom once was. Whatever eternal progression there is, it is within a sphere.
[/quote]

So for those in the lower kingdom that is it for them.

[quote]
Isnt the CK itself even divided into 3 groups? So, if we all do progress at different levels, then I see nothing to stop one from progressing faster than any other god,
[/quote]

You are right we can all progress at different levels, but we can only progress to a point that we become like God. We can't gain more knowledge then God has, we can't gain more power then He is going to give us.  

[quote]
so it seems possible to be greater than any other god.
[/quote]

Greater as in farther along the journey of progress yes.  But greater as in more power,  No!

Edited by tubaloth, 07 January 2005 - 10:53 AM.

[YH8]

Prince Hal, on Jan 7 2005, 03:54 AM, said:

1) but I can understand that Mormonism has created a doctrine that doesn�?¢â?¬â?¢t stand up to logic.

2) Perhaps this is why Joseph called God his �?¢â?¬�??right hand man�?¢â?¬�? and suggested that he was greater than Christ. Perhaps Joseph understood that one day he would be greater than them both.

Are  you serious?

1) See Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith p. 347 (see also John 12:28,30)

2) Are you serious?

Have you stopped thinking when it comes to things LDS?  Or are you just reacting now?

[Jigglysaint]

Anybody who believes for a second that they can become better than Heavenly Father does not know God at all.

I was mulling over this very issue last night.  You see, satan, or Lucifer as he was once called, was a angel in high authority in God's court.  Somthing happened to him that caused him to think about God's effectivness.  I would not be surprised if Luficer was the very first angsttiest, who saw that God's ways were, on a certain scale, very cruel.  I am sure satan has many of the same thoughts in his head that many people who leave the church do now, like questioning God's authority.  Anyway, he fell because he wished to impose his will on God's, and mocked the very foundation of God's will, which is that though Jesus Christ all can become like Him.

Today people mock the very principle of eternal progression because satan has implanted into them a feeling that to become "as God" is the same as "to become greater than God".  Satan knows what's written in the scriptures.  Since He can't have godhood, he's trying hard to make sure we don't inherit that reward God has promised us.  One of the ways he does it is by causing people to openly mock those who do believe in eternal progression.  Not a single anti-mormon or person who left the church has never listened to the devil in this, or other matters.

Godhood doesn't mean overthrowing God.  Only a person with a personal vendetta against the church, or somebody who does not desire knowing the will of the Father would say such a thing.

[Truth]

It seems as if your thoughts, Hal, are rather limited here.  You equate God's power, progression, etc, as if it were like Bill Gates being the richest man on earth.  It is not the same.  We are in subjection to the Father, just as Christ is.  Paul stated that we are to be joint-heirs with Christ.  We will inherit what He does, if we are true and faithful, as He is/was.  

You know little of this, just like all of us.  When we are ready for more, we will get it.  Agent Smith hit the nail on the head, this is His work and glory, not ours.  He is our God forever.  We have no concept how it began and how it goes.  Maybe the beginning of the this universe was God's start.  Maybe there are parallel universes to infinity.  Maybe ranging back in to time where it all began, where God began, and yet the scriptures say God always was.  

We do not know.  Spend time reading the scriptures and praying, etc. to gain knowledge, it comes a bit at a time.

[BCSpace]

Quote

can you please then explain why Jesus makes himself equal to God?

Because he is the God(Jehovah) the Hebrews worshipped (and the God most of those verses are refering to), who had yet to be introduced to the Father.

However, while it is true that Jesus is equal to the Father in Godlike qualities (as we will also be) as per Philippians 2:5-6 and Rev 3:21 etc., Jesus still considers the Father to be his God as per John 20:17 (hence, plurality of Gods and Subordinationism are Biblical).  The Father is still Jesus' creator and God, so even though we will become Gods ourselves, God will always be our God.

Edited by BCSpace, 07 January 2005 - 11:38 AM.

[Jigglysaint]

Servant, on Jan 7 2005, 09:02 AM, said:

LDS4EVER, on Jan 7 2005, 07:29 AM, said:

I turn on a handheld lazer (like a lazer pointer) and point ot ahead of me. Heavenly Father's status is at the end of that light. I begin running with lazer in hand (and I can run forver). No matter how fast and hard I run, I will never catch up to Heavenly Father.

Just my 2 cents

can you please then explain why Jesus makes himself equal to God?

Quote

Matt. 5:21-22; 27-28; 31-32; 33-34; 38-39; 43-44 - Jesus makes Himself equal to God when He declares, "You heard it said...but I say to you.."
John 5:18 - Jesus claimed to be God. The Jews knew this because Jesus called God His Father and made Himself equal to God. This is why Jesus was crucified.

I found a passage from the Book of Mormon that seems to put it in perspective reguarding equality and godhood:

Mosiah 14(the contenxt is that Abinadi is quoting Isisah, which the scripture is talking about the Mesiah, thus the "I" in the context would be that of the Lord speaking)

12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death; and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bore the sins of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

Just from this passage alone I can gather that Heavenly Faither divides the Kingdom with Jesus, and that is how they are both equal.  Now, Jesus divides His kingdom with those who obtained godhood, since Jesus is God and He's going to share with us.

Those who say that mormons say that we can become better than Heavenly Father are cursed, and yes I am talking about the topic creator.

[Servant]

Jigglysaint, on Jan 7 2005, 11:39 AM, said:

Servant, on Jan 7 2005, 09:02 AM, said:

LDS4EVER, on Jan 7 2005, 07:29 AM, said:

I turn on a handheld lazer (like a lazer pointer) and point ot ahead of me. Heavenly Father's status is at the end of that light. I begin running with lazer in hand (and I can run forver). No matter how fast and hard I run, I will never catch up to Heavenly Father.

Just my 2 cents

can you please then explain why Jesus makes himself equal to God?

Quote

Matt. 5:21-22; 27-28; 31-32; 33-34; 38-39; 43-44 - Jesus makes Himself equal to God when He declares, "You heard it said...but I say to you.."
John 5:18 - Jesus claimed to be God. The Jews knew this because Jesus called God His Father and made Himself equal to God. This is why Jesus was crucified.

I found a passage from the Book of Mormon that seems to put it in perspective reguarding equality and godhood:

Mosiah 14(the contenxt is that Abinadi is quoting Isisah, which the scripture is talking about the Mesiah, thus the "I" in the context would be that of the Lord speaking)

12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death; and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bore the sins of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

Just from this passage alone I can gather that Heavenly Faither divides the Kingdom with Jesus, and that is how they are both equal.  Now, Jesus divides His kingdom with those who obtained godhood, since Jesus is God and He's going to share with us.

Those who say that mormons say that we can become better than Heavenly Father are cursed, and yes I am talking about the topic creator.

but I was actually trying to see how THAT fit in with what the person I was asking in what she said...

"I turn on a handheld lazer (like a lazer pointer) and point ot ahead of me. Heavenly Father's status is at the end of that light. I begin running with lazer in hand (and I can run forver). No matter how fast and hard I run, I will never catch up to Heavenly Father."

so one can be eqaul to god but not better?    well the person said we would run forever and we would never catch up to Heaven father....so this doesnt seem like one will be better or even equal

Edited by Servant, 07 January 2005 - 11:45 AM.

[Prince Hal]

Would we not agree that in Mormon theology, Heavenly Father is not really the supreme being? We worship Him agreed, but He has a Father, who undoubtedly He honours and subjects His will to. LDS do not worship the supreme being therefore.

Can we agree on that ?

Hal.

Edited by Prince Hal, 07 January 2005 - 12:19 PM.