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Prince Hal

I can become greater than Heavenly Father ?

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I have been mulling over a few of the doctrines that I believed in when I was a true believing Mormon, and researching them. One that has struck me is that of “eternal progression”.

Our Heavenly Father was once on an earth like ours and grew and became our God. He know’s what Christ was to go through, because He experienced the same on His earth. Anyway that is how I was taight it – I believe this to be an accurate representation of what LDS believe.

Okay, say I become a God. [Just assuming]. I can grow. What is to stop me from growing and progressing faster than my Heavenly Father ? If I did, then I would become His God. Heavenly Father is growing in a particular way. McConkie says that He is perfect, omnipotent, etc and therefore it is a heresy to suggest that He can become more so, but that He grows by creating more worlds and peopling them. Then why could I not – as a God – do the same, but faster. Eventually, even though He has such a headstart on me, I could overtake Him.

If you believe that we cannot grow faster then Him, maybe at the same rate or less, then of course we could never overtake Him. But, I’m not certain how such a mechanism could work. So, if think about my children, if they become Gods. They would be growing but slower than myself. Eventually, if you follow the path down to my great-great-infinitely-great grandchild, they could progress at all for fear of progressing more than their father – or at least the progression would be so small it wouldn’t be worth it.

Now, I do not profess to understand the alternatives completely – the non-Mormon views – but I can understand that Mormonism has created a doctrine that doesn’t stand up to logic.

Perhaps this is why Joseph called God his “right hand man” and suggested that he was greater than Christ. Perhaps Joseph understood that one day he would be greater than them both.

Any thoughts anyone.

Genuinely and sincerely your friend,

Hal.

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If we separate out Moses 1:39 then it is his work to bring about our immortality, and his glory is to bring about our eternal life.

No matter what we attain, achieve or become in this life, or the next, it adds to his glory, so in that sense we could never 'overtake' him.

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I turn on a handheld lazer (like a lazer pointer) and point ot ahead of me. Heavenly Father's status is at the end of that light. I begin running with lazer in hand (and I can run forver). No matter how fast and hard I run, I will never catch up to Heavenly Father.

Just my 2 cents

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Okay, say I become a God. [Just assuming]. I can grow. What is to stop me from growing and progressing faster than my Heavenly Father ?

Doesn't work that way. Think Amway, dude.

--KY

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This is what I said in the trinity thread...

Since the Mormon belief thinks God is limited because he is NOT omnipresent. I then said, then there would be a god higher then the Father....

interesting...

I want to see more replies on this...this adds to what is being said in the other thread....

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Okay, say I become a God. [Just assuming]. I can grow. What is to stop me from growing and progressing faster than my Heavenly Father ?

Doesn't work that way. Think Amway, dude.

--KY

Amway? That is a scam....but I do get your point.

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I turn on a handheld lazer (like a lazer pointer) and point ot ahead of me. Heavenly Father's status is at the end of that light. I begin running with lazer in hand (and I can run forver). No matter how fast and hard I run, I will never catch up to Heavenly Father.

Just my 2 cents

can you please then explain why Jesus makes himself equal to God?

Matt. 5:21-22; 27-28; 31-32; 33-34; 38-39; 43-44 - Jesus makes Himself equal to God when He declares, "You heard it said...but I say to you.."

John 5:18 - Jesus claimed to be God. The Jews knew this because Jesus called God His Father and made Himself equal to God. This is why Jesus was crucified.

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Just for extra input, in LDS thought, dont we as humans each "progress" at different rates? Especially those who are destined for the lower kingdoms, wouldnt they be progressing at a slower rate than those in the CK?

Isnt the CK itself even divided into 3 groups? So, if we all do progress at different levels, then I see nothing to stop one from progressing faster than any other god, so it seems possible to be greater than any other god.

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Correct me if I'm wrong but only the highest degree of the CK allows for eternal progression, no?

--KY

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Wow...this is an exercise in speculative theoretical quantum-level LDS theology.

regards,

Six

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Since the Mormon belief thinks God is limited because he is NOT omnipresent. I then said, then there would be a god higher then the Father....

interesting...

That is something that is not clearly revealed - we get into the problem (for us mere mortals) of thinkng about the eternities. In our faith we worship God the father. Does God have a God - probably based on knowledge of the plan of Salvation - but of such things we know next to nothing.

What do you believe God was doing for the infinite amount of time before the creation? See what I mean about tough questions to ponder.

can you please then explain why Jesus makes himself equal to God?

Jesus Christ was divinely invested with the power and authority of His father which allows Him to act in His name. He was/is equal with the Father in power and name, but I do not believe in glory. Christ made it very clear He was not the equal of the Father whom He also submitted His will, told His disciples that the Father is greater than He and we - along with Christ - will be co-heirs of all that the Father has (if we follow the good shepard). Christ is under the direction of the Father - it is His will that He submitted to in the garden - not His own.

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No, men cannot become greater than Jesus' Father.

And, for the record, never, anywhere, and in no way, did Joseph Smith ever say Jesus' Father was ever a "sinner" on another earth.

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I have been mulling over a few of the doctrines that I believed in when I was a true believing Mormon, and researching them.

I can see you need to do more research.

Our Heavenly Father was once on an earth like ours and grew and became our God.

Yes Heavenly went through the plan of salvation and so forth.

He know

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1) but I can understand that Mormonism has created a doctrine that doesn

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Anybody who believes for a second that they can become better than Heavenly Father does not know God at all.

I was mulling over this very issue last night. You see, satan, or Lucifer as he was once called, was a angel in high authority in God's court. Somthing happened to him that caused him to think about God's effectivness. I would not be surprised if Luficer was the very first angsttiest, who saw that God's ways were, on a certain scale, very cruel. I am sure satan has many of the same thoughts in his head that many people who leave the church do now, like questioning God's authority. Anyway, he fell because he wished to impose his will on God's, and mocked the very foundation of God's will, which is that though Jesus Christ all can become like Him.

Today people mock the very principle of eternal progression because satan has implanted into them a feeling that to become "as God" is the same as "to become greater than God". Satan knows what's written in the scriptures. Since He can't have godhood, he's trying hard to make sure we don't inherit that reward God has promised us. One of the ways he does it is by causing people to openly mock those who do believe in eternal progression. Not a single anti-mormon or person who left the church has never listened to the devil in this, or other matters.

Godhood doesn't mean overthrowing God. Only a person with a personal vendetta against the church, or somebody who does not desire knowing the will of the Father would say such a thing.

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It seems as if your thoughts, Hal, are rather limited here. You equate God's power, progression, etc, as if it were like Bill Gates being the richest man on earth. It is not the same. We are in subjection to the Father, just as Christ is. Paul stated that we are to be joint-heirs with Christ. We will inherit what He does, if we are true and faithful, as He is/was.

You know little of this, just like all of us. When we are ready for more, we will get it. Agent Smith hit the nail on the head, this is His work and glory, not ours. He is our God forever. We have no concept how it began and how it goes. Maybe the beginning of the this universe was God's start. Maybe there are parallel universes to infinity. Maybe ranging back in to time where it all began, where God began, and yet the scriptures say God always was.

We do not know. Spend time reading the scriptures and praying, etc. to gain knowledge, it comes a bit at a time.

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can you please then explain why Jesus makes himself equal to God?

Because he is the God(Jehovah) the Hebrews worshipped (and the God most of those verses are refering to), who had yet to be introduced to the Father.

However, while it is true that Jesus is equal to the Father in Godlike qualities (as we will also be) as per Philippians 2:5-6 and Rev 3:21 etc., Jesus still considers the Father to be his God as per John 20:17 (hence, plurality of Gods and Subordinationism are Biblical). The Father is still Jesus' creator and God, so even though we will become Gods ourselves, God will always be our God.

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I turn on a handheld lazer (like a lazer pointer) and point ot ahead of me. Heavenly Father's status is at the end of that light. I begin running with lazer in hand (and I can run forver). No matter how fast and hard I run, I will never catch up to Heavenly Father.

Just my 2 cents

can you please then explain why Jesus makes himself equal to God?

Matt. 5:21-22; 27-28; 31-32; 33-34; 38-39; 43-44 - Jesus makes Himself equal to God when He declares, "You heard it said...but I say to you.."

John 5:18 - Jesus claimed to be God. The Jews knew this because Jesus called God His Father and made Himself equal to God. This is why Jesus was crucified.

I found a passage from the Book of Mormon that seems to put it in perspective reguarding equality and godhood:

Mosiah 14(the contenxt is that Abinadi is quoting Isisah, which the scripture is talking about the Mesiah, thus the "I" in the context would be that of the Lord speaking)

12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death; and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bore the sins of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

Just from this passage alone I can gather that Heavenly Faither divides the Kingdom with Jesus, and that is how they are both equal. Now, Jesus divides His kingdom with those who obtained godhood, since Jesus is God and He's going to share with us.

Those who say that mormons say that we can become better than Heavenly Father are cursed, and yes I am talking about the topic creator.

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I turn on a handheld lazer (like a lazer pointer) and point ot ahead of me. Heavenly Father's status is at the end of that light. I begin running with lazer in hand (and I can run forver). No matter how fast and hard I run, I will never catch up to Heavenly Father.

Just my 2 cents

can you please then explain why Jesus makes himself equal to God?

Matt. 5:21-22; 27-28; 31-32; 33-34; 38-39; 43-44 - Jesus makes Himself equal to God when He declares, "You heard it said...but I say to you.."

John 5:18 - Jesus claimed to be God. The Jews knew this because Jesus called God His Father and made Himself equal to God. This is why Jesus was crucified.

I found a passage from the Book of Mormon that seems to put it in perspective reguarding equality and godhood:

Mosiah 14(the contenxt is that Abinadi is quoting Isisah, which the scripture is talking about the Mesiah, thus the "I" in the context would be that of the Lord speaking)

12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death; and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bore the sins of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

Just from this passage alone I can gather that Heavenly Faither divides the Kingdom with Jesus, and that is how they are both equal. Now, Jesus divides His kingdom with those who obtained godhood, since Jesus is God and He's going to share with us.

Those who say that mormons say that we can become better than Heavenly Father are cursed, and yes I am talking about the topic creator.

but I was actually trying to see how THAT fit in with what the person I was asking in what she said...

"I turn on a handheld lazer (like a lazer pointer) and point ot ahead of me. Heavenly Father's status is at the end of that light. I begin running with lazer in hand (and I can run forver). No matter how fast and hard I run, I will never catch up to Heavenly Father."

so one can be eqaul to god but not better? well the person said we would run forever and we would never catch up to Heaven father....so this doesnt seem like one will be better or even equal

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Would we not agree that in Mormon theology, Heavenly Father is not really the supreme being? We worship Him agreed, but He has a Father, who undoubtedly He honours and subjects His will to. LDS do not worship the supreme being therefore.

Can we agree on that ?

Hal.

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What happens to the verse that says, God the Father is above all?

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so one can be eqaul to god but not better? well the person said we would run forever and we would never catch up to Heaven father....so this doesnt seem like one will be better or even equal

I think were have a terminology issue. To LDS, God is not just some guys first name - God is a title. This is a title that is shared by two other members of the Godhead - Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost. Christ has been given, by the Father, the power to speak and act in His name. He is the creator of physical things under the direction of the Father, He has the authority to be our mediator, and he has the power to redeme all of mankind. All of this was granted to Him by His (and our) Father in heaven. We to can be exalted and become heirs of the Father's kingdom and be granted the title of God. Diefication though does not mean that we will ever become equal or greater than God. Even Christ made it clear (thanks BCSpace for looking up the references) that He is NOT above the Father but the Father is greater than He. Even though Christ has the calling and title of God does not mean He is above the Father (and Lord makes it clear that He is subject to the Father).

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Would we not agree that in Mormon theology, Heavenly Father is not really the supreme being? We worship Him agreed, but He has a Father, who undoubtedly He honours and subjects His will to. LDS do not worship the supreme being therefore.

Can we agree on that ?

Hal.

No, we cannot agree, because what you posted is totally false. Heavenly Father is the supreme being, and no sinner will ever be Him. And there is nothing in "mormon theology" which says anything more or less then that.

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Would we not agree that in Mormon theology, Heavenly Father is not really the supreme being? We worship Him agreed, but He has a Father, who undoubtedly He honours and subjects His will to. LDS do not worship the supreme being therefore.

Can we agree on that ?

Hal.

No, we cannot agree, because what you posted is totally false. Heavenly Father is the supreme being, and no sinner will ever be Him. And there is nothing in "mormon theology" which says anything more or less then that.

Sorry Kneehigh. But this IS Mormon Theology. Heavenly Father has a Father, who has a Father. This is Eternal Progression. Consequently, there is someone more supreme in Mormon Theology than Him whom we call Elohim or Heavenly Father.

It is a fact. Staunch LDS may come to my aid on this one.

Hal.

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Perhaps this is why Joseph called God his

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