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Rodeo

Towards A Better Understanding Of Same Sex Attraction And Sin

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Find that ANYWHERE in the scriptures referring to sex (not marriage).  Sex in the scriptures has never been about personal bonds.  It is only used for "begetting".

 

Not saying I personally agree with that, but since we are supposed to be talking gospel doctrine here....

Sex releases oxytocin, a neurotransmitter central to pair bonding in mammals. You may as well ask me where in the scriptures it says that water is wet.

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I agree that a child has the right to be raised in a stable and loving home, but I think that marriage is an arbitrary distinction.

 

If you're going to bring me personally into this, you should know that I'm demisexual, and the LDS understanding of chastity seems to be part of my essential nature. I'm just not convinced that deviating from those norms are a sin, but I haven't done anything (yet) that needs covering up.

 

A covenantal relationship between man and woman blessed by G-d and participated in and also blessed by the community is "an arbitrary distinction," huh?  You're really reaching here.

 

As for the alleged "personally" you fear . . . fear not.  It was not intended and should not be taken personally.

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Lets properly define it please. Same sex attraction hasn't really been condemned. The behavior however has always been condemned. As it has become socially acceptable by ungodly worldy standards, this still doesnt justify one to live with homosexual behavior and feel he has been damaged because the righteous condemn it.

So in other words, if it hurts someone's feelings, if we condemn it, we should accept it then.

 

That seems to be what some are saying in this thread. In essence that is what being PC means.

 

The behavior is wrong plain and simple.

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Not going into complete details here, but my stepson, who is gay, just lost his partner to suicide after 7 years.  Irrelevant I am sure is the fact that he was LDS (my stepson is not).  But that being said, we cannot know ...really know..what it would be like to have someone say you are evil, bad..because you love.  I know the world isn't fair..but we should try.

Just because you love somebody or something isnt justification for making the practice right.

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Just because you love somebody or something isnt justification for making the practice right.

That seems to be getting blurred more and more.

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A covenantal relationship between man and woman blessed by G-d and participated in and also blessed by the community is "an arbitrary distinction," huh?  You're really reaching here.

 

As for the alleged "personally" you fear . . . fear not.  It was not intended and should not be taken personally.

When people can and do enter and leave such unions at will, even after having children, then yes, it's arbitrary.

Edited by Tsuzuki

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Lets properly define it please. Same sex attraction hasn't really been condemned. The behavior however has always been condemned. As it has become socially acceptable by ungodly worldy standards, this still doesnt justify one to live with homosexual behavior and feel he has been damaged because the righteous condemn it.

 

Yes the behavior has always been condemned but separating the behavior from the innate attraction is relatively new in our doctrine.  Our church supported orientation change efforts until just recently.  I'm not sure how anyone can read the late 20th century works by Kimball & Packer on the subject of homosexuality and not feel that is was unilaterally condemned.  But I know that some do.

 

Regarding the gay young man that I counseled, he was raised in the time when "To The One" and "To Young Men Only" were our Church's published pamphlets on the subject of homosexuality.  And I didn't say that he "felt" he was damaged.  He *was* damaged by this condemnation.

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Sex releases oxytocin, a neurotransmitter central to pair bonding in mammals. You may as well ask me where in the scriptures it says that water is wet.

 

And anger releases adrenalin.  Doesn't make the purpose of anger to kill indiscriminately.

Everything has a purpose.  The purpose of sex is reproduction - that's the result (barring interference or medical issues).  The bonding created is because the parents are to stay together and raise the child.

 

I don't doubt that homosexual sex can create bonds.  But those bonds are pointless if the purpose of the entire thing (creating life) is unachievable in all eternity.

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There are some examples in society where social conditions and circumstance leads to homosexual behavior. Because of some of these social conditions it has led to more acceptance of the practice in general. I am reminded here of the Catholic church where priests do not marry and many of them choose homosexual lifestyles because of this. http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2013/07/29/catholic-priests-its-empirical-fact-that-many-clergy-are-gay

I have a cousin who was studying to become a Catholic priest and he ended up quitting the school and became gay. I attribute this to the seminary program and the social conditioning and circumstances it places on youthful minds.

The prison institution is yet another that breeds homosexual behavior. The BSA is yet another that when left unchecked attracts or creates situations leading to homosexual behavior. I know this from many years working in the scout organization and seeing it happen.

I am not saying any of the above are evil or wrong but that we need to address all these things that lead to social situations that are breeding grounds for homosexual behavior.

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That seems to be getting blurred more and more.

I have a family member who killed himself because of a long history of blurred lines and pornography thet led to him committing sexual abuse on his child. Satan loves blurred lines.

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I have obviously been accused of gay bashing. I just want to clarify I have never done any gay bashing. My heart goes out to those who struggle I do want to have abetter understanding of the issues but at the same time I do not want to fall nto the trap of calling that which is wrong to be right. Immoral behavior is always sin. There has been a push by the gay agenda to make homosexuality an alternative normal practice. It has crept into the church also amongst members and we even see many fall away over the myriad of issues. I do wonder though how much of this is due to Satan and his works. I found this talk to be helpful in my understanding-https://www.lds.org/ensign/1995/10/same-gender-attraction?lang=eng&query=lesbianAt the same time in my study I also found this talk by Spencer W. Kimball- https://www.lds.org/ensign/1980/11/president-kimball-speaks-out-on-morality?lang=eng&query=homosexual+spencer+w.+kimballSo that I cannot be accused of gay bashing I want to quote Spencer W. Kimball which I feel truly represents our awful situation in the world today-" This heinous homosexual sin is of the ages. Many cities and civilizations have gone out of existence because of it. It was present in Israel’s wandering days, tolerated by the Greeks, and found in the baths of corrupt Rome.This is a most unpleasant subject to dwell upon, but I am pressed to speak of it boldly so that no youth in the Church will ever have any question in his mind as to the illicit and diabolical nature of this perverse program. Again, Lucifer deceives and prompts logic and rationalization which will destroy men and women and make them servants of Satan forever. Paul told Timothy:“For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;“And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be mined unto fables.” (2 Tim. 4:3–4; See also Moses 5:50–55.)“God made me that way,” some say, as they rationalize and excuse themselves for their perversions. “I can’t help it,” they add. This is blasphemy. Is man not made in the image of God, and does he think God to be “that way”? Man is responsible for his own sins. It is possible that he may rationalize and excuse himself until the groove is so deep he cannot get out without great difficulty, but this he can do. Temptations come to all people. The difference between the reprobate and the worthy person is generally that one yielded and the other resisted. It is true that one’s background may make the decision and accomplishment easier or more difficult, but if one is mentally alert, he can still control his future. That is the gospel message—personal responsibility."I am trying to understand the issue and I am constantly coming back to the same conclusion every time- The influence and acceptance of immoral behavior is just adding fuel to the fire in every facet which includes homosexual behavior.

I haven't read the whole thread yet, but my advice:

Follow the living prophet over the dead ones.

And follow current counsel over older counsel.

The most current official resource I'm aware of from the LDS church on the topic is found at:

http://mormonsandgays.org/

Edited by Daniel2

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Rodeo, what are these blurred lines you speak of that Satan loves? I'm agreeing with you, but I was just curious.

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There are some examples in society where social conditions and circumstance leads to homosexual behavior. Because of some of these social conditions it has led to more acceptance of the practice in general. I am reminded here of the Catholic church where priests do not marry and many of them choose homosexual lifestyles because of this. http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2013/07/29/catholic-priests-its-empirical-fact-that-many-clergy-are-gay

I have a cousin who was studying to become a Catholic priest and he ended up quitting the school and became gay. I attribute this to the seminary program and the social conditioning and circumstances it places on youthful minds.

The prison institution is yet another that breeds homosexual behavior. The BSA is yet another that when left unchecked attracts or creates situations leading to homosexual behavior. I know this from many years working in the scout organization and seeing it happen.

I am not saying any of the above are evil or wrong but that we need to address all these things that lead to social situations that are breeding grounds for homosexual behavior.

 

Unless you have data that you aren't sharing here, you appear to be conflating correlation with causation.

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rockpond, the damage you spoke of that the gay person you counseled felt and condemnation, isn't that the same condemnation that men who have pre martial sex with women feel since it's also a sin?

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And anger releases adrenalin.  Doesn't make the purpose of anger to kill indiscriminately.

I hope adrenalin doesn't cause you to kill indiscriminately.

 

Everything has a purpose.  The purpose of sex is reproduction - that's the result (barring interference or medical issues).  The bonding created is because the parents are to stay together and raise the child.

 

I don't doubt that homosexual sex can create bonds.  But those bonds are pointless if the purpose of the entire thing (creating life) is unachievable in all eternity.

They can adopt, and have sex to maintain strong bonds for raising their adopted children, even into the eternities.

Edited by Tsuzuki

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I hope adrenalin doesn't cause you to kill indiscriminately.

 

They can adopt, and have sex to maintain strong bonds for raising their adopted children, even into the eternities.

 

But there their increase would end....aka, damnation.

 

In the end, it is fine if people want to believe that homosexual relationships are a good thing but our acceptance of them changes nothing.

 

The eternal family is Father/Mother(s)/Children.  It is the only form that God will allow.  Pres. Monson could start sealing homosexual couples tomorrow and we could all shout hooray, and they still wouldn't be a family in the eternities, because that's not what an eternal family consists of.

 

All the debate in the world, all the love, tolerance and acceptance in the world, all the laws passed in the world cannot make something exist that doesn't.  And when the next life is here, they would find themselves separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition (possibly), to all eternity.

Edited by JLHPROF

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“If they could get away with it”? Are you talking about abduction here? There is that thing called “adoption” that is legally available to SS couples in many areas.

There you go. One of the best ways to get away with something is to make it legal, or induce others to make it legal for you.

You might also explain to him that with an opposite sex companion (since he is attracted to males), he would likely live a life void of true love and companionship, and that such a relationship has a high probability of ending badly. (See California Boy’s life experience as related by him in other threads).

I believe everybody should truly love everybody while showing that love in the best ways possible, which sometimes means to not have sexual relations with someone.

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rockpond, the damage you spoke of that the gay person you counseled felt and condemnation, isn't that the same condemnation that men who have pre martial sex with women feel since it's also a sin?

 

No.  This young man was someone who had been and was currently obeying the law of chastity.

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When people can and do enter and leave such unions at will, even after having children, then yes, it's arbitrary.

 

Ah . . . you judge human institutions by the failures of the individuals inside the institution, and ignore their successes.

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rockpond, then if they were obeying the law of chastity it's sad that they were treated in such a way. We need to be more loving and understanding with all our members.

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But there their increase would end....aka, damnation.

Not if their adopted children have or adopt children of their own.

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Just because you love somebody or something isnt justification for making the practice right.

This is true..but and however, it is not OUR place to judge..or say that someone is unfit to love because that is how they feel! 

The expression of love is a human trait. 

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Ah . . . you judge human institutions by the failures of the individuals inside the institution, and ignore their successes.

I don't think that's necessarily a failure. That just makes it an arbitrary distinction, and there are plenty of parental success stories among the unmarried.

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Not if their adopted children have or adopt children of their own.

 

Doesn't work.  Sorry.

 

Look, let's say I agreed that homosexuals were born that way, that homosexuals should be allowed to marry, that the Church should fully allow and integrate homosexual couples, and basically agree with you on all of this.

 

It does nothing to change the eternal order.  Reality is not a democracy.  Families in the eternities can only exist as the laws of the universe allow them to.  Even Heavenly Father can't change that.  Worlds without end, the family is the family, and homosexual pairings will not be allowed to exist.

Male and Female are the eternal opposites bound together.  They produce more males and females and raise them to take their place.  God demonstrates this in his life too.

 

Our opinion means NOTHING because what actually is can't be changed.  Ever.  Period.

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I don't think that's necessarily a failure. That just makes it an arbitrary distinction, and there are plenty of parental success stories among the unmarried.

 

Divorce is, if nothing else, a failure.

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