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Daniel2

Polygamy Criminalization Ruled Unconstitutional

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The only Biblical rule concerning how many wives you can have is the ability to fairly care for all of them. You can take as many as you can equably take care of.

I didn't mean the OT itself said four, but that it was interpreted that way.

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OK? 

I believe what is happening is you think you know what I believe, and are responding to me based on what you think is in my mind.

I am sorry you have had bad experiences in life, we all have crappy things happen to us- the trick is in how you respond.

I pray you find the peace that you have so desperately sought all these years going from religion to religion. God loves you and is watching out for you... just trust Him.

I am not a mind reader and do not try. My beliefs are based upon what I think is important. I would classify myself as Muslim but don't engage in the dragging of an AK47 around. Mormons are nice people, but I will never be a proper one. It is not clear to me why I haven't simply trashed all religion as I can say with some certainty that all of them in my experience soon attempt to put bindings on your neck, to the exclusion of what God wants.

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 Mormons are nice people, but I will never be a proper one. 

 

Do you pray, read the scriptures (Koran), strive to live a ethical and moral life.  Muslims make great Mormons, especially those who do not carry an AK47.

 

But we can even work on that.  Just go deer hunting.

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Do you pray, read the scriptures (Koran), strive to live a ethical and moral life.  Muslims make great Mormons, especially those who do not carry an AK47.

 

But we can even work on that.  Just go deer hunting.

What a nice giggle before I head off to Sacrament. :) 

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Anyone ever seen the show Big Love?

No... I prefer "Sister Wives" with the Kody Brown family, over a fictional drama.

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When it comes to Book of Mormon polygamy, people focus too much on Jacob 2 where wicked men were no longer permitted to practice polygamy.

But the BOM has other examples - were the Jaredites polygamists for instance?:

Ether 1:40-41 describes the Brother of Jared having families but Jared have a family.

Not surprising since Ether 6:20 says that the Brother of Jared had 22 children, where Jared had but 12. The more righteous Brother of Jared lived the higher law and was able to part the veil by his faith.

Jacob 2:23-24 makes it clear that it was the polygamy like David (with Bathsheba) and Solomon (with his strange wives) that God disapproved of. He says clearly that they had misunderstood the scriptures.

And verses 31-32 tell WHY God outlawed polygamy. Not because it wasn't the standard or it was wrong but because the men were treating their wives like crap.

Culturally and historically polygamy was the norm until that pagan example of a Roman empire stopped it. Even after the Apostolic times and the Roman Empire was replaced by the Holy Roman Empire it was the combining of the cultures that gave us monogamy as the standard. God had nothing to do with the establishment of monogamy as a standard. Whenever as in Jacob 2 God requires monogamy it is because the people were unworthy or unwilling to live polygamy. Monogamy is tithing to polygamy's law of consecration.

It might have been the norm until women started getting some rights!

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If there was ever a time when polygamy could have been a good alternative it was after WW1  and WW2. The following is a link to an article that speaks of the serious excess of women after the wars and what became of many of them. Be warned. Mature content.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-481882/Condemned-virgins-The-million-women-robbed-war.html

Sigh!  Guess I was born in the wrong era. :huh::unknw::rofl:

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Yay! It is time to leave those families alone and focus on real crimes.

Bigamy is a crime...as a victim of a low-life bio-father who married another woman with whom he fathered a child and when my mother found out let us homeless. Your comment is insulting.

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Bigamy is a crime...as a victim of a low-life bio-father who married another woman with whom he fathered a child and when my mother found out let us homeless. Your comment is insulting.

 

Comparing polygamy, where everyone involved is aware and consenting, to bigamy, where a man deceives several women- is, quite frankly, insulting.

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Comparing polygamy, where everyone involved is aware and consenting, to bigamy, where a man deceives several women- is, quite frankly, insulting.

 

To be bigamy no deceit need be involved.  It is "the act of going through a marriage ceremony while already married to another person".  Polygamy would fall under the definition of bigamy.

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To be bigamy no deceit need be involved.  It is "the act of going through a marriage ceremony while already married to another person".  Polygamy would fall under the definition of bigamy.

Please, be intellectually honest enough to acknowledge the difference between what PaPa is speaking of and polygamy. 

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We need to be a little clearer here in our terms.  "Bigamy" is being married under the law to two living people at the same time.  "Bigamy" does not include being married to one living person and cohabitating with another living person at the same time.  The case therefore had nothing to do with "bigamy".  Second, Muslims didn't invent polygamy -- polygamy has been around probably ever since humans started calling themselves humans in whatever language they used.  According to most evolutionary scientists homo sapiens are "mildly" polygamist by the way they are hard-wired, so it is not really surprising that polygamy is so old and that it has been the norm longer than it has been the exception.  The Roman Pagans were the first major promoters of monogamy which is more of a Roman tradition than a Christian tradition, but Romans had other sexual traditions that we would find perverted which they adopted from the Greeks.  Given we normally give the Greeks the credit for modern western civilization -- my guess would be that most of our sexual mores today are more cultural driven than anything else.  We Mormons actually have a religious explanation for our marriage traditions, which puts them ahead of most religions.

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Please, be intellectually honest enough to acknowledge the difference between what PaPa is speaking of and polygamy. 

 

Oh agree that what Pa Pa was speaking is not equivalent to ideal polygamy.  However, you are comparing worst case scenarios to best case scenarios.  What you should be comparing is best case to best case and worst case to worst case.  So now will you be intellectually honest enough to admit that by definition they are both bigamy and when you make comparisons to compare apples to apples. 

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Comparing polygamy, where everyone involved is aware and consenting, to bigamy, where a man deceives several women- is, quite frankly, insulting.

Guess you need to view from my perspective. Let us hope that you are indeed a Book of Mormon Lover and have the same distain for polygamy that it does.

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Pa Pa,  so the early leaders of the Church had a disdain for the Book of Mormon -- am confused.

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Guess you need to view from my perspective. Let us hope that you are indeed a Book of Mormon Lover and have the same distain for polygamy that it does.

 

I have disdain for lustful desires that cause men to practice it unrighteously- breaking the hearts of their wives and children.

I do not have disdain for the general practice when entered into thoughtfully and prayerfully, with the approval and support of all those involved in the decision.

Your post is incredibly ironic...

A LDS guy telling an "RLDS" guy that he doesn't disapprove of polygamy enough and referencing the Book of Mormon to do it.

I feel like I am in a parallel universe.

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I have disdain for lustful desires that cause men to practice it unrighteously- breaking the hearts of their wives and children.

I do not have disdain for the general practice when entered into thoughtfully and prayerfully, with the approval and support of all those involved in the decision.

Your post is incredibly ironic...

A LDS guy telling an "RLDS" guy that he doesn't disapprove of polygamy enough and referencing the Book of Mormon to do it.

I feel like I am in a parallel universe.

Polygamy is almost always a tragedy...one only needs to read the OT to know it. The BoM echoes this. Even when it is necessary it still ends badly for women most of all.

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Polygamy is almost always a tragedy...one only needs to read the OT to know it. The BoM echoes this. Even when it is necessary it still ends badly for women most of all.

The OT generally tells stories of where people transgressed the law or creates a narrative that explains conflict between nations and groups of people so it should be hardly surprising that we hear a lot about conflicting and dysfunctional relationship.

I don't know however if one should approach the scriptures as if they were a snapshot of a typical day in the life of a typical resident of the MiddleEast etc.

Not always true about being a tragedy...the second wife of one of my ancestor was became an invalid after childbirth, her son having died as well. Not only was she lovingly taken care of by the first wife, but from what I read she got to be a very important part of the children's life as well. If she had been a monogamous wife, she might have not been able to get the care she needed to survive given her husband would have needed to work to provide for the both of them and their family would have been sadly diminished.

It is hard, but so was monogamy on women not so long ago (and unfortunately still is on some).

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The OT generally tells stories of where people transgressed the law or creates a narrative that explains conflict between nations and groups of people so it should be hardly surprising that we hear a lot about conflicting and dysfunctional relationship.

I don't know however if one should approach the scriptures as if they were a snapshot of a typical day in the life of a typical resident of the MiddleEast etc.

Not always true about being a tragedy...the second wife of one of my ancestor was became an invalid after childbirth, her son having died as well. Not only was she lovingly taken care of by the first wife, but from what I read she got to be a very important part of the children's life as well. If she had been a monogamous wife, she might have not been able to get the care she needed to survive given her husband would have needed to work to provide for the both of them and their family would have been sadly diminished.

It is hard, but so was monogamy on women not so long ago (and unfortunately still is on some).

Agreed, God may require or allow such behavior, but once fulfilled one cannot move quickly enough to the ideal of one wife one husband. In "any age", I am a one woman man. Any other life is not for me.

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Polygamy is almost always a tragedy...one only needs to read the OT to know it. The BoM echoes this. Even when it is necessary it still ends badly for women most of all.

While the Book of Mormon does teach of this, I don't think you can necessarily generalize from the few OT stories we have given that it was the predominant form of marriages for thousands of years in both the East and the West, and fairly common in pre Columbian times in the New World as well.

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Pa Pa,  so the early leaders of the Church had a disdain for the Book of Mormon -- am confused.

I was speaking of Jacob's take in the Book of Mormon on the issue. This may have been why it took Joseph 14 years to allow the writing and printing of D&C 132...and then only at Hyrum's insistence. One thing to note at that time Joseph still had possession of the U&T, which suggests so do we are the RLDS.

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It was my understanding the delay was to do with his fear of Emma's reaction, which from most accounts appears justified. Ironically. Hyrum's descendants are the ones that held true to the Faith.

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Agreed, God may require or allow such behavior, but once fulfilled one cannot move quickly enough to the ideal of one wife one husband. In "any age", I am a one woman man. Any other life is not for me.

Ah. But when you die God will magically change you so you will want multiple wives. He will fix you so you will eternally live a celestial marriage with all of your new wives.

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Do you pray, read the scriptures (Koran), strive to live a ethical and moral life.  Muslims make great Mormons, especially those who do not carry an AK47.

 

But we can even work on that.  Just go deer hunting.

And so what the heck is wrong with an AK-47? Marvelous machines. Everyone should have at least one. With certain exceptions, of course. I am sad that I do not own one.

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