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Should Apostles And Prophets Be More Open With Their Mistakes?


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It seems to me a lot of people that leave the church can't live up to the "perfect" standard that they view everyone else in. That can give the feeling to some members, especially converts that they feel like they are the worst Mormon in the room because of their past or past mistakes. Should Bishops and apostles in talks, bring up their past problems, such as a possible porn addiction that was overcome to help show that even the apostles are not perfect and that no one is perfect to better help others understand we are all human. Or does doing this just add fuel to the fire of opposition trying to claim we as Mormons are bad people. I know that if I am ever made an apostle or prophet that I will openly admit my past to help others see that not everyone's perfect and to hang in there, you're not alone.

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It seems to me a lot of people that leave the church can't live up to the "perfect" standard that they view everyone else in. That can give the feeling to some members, especially converts that they feel like they are the worst Mormon in the room because of their past or past mistakes. Should Bishops and apostles in talks, bring up their past problems, such as a possible porn addiction that was overcome to help show that even the apostles are not perfect and that no one is perfect to better help others understand we are all human. Or does doing this just add fuel to the fire of opposition trying to claim we as Mormons are bad people. I know that if I am ever made an apostle or prophet that I will openly admit my past to help others see that not everyone's perfect and to hang in there, you're not alone.

I've been to a good number of services in other faiths. I haven't heard it in Catholic services, nor have I heard it from Islamic acquaintences, but many protestant believers openly proclaim their past sins, almost with, dare I say it, relish. The more depraved as a sinner you have been, the more glorious the salvation.

Nor is it common in Mormon services or testimonies to glory in past indescretions. It isn't "kosher".

So will Mormon leadership declare past errors...? Naah.

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Hmm that's a shame because I know converts or members who have left the church and even people who refuse to join because they can't live up to the expectations of perfection.

 

Assuming that is the real or predominate reason behind their actions, then they are imposing their own false expectations of perfection on the Church. As such, I don't know that the Church can or should do anything about such errant impositions. The mistake lies within them, and so they are the one's that need to do something about it, and this for their own sake, though I can see it being done.

 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

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I've been to a good number of services in other faiths. I haven't heard it in Catholic services, nor have I heard it from Islamic acquaintences, but many protestant believers openly proclaim their past sins, almost with, dare I say it, relish. The more depraved as a sinner you have been, the more glorious the salvation.

Nor is it common in Mormon services or testimonies to glory in past indescretions. It isn't "kosher".

So will Mormon leadership declare past errors...? Naah.

Yet, the hero's of scripture speak often of their past iniquities. Imagine how short our scriptures would be if they had adopted the modern "don't speak of your past" policy.

I'm with VGJ on this one.

Edited by BookofMormonLuvr
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It seems to me a lot of people that leave the church can't live up to the "perfect" standard that they view everyone else in. That can give the feeling to some members, especially converts that they feel like they are the worst Mormon in the room because of their past or past mistakes. Should Bishops and apostles in talks, bring up their past problems, such as a possible porn addiction that was overcome to help show that even the apostles are not perfect and that no one is perfect to better help others understand we are all human. Or does doing this just add fuel to the fire of opposition trying to claim we as Mormons are bad people. I know that if I am ever made an apostle or prophet that I will openly admit my past to help others see that not everyone's perfect and to hang in there, you're not alone.

 

Why?  God himself said that once a sin is forgiven he will remember it no more.

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I know it's a crazy thought, but trust me, I've been there where I've felt like the worst Mormon in the room and like everyone else is perfect and worthy of eternal life, but me.

 

A limited amount of self deprecation is fine. It keeps us humble. However to take it so far as to claim you're the worst person, and not worthy, in the room works only if you're the only person in the room. We all have our strengths and weaknesses. Lend others your strengths, and let their strengths help you to overcome your weaknesses. 

 

The Church isn't a rest-home for the spiritually perfect, but an emergency room for the spiritually wounded.

Edited by thesometimesaint
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I would wonder if some wouldn't justify their own (future) bad behavior if leaders were to confess their sins over the pulpit.

Why didn't the great men of scriptures think of that?

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Yet, the hero's of scripture speak often of their past iniquities. Imagine how short our scriptures would be if they had adopted the modern "don't speak of your past" policy.

I'm with VGJ on this one.

 

Actually a lot of the scriptures take on that approach.  We know Alma and his group were the vilest of sinners, but we really don't know what that means.  We know that Enos had prayerful repentance, but don't know what he has to repent about.  

 

I kind of think of it like a marriage and the MIL. Couples should take their grievances to each other and the Lord.  When the daughter goes to her mom and airs the shortcoming of her husband it makes it harder for the mom, who loves her daughter, to think well of the husband.  Time and time again I have heard stories where a daughter has done this and made up with her husband and the mom struggles to let go of it it long after she was told.  I imagine there will be many members who would also have a hard time getting over what a GA did. 

 

I think also, if GAs were to start listing their sins there would be many who say, "President Eyring sins like I do so I must be in good company" and then may be slower in their repentance process. 

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Actually a lot of the scriptures take on that approach.  We know Alma and his group were the vilest of sinners, but we really don't know what that means.  We know that Enos had prayerful repentance, but don't know what he has to repent about.  

 

I kind of think of it like a marriage and the MIL. Couples should take their grievances to each other and the Lord.  When the daughter goes to her mom and airs the shortcoming of her husband it makes it harder for the mom, who loves her daughter, to think well of the husband.  Time and time again I have heard stories where a daughter has done this and made up with her husband and the mom struggles to let go of it it long after she was told.  I imagine there will be many members who would also have a hard time getting over what a GA did. 

 

I think also, if GAs were to start listing their sins there would be many who say, "President Eyring sins like I do so I must be in good company" and then may be slower in their repentance process. 

I see it completely different then you. I believe that acknowledging past transgressions will help the repentance process, showing the person that they CAN change, they can be forgiven, they can move forward- instead of satan convincing them "Well, you did it this time pal. You can never be forgiven or make anything of yourself now. You should just give up."

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I should make an edition of the Book of Mormon that follows the "don't talk about your past" idea. It would probably make it easier for some folks to get through.

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I remember talks where leaders have talk about struggles with testimonies and some weaknesses. I think as far as sharing sins that should be done within a smaller community setting where people know one more than just seeing a leader give an occasional talk across the pulpit, where one has the chance to speak one on one with someone, get to know them on a personal level so that they have a more complete understanding of the individual and the context for sharing.

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This would be just great.  We always hear about well.."they are not infallible" ..but it would bring alittle more humanity and probably alot of hope to those who are trying so hard to aspire to something and feel like they are failing all the time.  Just my IMO.

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I believe that someone admitting they (have) struggled with tithing, the word of wisdom, chastity, Sabbath-day worship, etc is fine. I believe that describing the sorrow, anguish, and difficulty in overcoming sin is fine. I believe that step-by-step description of how they committed the sin is where we should draw the line.

 

Where we see this in the Book of Mormon we get descriptions of the sorrow, anguish, pride, and difficulty associated with sinning and repenting. We see Alma telling people that he once destroyed the Church, and was the murderer of people's souls. We hear him telling us of the anguish that this sinful life brought. We do not get a play-by-play of him tearing someone's testimony apart. Were a General Authority, a Missionary, a Relief Society President, or Bishop to stand at the pulpit and say "my past mistakes with regards to keeping the commandments, like the word of wisdom and chastity, were deceptive in the joy I thought they brought. It was with understanding the Gospel that I began to feel despair and that I felt lost", I wouldn't blink an eye.

 

If they were to say "my past mistakes with sin, such as drinking a 2.6 of vodka and sleeping constantly with a stripper that I had over my place over the duration of a week, brought me great sorrow" I would feel that it was inappropriate and distracting from the message or repentance. By the way, that actually happened in sacrament when I was a teenager, and I felt nothing but discomfort, as well as fascination more with the sin than the message of repentance.

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Yet, the hero's of scripture speak often of their past iniquities. Imagine how short our scriptures would be if they had adopted the modern "don't speak of your past" policy.

I'm with VGJ on this one.

 

This principle may come into play: "a prophet is without honor in his own country"--which I extrapolate to include the prophet's own culture, generation, time, etc.

 

It is one thing for us today to look back thousands of years and read about Judah having illegitimate relations with his sons wife (see HERE); while it is a whole different story to learn that a general authority in modern times sexually molested a young girl (see HERE), 

 

Some people seem to have no problem with Abraham having multiple wives, but convulse with outrage upon learning of Joseph Smith's plural marriages--and it wasn't even a sin in the eyes of the Church.

 

I suspect that not a few saints would be negatively influenced were they to learn that President Monson has long had cans of Coke in his fridge--assuming that were the case.

 

General Authorities nowadays have to be very careful of what they say given the propensity of members to take things to the extreme. For example, when it was announced some time back that one of the Saturday sessions of General Conference would no longer be devoted to personal preparedness and food storage, not a few members interpreted this to mean that the end was nigh, and they subsequently sold their homes and autos and other possessions and purchased storage items, and went up to Dream Mine to await the pending apocalypse.

 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-.

 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

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I once sat in one of those question and answer session with a general authority where someone asked the same kind of question.   His response was that the reason there were plenty of stories about mistakes in the scriptures is to avoid any possibility of embarrassing living people who make mistakes and deserve the space and support to fix them.  

 

Besides, if you've ever heard a teenager ask why they had to serve a mission since none of the first presidency did (don't know if that is true with this first presidency), you know that the information doesn't make people more human, just gives others more excuses (the same excuses when children learn about their parents mistakes).

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It seems to me a lot of people that leave the church can't live up to the "perfect" standard that they view everyone else in. That can give the feeling to some members, especially converts that they feel like they are the worst Mormon in the room because of their past or past mistakes. Should Bishops and apostles in talks, bring up their past problems, such as a possible porn addiction that was overcome to help show that even the apostles are not perfect and that no one is perfect to better help others understand we are all human. Or does doing this just add fuel to the fire of opposition trying to claim we as Mormons are bad people. I know that if I am ever made an apostle or prophet that I will openly admit my past to help others see that not everyone's perfect and to hang in there, you're not alone.

One only need look at their own life and ask; should I dwell on my mistakes or my triumphs? If on my mistakes, I fear more mistakes, until all that happens within my life are even more.
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I see it completely different then you. I believe that acknowledging past transgressions will help the repentance process, showing the person that they CAN change, they can be forgiven, they can move forward- instead of satan convincing them "Well, you did it this time pal. You can never be forgiven or make anything of yourself now. You should just give up."

Lol. No you don't. I know SOME people are like I described and SOME people are like you describe, though I feel most are like Halcenero describes in which knowing what the sin was would be a distraction to them.

One of my friends was as you described. I remember when she found out someone in ward leadership had done the same thing she had done and was thrilled that meant maybe she wasn't worthless after all. The person was quite embarrassed about it, but much of that had to do with my friend announcing how she felt better about it over the pulpit.

I was just stating one reason for keeping it quiet.

Halcenero - excellent summary of just what is and isn't in the scriptures.

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Video - I used to. More often though I think of people looking down on me. I've found that it happens more when I need to strengthen my relationship with Christ. Not saying that that is why you feel that way - just a sign for me. The older I get the less the feelings come so hopefully that means I am improving.

Edited by Rain
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