Critics Accusations Of Financial Improprieties

[ERayR]

 They answer to the Lord, not to us, for their faithfulness in that regard.

 

As it should be.  This is his church, not ours.

[Analytics]

Are you seriously asserting that the Church must account for use of its funds to people who do not donate and in fact take an adversarial stance toward the Church and its leaders and members.

 

This is absolutely ridiculous on its face.

 

Can't tell what's driving your thinking on this. Perhaps just one more example of the Entitlement Generation run amok.

 

Mainstream Christian churches do just that.  About 1,900 churches belong to the Evangelical Council of Financial Accountability.  Members of that organization are required to provide detailed, audited financial statements to anyone who asks.

 

 

 

Financial disclosure is not only an accepted, expected, and required form of accountability in society at large, but it also represents the even higher standard of openness for Christ-centered organizations. It may be true that public disclosure of financial information is required, in part, to protect the donor public. While this is the reason most often given to justify governmental regulation, the reputation of Christ-centered ministries in general is at stake.

 

Public disclosure protects Christian ministry from the danger of claiming ownership of God’s gifts. It also protects us from the temptation to acquire assets as our lasting goal. Furthermore, the availability of financial statements promotes responsible Christian stewardship over assets as donors seek to make monetary investments in the work of the Kingdom.

 

 

http://www.ecfa.org/Content/Comment5

Edited August 6, 2014 by Analytics

[thesometimesaint]

Your statement is correct to a degree.  The IRS is the go-between for a non-member to be assured that monies are being spent in accordance to the laws pertaining to non-profit.  But, the church WILL NOT account for the use of its funds to even members who do not take an adversarial stance.

 

 

But then again.  The IRS......  Well there's an entity with standards and integrity,  or lack there of.

 

I see the accounting every time I walk into a Church building, The lights work; The HVAC works(Sometimes too well); The pews, classrooms, cultural center, walls, floors are clean and in good repair; The books, and other materials are plentiful and in good repair. I am no longer asked to support a Ward budget. The list of things goes on and on where I see the accounting to me as done.

[Scott Lloyd]

Mainstream Christian churches do just that.  About 1,900 churches belong to the Evangelical Council of Financial Accountability.  Members of that organization are required to provide detailed, audited financial statements to anyone who asks.

 

 

 

 

 

http://www.ecfa.org/Content/Comment5

The Church of Jesus Christ, while professing to be Christian in the purest sense, that being it is the very Church Christ Himself founded, does not claim to be in the category that you call "mainstream Christian churches" nor does it aspire to be like them except in the sense of the 13th Article of Faith, which says we seek after whatever is virtuous, lovely or of good report or praiseworthy.

 

Richard Bushman once commented on what he called "the routinization of charisma" in Mormonism:

 

"How can we account for the success of this lay-led Church, which seems to run against all expectations?" Brother Bushman asked. He said that its genius can be largely explained in the fact that the expectation of divine revelation has been built into the very administrative structure and offices of the Church, an expectation attributable to the Prophet himself.

"Latter-day Saints know in their bones that only leadership based on righteousness and spirituality will work," Brother Bushman said, every new office holder knows it, and that, in itself, provides a check on the abuse of power within the Church.

 

And I would add that it is this quality that provides a check on the abuse of financial resources as well. It has worked pretty well throughout the Church's history.

 

We don't need to account to antagonists and critics.

Edited August 6, 2014 by Scott Lloyd

[thesometimesaint]

Mainstream Christian churches do just that.  About 1,900 churches belong to the Evangelical Council of Financial Accountability.  Members of that organization are required to provide detailed, audited financial statements to anyone who asks.

 

http://www.ecfa.org/Content/Comment5

 

Ask me sometime about PTL's Jim and Tammy Baker.

[ERayR]

I see the accounting every time I walk into a Church building, The lights work; The HVAC works(Sometimes too well); The pews, classrooms, cultural center, walls, floors are clean and in good repair; The books, and other materials are plentiful and in good repair. I am no longer asked to support a Ward budget. The list of things goes on and on where I see the accounting to me as done.

 

And if you are a Bishop or a clerk that twice yearly audit.

[thesometimesaint]

And if you are a Bishop or a clerk that twice yearly audit.

 

I've never been a Bishop. I don't want the job either.

[sdc999]

For much of Church leadership it is just a stipend. These are nearly always older gentlemen that are retired or very near retirement. They don't depend on stipend just to make ends meet. I don't believe the Lord expects us to be poor. Poverty is not a sin, but get rid of it as fast as you can.

 

We really are a lay ministry. No one gets paid for preaching the Restored Gospel. The GA's are "paid" for working for the Church in their non-preaching matters.

I think that is an assumption on your part unless you have references.  "They don't depend on stipend just to make ends meet."   If so, why then accept the stipen?    Semantics.  Doing the Lord's work - but only if I get paid.    

[Scott Lloyd]

Your statement is correct to a degree.  The IRS is the go-between for a non-member to be assured that monies are being spent in accordance to the laws pertaining to non-profit.  But, the church WILL NOT account for the use of its funds to even members who do not take an adversarial stance.

 

 

But then again.  The IRS......  Well there's an entity with standards and integrity,  or lack there of.

Gervin's assertion was not referring to the Church being accountable to members alone but to everyone including, presumably, the most vicious anti-Mormon.

 

I say again, it's ridiculous on its face.

[Analytics]

The Church of Jesus Christ, while professing to be Christian in the purest sense, that being it is the very Church Christ Himself founded, does not claim to be in the category that you call "mainstream Christian churches" nor does it aspire to be like them except in the sense of the 13th Article of Faith, which says we seek after whatever is virtuous, lovely or of good report or praiseworthy.

 

That's my point.  According to mainstream ethics, it is virtuous, lovely, of good report, and praiseworthy for organizations that seek charitable donations to practice financial transparency.

[Scott Lloyd]

That's my point.  According to mainstream ethics, it is virtuous, lovely, of good report, and praiseworthy for organizations that seek charitable donations to practice financial transparency.

They're welcome to run their own shops as they see fit, but neither they nor you get to decide for us what constitutes being praiseworthy as applied to our unique circumstances.

[Vance]

Accountability, by its act, includes anyone who wants to know how tithes and donations are spent.

Really?

So those who have no business knowing are entitled to know?

Ok, then, you are accountable, post all of your financial information. Don't tell me it is private and that I have no business asking for it. I want to know.

[Scott Lloyd]

For any who might be interested, Daniel Peterson has this blog post on the subject of critics' tiresome and self-righteous indignation over the City Creek shopping center. It seems to pertain in a general way to this thread topic, so I'm posting the link here.

Edited August 6, 2014 by Scott Lloyd

[sdc999]

Really?

So those who have no business knowing are entitled to know?

Ok, then, you are accountable, post all of your financial information. Don't tell me it is private and that I have no business asking for it. I want to know.

I agree.  Gervin needs to show his/her financials.  Wait!  Is Gervin asking to be tax exempt and not pay his fair share of support for running the country like everyone else?  Oh, Gervin doesn't get special financial exempt privileges  from the Gov't. ?  

Right now, the law doesn't mandate that Exempt organizations open their books.  I would like to see that happen across the board at some point though.  

[sdc999]

A related question:  Do those in the church that receive a stipend have to pay taxes on the stipend they receive or is that tax exempt as well?

[rpn]

This no doubt varies from country to country.  And it probably varies depending on whether it is amount the person receives or gets to spend.     

[ERayR]

That's my point.  According to mainstream ethics, it is virtuous, lovely, of good report, and praiseworthy for organizations that seek charitable donations to practice financial transparency.

 

Why. It has been my experience that the vast majority of those who donate have trust and faith that the GA's will handle those sacred funds wisely and honestly.  It seems that those crying for disclosure are trying to find something to criticize. 

[Vance]

A related question:  Do those in the church that receive a stipend have to pay taxes on the stipend they receive or is that tax exempt as well?

I don't know for sure.

BUT!!

I suspect that to the IRS "stipend" = "income".

[Ahab]

These are generally older gentlemen, and with all the kind thoughts I have for them. I don't want them out driving themselves on the roads.

Very sweet thought. Thank you for caring. I offer free rides to anyone I know who I think is too old to drive too.

[ERayR]

I agree.  Gervin needs to show his/her financials.  Wait!  Is Gervin asking to be tax exempt and not pay his fair share of support for running the country like everyone else?  Oh, Gervin doesn't get special financial exempt privileges  from the Gov't. ?  

Right now, the law doesn't mandate that Exempt organizations open their books.  I would like to see that happen across the board at some point though.  

 

Want to bet?  I am confident that were I able to look over his/her tax return I would be able to find a special tax exemption or two.

[ERayR]

A related question:  Do those in the church that receive a stipend have to pay taxes on the stipend they receive or is that tax exempt as well?

 

They have to file a tax return and pay taxes.

[Duncan]

Didn't Elder Perry say in a recent GC address that he and his family live in a condo somewhere? I definately think someone should call Robin Leach, the host of Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous, over that one!

[Analytics]

Why. It has been my experience that the vast majority of those who donate have trust and faith that the GA's will handle those sacred funds wisely and honestly.  It seems that those crying for disclosure are trying to find something to criticize. 

 

I'm simply stating the facts about mainstream ethics in our society.

 

If you'd like to know "why", the following link will get you going in the right direction:

 

https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=financial+transparency+in+churches

 

Another good link is here:

 

http://www.councilofnonprofits.org/resources/resources-topic/ethics-accountability/cultivating-culture-accountability-and-transparency

 

Among CPA-types, this is not contraversial.

 

Of course the legal standards in America regarding the transparency of non-profits are below these higher ethical standards, and it should go without saying that the church is within its legal rights to go with the lower legal standard.  Furthermore, anybody is free to chose to donate or not to donate as they see fit.

Edited August 6, 2014 by Analytics

[Analytics]

I'm simply stating the facts about mainstream ethics in our society.

 

If you'd like to know "why", the following link will get you going in the right direction:

 

https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=financial+transparency+in+churches

 

Another good link is here:

 

http://www.councilofnonprofits.org/resources/resources-topic/ethics-accountability/cultivating-culture-accountability-and-transparency

 

Among CPA-types, this is not contraversial.

 

Of course the legal standards in America regarding the transparency of non-profits are below these higher ethical standards, and it should go without saying that the church is within its legal rights to go with the lower legal standard.  Furthermore, anybody is free to chose to donate or not to donate as they see fit.

 

I posted the Google link above before reading any of the hits.  I had confidence that the links would support my position because again, it isn't a contraversial position.

 

The third page of the hits had a blog written by a tithing-paying Mormon about his thoughts on transparency.  For your consideration:

 

http://www.modernmormonmen.com/2012/03/financial-transparency-lds-church.html

[Garden Girl]

I remember in one of the umpteen threads criticizing the Church's finanacial  policies, and the payment general authorities receive, that someone brought up Pres Hinckley's residence as being a modest home in a modest neighborhoood, well kept and attractive, but certainly not what one would consider elaborate... and that he had lived in it for  years.

But I hear nary a word about the TV evangelists that have private jets, and acres of land surrounding their large estate-style homes... it doesn't matter, but I weary of the double standard...

 

GG