Critics Accusations Of Financial Improprieties

[bjw]

I wanted to run something by you guys that was in the anti video that I mentioned in another post about church history. I won't post the link here because it contains temple content, but I'm sure you have heard this all before. I noticed some contradictions the reasoning so I thought I would like to see what you think.

The video claimed the bretheren, including the Q12, FP, and other top leaders are the highest paid clergy in the world. They claim that not only do our leaders get paid homes, transportation, and huge salaries, but their families own the construction firms and other vendors the church uses when building temples, chapels, malls, and various projects, overcharging the church and dividing the money. Then, they sit on imaginary boards of various church owned companies to collect large salaries.

In the midst of all of these charges, the accuser claims the LDS church is very secretive and will show nobody financial statements or give an account of how any funds are spent. If this is true, how does the accuser know these accusations are true? Does he have a spy who knows more than the members?

These things were in the same video that claimed the Rosicrucians had a role in the founding of the church, Book of Mormon coming from John Dee's Book of Madog, and Cochranites bringing polygamy to the church.

While I do have a solid testimony and some corruption in the church would not change that, I would like to know the real story behind this. Are the brethren really the highest paid clergy in the world? How can our critics claim to know this stuff without examining financials. It doesn't seem like a church as large as ours could get away with any corruption with so much scrutiny from government and other outside organizations.

I always heard the full time church officials get a modest stipend, housing, and transportation, but nothing too elaborate. Any thoughts?

[thesometimesaint]

Many in the upper leadership of the Church were/are of independent means. They volunteer their time and efforts in the Church. If how they dress is any indication, and it usually is, I'd put their average income in the upper middle class range. The next GC look at the suites they wear. They are nice, but not that nice. I'd guess in the $500 range. These are generally older gentlemen, and with all the kind thoughts I have for them. I don't want them out driving themselves on the roads.

[Duncan]

if you ask me the brethren of the 1970's and into the 1980's dressed like they were put together by a committee

[halconero]

Until President Monson's view is this (and the room unseen behind him is filled with gorgeous Renaissance art):

 

 

I think we should take any such argument with a grain of salt.

[Thinking]

Many in the upper leadership of the Church were/are of independent means.

 

CFR

[Hamba Tuhan]

People who simply can't wrap their minds around genuine faith inevitably cast about looking for alternative motivations: since Church leaders, presumably, must know they're engaged in a fraud, then what keeps them going? The accusation reveals far more about the thought processes of those making it than it does about Church finances.

[The Nehor]

The video claimed the bretheren, including the Q12, FP, and other top leaders are the highest paid clergy in the world. They claim that not only do our leaders get paid homes, transportation, and huge salaries, but their families own the construction firms and other vendors the church uses when building temples, chapels, malls, and various projects, overcharging the church and dividing the money. Then, they sit on imaginary boards of various church owned companies to collect large salaries.

In the midst of all of these charges, the accuser claims the LDS church is very secretive and will show nobody financial statements or give an account of how any funds are spent. If this is true, how does the accuser know these accusations are true? Does he have a spy who knows more than the members?

These things were in the same video that claimed the Rosicrucians had a role in the founding of the church, Book of Mormon coming from John Dee's Book of Madog, and Cochranites bringing polygamy to the church.

 

I wish I lived in a world where people who are either this deliberately ignorant or outright liars in their rantings were excluded from society like lepers and we felt no need to investigate their other claims once they were confirmed to be liars.

[bjw]

People who simply can't wrap their minds around genuine faith inevitably cast about looking for alternative motivations: since Church leaders, presumably, must know they're engaged in a fraud, then what keeps them going? The accusation reveals far more about the thought processes of those making it than it does about Church finances.

Especially the part about the secret financials, yet they claim to know what the leadership makes.

[thesometimesaint]

CFR

 

http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/topic/quorum-of-the-twelve-apostles

[Gervin]

People who simply can't wrap their minds around genuine faith inevitably cast about looking for alternative motivations: since Church leaders, presumably, must know they're engaged in a fraud, then what keeps them going? The accusation reveals far more about the thought processes of those making it than it does about Church finances.

 

I can't get my mind around an organization that wouldn't recognize that genuineness - the type that might lead someone to a genuine faith - might begin with accountability in all things.  

 

Here are a few apostate evangelical ministries that understand that the money isn't theirs, so everything should all be out in the open:

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evangelical_Council_for_Financial_Accountability

[guerreiro9]

CFR

While none of them are likely to rival Bill Gates anytime soon, they all come from respectable professions and given the church's stance on fiscal responsibility probably all saved money for a rainy day.

Just in the Quorum of the 12 alone their are multiple PhDs, Multiple MBAs from Harvard, A Surgeon, A Nuclear Engineer, a few additional lawyers, and a state supreme court justice.

I don't know what your net worth cut off is for "of independent means", but this is sufficient for me.

-guerreiro9

[saemo]

Until President Monson's view is this (and the room unseen behind him is filled with gorgeous Renaissance art):

 

 

I think we should take any such argument with a grain of salt.

None of which is the Pope's. :-) The Pope receives no salary, but then he doesn't pay for any thing. Catholic donations feed and clothe him. We're good with this.

[Gervin]

None of which is the Pope's. :-) The Pope receives no salary, but then he doesn't pay for any thing. Catholic donations feed and clothe him. We're good with this.

 

and he seems to humbled by the magnitude of that in his choice of digs 

[Thinking]

http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/topic/quorum-of-the-twelve-apostles

 

Identifying their professions does not indicate if they are of independent means.

[Thinking]

While none of them are likely to rival Bill Gates anytime soon, they all come from respectable professions and given the church's stance on fiscal responsibility probably all saved money for a rainy day.

Just in the Quorum of the 12 alone their are multiple PhDs, Multiple MBAs from Harvard, A Surgeon, A Nuclear Engineer, a few additional lawyers, and a state supreme court justice.

I don't know what your net worth cut off is for "of independent means", but this is sufficient for me.

-guerreiro9

 

Saving money for a rainy day is not the same as having enough money to last for the rest of your life.

[guerreiro9]

Saving money for a rainy day is not the same as having enough money to last for the rest of your life.

What are you looking for? You seem to have something in mind that hasn't been provided or you are just being contrary for contraries sake.

-guerreiro9

[Duncan]

I couldn't care less if the Q12 got money to live, I doubt they make a million bucks a year. They probably have charge accounts at major stores and they get reviewed i'm sure. I know Elder Marion Hanks of the Seventy was in a rest home due to his ill health in his declining years and I would hope the Church foot the bill for that, he gave them his life the least they could give him is that

[Stone holm]

I don't find the allegations credible, with few exceptions the Church recruits from the successful upper middle class usually from the professions or business. Not sure that applied to President Monson, but is generally the case. I don't begrudge them stipends if they need it. You don't hear of any living luxuriously, at least I haven't.

[sunstoned]

Especially the part about the secret financials, yet they claim to know what the leadership makes.

This all could be avoided if the church was a little more transparent with the funds and donations they receive.

[strappinglad]

The Church has several for profit corporations under its umbrella. Church leaders sit on the board of directors of these businesses and are paid for that work. The suggestion that these businesses are just shell companies is easily refuted by research into said entities.

[VideoGameJunkie]

I trust the church fully in what it does with my tithing and offering money.

[strappinglad]

This all could be avoided if the church was a little more transparent with the funds and donations they receive.

Every critical worm would come out of the woodwork with comments about how THEY would better spend the money. Most such people have little to no knowledge of how to run and maintain a solvent business. (We need look no further than the Feds to see just how well they are guiding the US economy.) Oops, sorry, too political !

[bjw]

The Church has several for profit corporations under its umbrella. Church leaders sit on the board of directors of these businesses and are paid for that work. The suggestion that these businesses are just shell companies is easily refuted by research into said entities.

If this could be proven it would seem to violate the terms of being non profit. I'm sure it's illegal to collect money under non profit circumstances, purchase or operate for profit entities with the money, then pay yourself a high salary for your board activities in the company. I can't understand how the IRS and accounting regulating bodies are allowing it to happen if it is.

[Calm]

This isn't true anymore. The Church pays a stipend instead on having them on boards.

The stipend comes from the business income, not tithing:

http://en.fairmormon.org/Mormonism_and_church_finances/No_paid_ministry/General_Authorities_living_stipend

Edited August 6, 2014 by calmoriah

[Garden Girl]

While none of them are likely to rival Bill Gates anytime soon, they all come from respectable professions and given the church's stance on fiscal responsibility probably all saved money for a rainy day.

Just in the Quorum of the 12 alone their are multiple PhDs, Multiple MBAs from Harvard, A Surgeon, A Nuclear Engineer, a few additional lawyers, and a state supreme court justice.

I don't know what your net worth cut off is for "of independent means", but this is sufficient for me.

-guerreiro9

 

And, when he was alive, before Elder David Haight became an Apostle and Gen Authority, he was mayor of Palo Alto, CA, home of Stanford Univ, which I believe he resigned as Mayor to become a Gen Auth.  If he didn't resign, he finished out the term he was in and did not seek election again.

 

GG

Edited August 6, 2014 by Garden Girl