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Samurai Jack

The Trinity

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The Trinity is the only correct way to define God

vs.

God, Jesus and the Holy Ghost are separate beings

The trinity theory teaches that the Three are separate individual persons so there really is no conflict in the quote above.

Where the trinity theory falls down is that it claims the Three to be the same being/essence/God. There are no Bible verses for that. Note that johnny will not be able to provide any.

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BCSpace  writes,

The trinity theory teaches that the Three are separate individual persons so there really is no conflict in the quote above.

Their is a conflict ... three separate individual persons is not the same as three seperate beings. The Trinity reveals that their is one eternal being.

Where the trinity falls down is that is claims the Three to be the same being/essence/God. There are no Bible verses for that. Note that johnny will not be able to provide any.

Where Mormonism falls down is that Joseph Smith claimed three Gods. There are no Bible verses for that. Note that BCSpace will not be able to provide any.

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Would you like to see Jesus Christ when you get to heaven? Will you shake his hand or perhaps give him a hug?

Paul O

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Where Mormonism falls down is that Joseph Smith claimed three Gods. There are no Bible verses for that. Note that BCSpace will not be able to provide any.

Johnny was challanged to provide verses, but didn't. He could though. We all can. Whether it is the trinity or the LDS Godhead, it's still our collective and individual interpretation of scripture. Historical interpretation is irrelivant, if it were, the NT never would have been written and Jesus would have been written off as a false Prophet; which some do. Johnny claims support from church tradition (RCC) and we claim support in Latter Day Prophets. Johnny doesn't believe in Latter Day Prophets and we don't believe in the traditions of the RCC. And we each claim victory when we discuss the topic....ad nausium [sp].

All due respect, I'll will refrain from discussing this thread. I have children so I already repeat myself enough on a daily basis and no one listens.

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Would you like to see Jesus Christ when you get to heaven? Will you shake his hand or perhaps give him a hug?

Paul O

I'll be hugging him so tight, they'll probably have to pry my hands loose.

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Would you like to see Jesus Christ when you get to heaven? Will you shake his hand or perhaps give him a hug?

Paul O

When I get to heaven, it will be an indescribable eternal moment of being in God's glorious presence.

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Would you like to see Jesus Christ when you get to heaven? Will you shake his hand or perhaps give him a hug?

Paul O

I'll be hugging him so tight, they'll probably have to pry my hands loose.

Well you best get in line because I get to hug him first. :P

How about YOU Johnny? What are YOU going to do?

Paul O

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Would you like to see Jesus Christ when you get to heaven? Will you shake his hand or perhaps give him a hug?

Paul O

When I get to heaven, it will be an indescribable eternal moment of being in God's glorious presence.

That's nice but can you anwer the question about the hug?

Thanks.

Paul O

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Would you like to see Jesus Christ when you get to heaven? Will you shake his hand or perhaps give him a hug?

Paul O

I'll be hugging him so tight, they'll probably have to pry my hands loose.

Well you best get in line because I get to hug him first. :P

How about YOU Johnny? What are YOU going to do?

Paul O

After the hug, Johnny will give Jesus the link to his Anti-Mormon web site.

Just conjecture, of course.

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That's nice but can you anwer the question about the hug?

Thanks.

Paul O

You know...I have a picture in my home of Christ with outstretched arms and angels blowing horns on either side. It is a wonderful reminder of the welcome that I hope to receive when I get to heaven.

That being said...I don't think that I will physically be able to hug Christ. I do know that the love I will feel in His presence will surpass anything that I know today. Even greater than the best hug I have ever received.

Peace be with you Paul.

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LDS4EVER you forgot to provide the link again ...

Comparing Mormonism to the Bible

You're funny Johnny :unsure:

Anyways...

If God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are "three seperate beings", can I be my own Grandpa?

The first synonym for person in the thesaraus is being. <_< I know, I know, the English language is flawed. Define the difference without scripture though. Be Johnny, that way you can dumb things down for those not intelligent enough to understand what you mean. (Yupp thats me)

Another thing logically confusing is how The Son came to be if he is beggotten of the Father in the flesh. Does this mean that as God made us, in his own image, he made Jesus? What makes Jesus different, other than having the full power of God with him? ( sorry to keep bringing that up, I dont mean to ) Otherwise, if the Spirit of God and Jesus's spirit are one in the same, then how can they have seperate concious beings as they would need to be when Jesus lived on earth? :P

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Where Mormonism falls down is that Joseph Smith claimed three Gods. There are no Bible verses for that. Note that BCSpace will not be able to provide any.

LOL! See? johnny did not even try to provide a single verse saying that all Three are the same God. That's because he knows (and many Catholics have admitted) that they don't exist (the trinity theory being considered by them to be 'continuing revelation) On the other hand, I have numerous references for the plurality of Gods, both Bible and early Christian:

Gen 1:26 "And God said, let us make man in our image..." The Creator (Jesus Christ, not the Father as per Hebrews 1:3) is speaking to another God(s).

Gen 3:22 "Behold the man is become as one of us..."

Exodus 20:3-4 The first two of the Ten Commandments. The first commandment says not to have any other real and divine Gods (check your Hebrew Lexicon on "gods" in verse 3)

The second commandment says not to have any idol gods (check your Hebrew Lexicon on "graven image" in verse 4).

If the Plurality of Gods doctrine were false, then there is no need for the first commandment making only nine commandments in all.

Deuteronomy 32:8-9 NEB The Hebrews distinguished between the Gods EL (The Most High God) and Jehovah (The Lord, who is Jesus Christ) p.107

"When the Most High [EL] parceled out the nations, when he dispersed all mankind, he laid down the boundaries of every people according to the number of the sons of God; but the LORD's [Yahweh's] share was his own people, Jacob was his allotted portion. Deuteronomy 32:8-9

There are many other OT verses that make that same distinction.

Isaiah 9:6 Jesus is called God and Father BUT John 20:17 Jesus is NOT God THE Father

John 1:1 Jesus is God. BUT John 20:17 Jesus has a God

John 7:16 Jesus said the doctrine was not his but the Father's. If the trinity theory is true, then the doctrine would also be Jesus'.

Matthew 6:9 Jesus said (present tense) to pray to the Father in heaven. Not to himself (he was on the earth at the time).

Matthew 24:36 Only the Father knows when Jesus will come again.

John 17:11, 20-22 The ONLY Bible verse that describes how the Three are "one" and "in each other. One in purpose only.

Hebrews 1:3 Jesus' Godhood is an exact copy or replica of the Father's Godhood (check your Greek Lexicon for "express image" in that verse).

Hence, while the trinity theory DOES state that the Three are separate individual beings, the Bible contradicts the trinity theory saying that their "Godhood's" (nature or essence of Gods) are separate and not the same.

Hebrews 1:8 God the Father (a God) refers to Jesus Christ as a God (another God)

1 Corinthians 8:4-6 While there are idols AND real divine Gods, to us there is God the Father AND the Lord Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost. See Exodus 20:3-4 above...

Rev 1:5-6 KJV (and other versions as well) Jesus has made us kings and priests unto God AND his Father.

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And for johnny's sake, as I promised, here are early Christian references to the plurality of Gods:

Not only did many Christian writers identify Jesus with Yahweh, until the 5th century it was quite common to call Jesus either a "second God", the chief angel, or both. Similarly, it was made clear that the Holy Spirit occupies the third place.

Danielou, The Theology of Jewish Christianity, 146

For example, during the second century Justin Martyr wrote that the "first-begotten", the Logos, "is the first force after the Father": he is "a second God, second numerically but not in will," doing only the Father's pleasure.

Hatch, The Influence of Greek Ideas and Usages upon the Christian Church, 268

Then I replied, "I shall attempt to persuade you, since you have understood the Scriptures, [of the truth] of what I say, that there is, and that there is said to be, another God and Lord subject to the Maker of all things; who is also called an Angel..."

Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho 56, in ANF 1:223

In the same vein Hermas spoke of the angel of the prophetic Spirit and Jesus as the "glorious...angel" or "most venerable...angel"

The Pastor of Hermas, Commandment 11, in ANF 2:27-28

The Ascension of Isaiah referred to both Jesus and the Spirit as angels as well: "And I saw how my Lord worshipped, and the angel of the Holy Spirit, and how both together praised God."

Ascension of Isaiah, in TOB, 528

Finally, Clement of Alexandria referred to Jesus as the "Second Cause".

Clement of Alexandria, Stromata 7:3

and Peter not only called Jesus both God and angel but also identified him with Yahweh, the prince of the Sons of God mentioned in Deut. 32:7-8

Peter, in Clementine Recognitions 2:42, in ANF 8:109

Around the turn of the third century, Hippolytus called Jesus "the Angel of [God's] counsel"

Hippolytus, The Apostolic Tradition 4:4, p.7

and Tertullian spoke of Christ as "second" to the Father. However Tertullian stopped short of saying there was a second God because he considered the Father to be the "only true God" and Jesus to be a secondary being. (Note that the creedal trinity is alien to Tertullian)

Tertullian, Against Praxeas 7, in ANF 3:602 and

Tertullian, Against Praxeas 13, in ANF 3:607-608

Well into the third century, Origen could speak of Jesus as a "second God"

Origen, Against Celsus 5:39, in ANF 4:561

but he added a qualification: "We are not afraid to speak, in one sense of two Gods, in another sense of one God." (Very LDS btw)

Origen, Dail Heracl. 2:3, quoted in Segal, Two Powers in Heaven, 251

In what sense are they one? "And these, while they are two, considered as persons or subsistences, are one in unity of thought, in harmony and in identity of will. (again very LDS)

Origen, Against Celsus, 8:12, in ANF 4:643-644

Similarly, the presbyter Novatian maintained that Christ was both angel and God.

Novatian, On the Trinity 19, in ANF 5:630, cf. On the Trinity in ANF 5:628

And he equated this God/angel with the Lord (Yahweh) of Hosts.

Novatian, On the Trinity 12 , in ANF 5:621

He also made clear that the Spirit is subject to the Son.

Novatian, On the Trinity 16, in ANF 5:625

He also said that the unity of the Godhead is NOT some metaphysical "oneness", but unity of will. (LDS again)

Novatian, On the Trinity 27, in ANF 5:637-638

Novatian also did not hesitate to name other angels "gods" as well: "If even the angels themselves...as many as are subjected to Christ, are called gods, rightly also Christ is God."

Novatian, On the Trinity 20, in ANF 5:631

Lactantius approvingly quoted a Hermetic text which spoke of a "second God"

Lactantius, Divine Institutes 4:6, in ANF 7:105

Eusebius of Caesarea likewise called Jesus a "secondary being" who is both angel and God.

Eusebius, The Proof of the Gospel 1:5, 2 vols. translated by W. J. Ferrar

Eusebius also compared the hierarchy of beings (The Three) to the sun, moon, and stars as spoken of in 1 Corinthians 15:40-42 (another LDS concept)

Eusebius, Preparation for the Gospel 7:15, pp.351-352

However, in the aftermath of the Council of Nicea in 325 A.D., such language became unpopular, and some theologians tried to sweep its former popularity under the rug. For example, in the late fourth century Basil of Caesarea feigned that such a thing as a "second God" was unheard of in the "orthodox" faith.

Basil of Caesarea, On the Holy Spirit 45, in NPNF Series 2, 8:28

More evidence of the totality of the Apostasy btw.

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After the hug, Johnny will give Jesus the link to his Anti-Mormon web site.

Just conjecture, of course.

I think the meeting between those two will go something like this:

Jesus said, Whom do men say that I am?

And johnny answered and said, Some say you are John the Baptist returned from the dead; others say Elias, or other of the old prophets.

And Jesus answered and said, But whom do you say that I am?

johnny answered and said, "Thou art the Logos, existing in the Father as His rationality and then, by an act of His will, being generated, in consideration of the various functions by which God is related to his creation, but only on the fact that Scripture speaks of a Father, and a Son, and a Holy Spirit, each member of the Trinity being coequal with every other member, and each acting inseparably with and interpenetrating every other member, with only an economic subordination within God, but causing no division which would make the substance no longer simple."

And Jesus answering, said, "What?"

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Gen 1:26 "And God said, let ME make man in MY image..."

Gen 3:22 "Behold the man is become as one of ME..."

Paul O

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Gen 1:26 "And God said, let ME make man in MY image..."

Gen 3:22 "Behold the man is become as one of ME..."

And thus the trinitarians MUST believe in Deification, though it results in a God who's nature contradicts the Bible....

John 17:11,20-22 causes them the same problem.

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Just my 2 cents, but when it comes time to be able to give Christ a hug, you can all go first. I'll wait my turn. We will be there forever, so I'll have plenty of time. :P Dont, get me wrong, I'm excited, but I have a pure love for all of you, so you can go first. <_<

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It is funny when I see people giving out the ECF quotes and only taking it out of context. Tell me...have you read all their works? Either you read parts of it...and took out bits to fulfill your point or you got it off a mormon website. You have to look at their work as a whole...not by bits.

be honest.

you asked for bible verses to support the Trinity...how many do you want?

I. Old and New Testament Parallels of God the Father and God the Son

Exodus 3:14 - God says "I AM who I AM" - John 8:58 - Jesus says "Before Abraham was, I AM" in reference to Himself.

Deut. 4:2; 12:32 - the Lord God commands that we not add or take away from His word - Rev. 22:18-19 - Jesus so commands us not to add or take away from His word.

Deut. 32:39; 1 Sam. 2:6 - the Lord kills and makes alive again and raises up - John 5:21 - the Son raises and gives life.

Deut. 32:39 - neither is there any that can deliver out of God's hand - John 10:28 - nor shall any pluck out of Jesus' hand.

Deut. 32:43 - rejoice, ye heavens, with Him, and let all the angels of God worship Him - Heb. 1:6 - the "Him" is Jesus the Son.

2 Sam. 22:3 - God is the horn of salvation - Luke 1:68-69 - Jesus is the horn of salvation.

Psalm 19:7 - the law of the Lord is perfect - Gal. 6:2 - fulfill the law of Christ.

Psalm 24:10 - the Lord is the King of glory - 1 Cor. 2:8 - Jesus is the Lord of glory.

Psalm 45:7 - Therefore God, your God, has anointed you. God calls someone else God. This someone else is His eternally begotten Son - Heb. 1:9 - Therefore God, your God, has anointed you. cf. Heb. 1:8, 10.

Psalm 62:12 - the Lord God renders to each according to his work - Matt. 16:27; Rev. 22:12 - Jesus so renders to each according to his work.

Psalm 71:5 - the Lord God is our hope - 1 Tim. 1:1 - the Lord Jesus Christ who is our hope.

Psalm 89:27

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Now as far as "hugging" and looking in "God's eye"

well....here is my answer to that.

You'll see Jesus in His human form. Truely human and truely divine.

Since God the Father and the Holy Spirit are in spirit form, you'll see them as spirits.

Since God is God....he will just appear to me and you in any form He chooses...right?

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If they are seperate but one can they think and act on *their own or not?

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In the Trinity,when it is said that God is omnipresent, is that God,collectively, or are the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost all omnipresent?

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