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Ny Times Article: Kate Kelly And John Dehlin Threatened With Excommunication


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Given her previous ability to raise funds to ship in protesters to Salt Lake City, there is ample reason to believe she could, with a few keystrokes, put out a public request for financial assistance, and she would be showered with money.I'm just not buying the I-can't-afford-the-airfare thing. I have some speculations about why she is choosing to not attend the disciplinary council, but I'll keep them to myself.Thanks,-Smac

Agree. There are plenty of people that wpuld help her out. I have no doubt she could get there if she really wanted to.

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Agree. There are plenty of people that wpuld help her out. I have no doubt she could get there if she really wanted to.

 

 

Of course, if she was being disingenuous then it really is not about money.  God forbid we think negatively of her media manipulation, spin, I mean honest motives.  

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Here is an Op-Ed that does a great job of summarizing much of how I feel about the OW/Kate Kelly issue:Op-ed: Changing the church: How Ordain Women gets it wrong Read the whole thing: Thanks,-Smac

I was not impressed by the op ed. It is basically what I expect a solid toe the line member to say. There is no room for honest agitation. Also she gives no suggestion of HOW one can air concerns. There is no channel other than talk to your bishop and be quiet.

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I don't see the relevance to women's ordination. 

Ok then I will spell it out as simply as I can.

 

1) By blood right Aaron had the Aronic Priesthood to perform the duties of the tabernacle.

2) Miriam is called a "Prophetess", shes' Aaron's sister so by blood right she should have the Priesthood too.  

3) We know she prophesied other wise she wouldn't be called a "prophetess" nor would her or Aaron be claiming that the Lord Prophesied through them as well. (Verse 2)

 

In this story we learn quite a bit. Mirriam apparetntly doesnt have the priesthood even though the Lord did Prophesy to the People through her and her songs. We also see that her and Aaron are trying to usurp and suplant Moses because they are saying "hey didn't we Prophesy too?" The Lord reminds them that all that isn't enough. And that he has set up the priesthood in a very specific way.  He visits Priethood Prophets in visions and dreams but Moses he speaks face to face with. Much deeper than a vision or dream. He's reminding her she needs to be "obedient" to Moses and not speak against him.

 

The Lord can prophesy through anyone he wishes using the Holy Ghost. He spoke through a donkey in this way.

That does not mean the person has priesthood authority or is ordained to the office in the priesthood.

Edited by Zakuska
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All human history is colored by human culture, including religious history. If you think prophets are immune to cultural assumptions, I think you're claiming something far beyond what they themselves would claim. Culture, after all, is what lead to assumptions about blacks and priesthood.

 

 

Read the article on lds.org again.  The culture assumptions were, in reality, influencing the theories WHY the Lord made a restriction.  The article made no mention of the doctrine itself.

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Ok then I will spell it out as simply as I can.

 

1) By blood right Aaron had the Aronic Priesthood to perform the duties of the tabernacle.

2) Miriam is called a "Prophetess", shes' Aaron's sister so by blood right she should have the Priesthood too.  

3) We know she prophesied other wise she wouldn't be called a "prophetess" nor would her or Aaron be claiming that the Lord Prophesied through them as well. (Verse 2)

 

In this story we learn quite a bit. Mirriam apparetntly doesnt have the priesthood even though the Lord did Prophesy to the People through her and her songs. We also see that her and Aaron are trying to usurp and suplant Moses because they are saying "hey didn't we Prophesy too?" The Lord reminds them that all that isn't enough. And that he has set up the priesthood in a very specific way.  He's reminding her she needs to be "obedient" to Moses and not speak against him.

 

The Lord can prophesy through anyone he wishes using the Holy Ghost. That does not mean  the person has priesthood authority or is ordained to the office in the priesthood.

 

If I went to SLC claiming to be the next leader of the church, and was rebuked, would that mean I never had the priesthood? 

 

Or for that matter, if one of the 12 tried to usurp President Monson, and was rebuked, would that mean he never had the priesthood?

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I think OW's numbers are larger than they might seem. Many members don't want to be seen as rocking the boat (or endangering their membership), while privately supporting ordination of women. 

Well, only about 300 (last time I counted a couple of months ago) were willing to put their profiles up on the OW site, and a fair number of these were men-maybe those should count, I dunno-and a fair number, seemed about a third according to my unscientific count were either non-, ex, or less active LDS, but eager to have their voice heard. And again, based on things like visual clues in the pictures and statements made on their profiles, it seemed that  most of the contributors were from either Salt Lake City-not surprising, given the sheer numbers of LDS in the valley, or such bastions of political conservatism as urban areas of California, Seattle area, and Boston. Not exactly a swelling tide rolling in from all quarters. 

Of course, if OW is right, it wouldn't matter if there were no profiles on their site, and if they were wrong, millions of profiles posted would not make it right. 

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Read the article on lds.org again.  The culture assumptions were, in reality, influencing the theories WHY the Lord made a restriction.  The article made no mention of the doctrine itself.

 

I disagree, by either case makes my point for me. No one operates in a culture vacuum. This I think is one of those unrealistic expectations that causes people to stumble. Each prophet reaches for divine guidance within the confines and restrictions of his or her own cultural assumptions. We see through a glass darkly. Sometimes very darkly. 

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Well, only about 300 (last time I counted a couple of months ago) were willing to put their profiles up on the OW site, and a fair number of these were men-maybe those should count, I dunno-and a fair number, seemed about a third according to my unscientific count were either non-, ex, or less active LDS, but eager to have their voice heard. And again, based on things like visual clues in the pictures and statements made on their profiles, it seemed that  most of the contributors were from either Salt Lake City-not surprising, given the sheer numbers of LDS in the valley, or such bastions of political conservatism as urban areas of California, Seattle area, and Boston. Not exactly a swelling tide rolling in from all quarters. 

Of course, if OW is right, it wouldn't matter if there were no profiles on their site, and if they were wrong, millions of profiles posted would not make it right. 

 

It may be that OW is tiny, but I don't think we have enough information to say for sure, given LDS cultural reluctance to be publicly controversial. 

 

My name isn't on the OW site either, but I do support ordination of women. 

Edited by Gray
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Read the article on lds.org again.  The culture assumptions were, in reality, influencing the theories WHY the Lord made a restriction.  The article made no mention of the doctrine itself.

 

Read the article again.  They make no specific claim that the Lord made the restriction.  You are left to interpret it however you want, either from God or from Brigham Young.

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Well, only about 300 (last time I counted a couple of months ago) were willing to put their profiles up on the OW site, and a fair number of these were men-maybe those should count, I dunno-and a fair number, seemed about a third according to my unscientific count were either non-, ex, or less active LDS, but eager to have their voice heard. And again, based on things like visual clues in the pictures and statements made on their profiles, it seemed that  most of the contributors were from either Salt Lake City-not surprising, given the sheer numbers of LDS in the valley, or such bastions of political conservatism as urban areas of California, Seattle area, and Boston. Not exactly a swelling tide rolling in from all quarters. 

Of course, if OW is right, it wouldn't matter if there were no profiles on their site, and if they were wrong, millions of profiles posted would not make it right. 

Given that people must potentially put their temple recommend and or membership on the line to create a public profile, I don't find this surprising. 

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If I went to SLC claiming to be the next leader of the church, and was rebuked, would that mean I never had the priesthood? 

 

Or for that matter, if one of the 12 tried to usurp President Monson, and was rebuked, would that mean he never had the priesthood?

Well lets see Gray.

 

Shes called a "Prophetess" and bore her testimony by the power of the Holy Ghost  and her song is Canonized.  But apparently she wasn't a "prophet". Called of God.

 

Are there any "Dreams of Miriam" in the scriptures where the Lord made himself manifest to her and called her to do work in the Tabernacle like he did Aaron or Moses?

 

She had "blood right" to the Priesthood just as Aaron but it wasn't enough. God had not called or Ordained her. She was struck with Leprosy for trying to usurp the ordination.

Edited by Zakuska
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From today's KUER interview, it was clear now that the church is offering to set up either a secure videochat or telephone conference call.

 

That is really interesting.

 

Is there a written link that covers what the was said in the interview, or is it only available on audio?

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Judge is not a priesthood office.

 

It's comparable to Bishops

 

Not really.  Similar functions but one is a political term, the other a religious office.

 

 

Prophet is not a priesthood office.

 

Then we shouldn't have a problem with having a woman as president of the church

 

I don't and neither did Brigham - "I don't care who leads the Church, even if it's Ann Lee".  President of the Church is not a priesthood office either.  But being the holder of the keys of Priesthood is.

 

 

It's debatable whether there was a female deacon (Pheobe) or a female apostle (Junia) in the Bible.

 

It's not debatable. The Bible identifies a female deacon. In fact IIRC the only Deacon identified by name in scripture is Phoebe.

 

What we do know is that when God said "go out and ordain xyz" to the early apostles and to Joseph Smith he specifically named men.

 

Not surprising given the culture. 

 

 

Yet the word used for Deacon is masculine, both Junia and Phoebe have masculine name equivalents.  Typos happen.

And I don't think God is bound by cultural norms.  When God says specifically "Hey Joseph, do this" I don't think Joseph's biases get applied.

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Given that people must potentially put their temple recommend and or membership on the line to create a public profile, I don't find this surprising.

Which would make it appear they might support OW to a certain extent, but if it came to leaving the Church, they would not.
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For those who disagree with what has/is being done here are a couple of  thoughts.  1)  It is not you who receives revelation/inspiration/guidance for the church and until those 15 men receive such and act on it it will not happen.  2)  Those who rail  against them are dong spiritual damage to themselves and their families. 

 

Question What is wrong with how it is done now?  There is plenty to do for all.  The discontent appears to me as coming from a perceived prestige in holding certain priesthood offices.  Having served in a bishopric and as a ward clerk a couple of times I can assure you that if their is any prestige it is expensive in terms of time spent and sacrifices made. 

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There is plenty to do for all.

 

And by the numbers... people arent even doing that.  The numbers for our HT VT in our stake is quite low. Course we live in a very aged part of the vinyard and there are more shut ins than young couples.

Edited by Zakuska
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While I have no doubt some seek it for the prestige attached to it, there are other valid, honoured by our own church leaders reasons to desire the Priesthood. A great deal of effort in my opinion is put into getting boys and young men to do just that. It should hardly be surpring then that girls and young women and women listening to the same talks and lessons as well as having their own about valuing and honouring the Priesthood see it as a good thing to have and therefore begin to seek after it like Abraham in their minds:

2 And, finding there was greater happiness and peace and rest for me, I sought for the blessings of the fathers, and the right whereunto I should be ordained to administer the same; having been myself a follower of righteousness, desiring also to be one who possessed great knowledge, and to be a greater follower of righteousness, and to possess a greater knowledge, and to be a father of many nations, a prince of peace, and edesiring to receive instructions, and to keep the commandments of God, I became a rightful heir, a high Priest, holding the right belonging to the fathers.

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Looking past your disrespect to Gray, there is no evidence that anyone was "ordained."  It was priesthood through lineage not ordination.  Even the PA rep who did an excellent job on RadioWest this morning couldn't come up with any scriptural command to prohibit women from priesthood. 

Disrespect to gray?

How?

 

This Medium <_<

 

 

And for heaven's sake, anyone who doesn't think the Bible has to be read through the prevailing culture where women could be owned isn't in any position to discuss the Bible.

 

For the record... I humbly disagree with the PA Rep.

 

 

Miriam was of the correct Lineage but her mere ability to prophesy to the People  did not a "prophet" make and the Lord reminds her right in the verse. Had he appeared to her and made himself manifest in a dream?

 

Know any scripture that says such?

Edited by Zakuska
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Yet the word used for Deacon is masculine, both Junia and Phoebe have masculine name equivalents.  Typos happen.

And I don't think God is bound by cultural norms.  When God says specifically "Hey Joseph, do this" I don't think Joseph's biases get applied.

 

 

It is very important that when you are defending the church you use arguments that can be sustained. This can't be.

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She had "blood right" to the Priesthood just as Aaron but it wasn't enough.

where in the scriptures is there any indication that women had any "blood right" to the Priesthood? In Abraham it is explicit that Pharoah shouldn't have tried to claim it through his mother's lineage.
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where in the scriptures is there any indication that women had any "blood right" to the Priesthood? In Abraham it is explicit that Pharoah shouldn't have tried to claim it through his mother's lineage.

 

Thanks for bringing that up Cal. (Much of the world doesn't like the BOA though) So Lets go back to numbers.

 

Here Aaron  (correct Blood Line) and Miriam his sister (correct Bloodline)

 

Both claim to be prophets because they had Prophesyed in the camp when the HG fell up them.

 

 

 2 And they said, Hath the Lord indeed spoken only by Moses? hath he not spoken also by us? And the Lord heard it.
 3 (Now the man Moses was very meek, above all the men which were upon the face of the earth.)
 4 And the Lord spake suddenly unto Moses, and unto Aaron, and unto Miriam, Come out ye three unto the tabernacle of the congregation. And they three came out.
 5 And the Lord came down in the pillar of the cloud, and stood in the door of the tabernacle, and called Aaron and Miriam: and they both came forth.
 6 And he said, Hear now my words: If there be a prophet among you, I the Lord will make myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak unto him in a dream.
 7 My servant Moses is not so, who is faithful in all mine house.

 

Where in all the scriptures did God appear in a dream to Miriam or Aaron and appoint them to be Prophets? Non that Im aware of.  So we see in the case of Miram not even Bloodline was enough.

 

Cal, I wasnt saying that Miraim had a "priesthood right" by blood even though she was a woman. I was just eluding to the fact that she could invoke it being Aarons blood sister. BUt not even that was enough..

Edited by Zakuska
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