Noah's Flood And "mental Gymanstics" - Local Flooders Wanted!

[cinepro]

1. Why not? the local flora and fauna were going to be disrupted so it would be logical for him to gather local animals.

But that's not what the Bible says. It doesn't say that Noah gathered only the local animals. It says every living thing of all flesh. That would include animals that wouldn't be facing an "extinction event". It's especially odd that he would have to gather birds. Sure, there might be a few birds that can't migrate to non-flood areas, but how many bird species are there that would need to be preserved in an ark?

2. We only have one reference to where the Ark landed and it was recorded a couple thousand years after the fact. Have you ever played the game where a story is repeated from person to person and it turns out it ain't even close to the original? Noah could have very well floated around the ocean for a while and then landed on a beach somewhere, perhaps even close to a mountain.

Interesting. It would appear that the local flood theory relies, in part, on a belief that the details of the story as recounted in Genesis are simply wrong. I suspect that might be why it hasn't gained any traction among Church leaders and publications.

[MormonFreeThinker]

 

 

But, I'm curious (given this method) why not just go with the global rendition? The end result is the same.

 

Senator,

 

We understand that most politicians don't like Science, but science is important, General Authorities have taught us to embrace all truth.

Science has disproven the Global Flood Theory, and "The ordering of the strata in the earth's crust" (Dr. Salisbury)  disproves the Global Flood.

[Senator]

Senator,

 

We understand that most politicians don't like Science, but science is important, General Authorities have taught us to embrace all truth.

Science has disproven the Global Flood Theory, and "The ordering of the strata in the earth's crust" (Dr. Salisbury)  disproves the Global Flood.

 

My point (and perhaps mb's point) is that I really don't care. Which leads to the next question>  Why am I posting in this thread?  That's a good question.

[MormonFreeThinker]

My point (and perhaps mb's point) is that I really don't care. Which leads to the next question>  Why am I posting in this thread?  That's a good question.

 

Senator, 

 

We know you don't care, and most politicians don't care about Science and Climate Change. 

Science is a blessing, not a curse.

 

Elder Oaks said,

"I am grateful to know that there are two methods of gaining knowledge — the scientific method and the spiritual method"

http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/witnesses-of-god

[mnn727]

Interesting. It would appear that the local flood theory relies, in part, on a belief that the details of the story as recounted in Genesis are simply wrong. I suspect that might be why it hasn't gained any traction among Church leaders and publications. 

Did you not read my opening statement?

 

Let me quote it for you again:

 

I need to first state before I answer your question that I do not believe the Bible or the BoM is 100% true/historical/scientific. I do believe that the writers did the best they could with what they knew at the time, but what appears as a world wide flood to someone 5-6000 years ago or so, long before satellites and weathermen could very well be a large but localized flood.

 

Edited June 9, 2014 by mnn727

[thesometimesaint]

But that's not what the Bible says. It doesn't say that Noah gathered only the local animals. It says every living thing of all flesh. That would include animals that wouldn't be facing an "extinction event". It's especially odd that he would have to gather birds. Sure, there might be a few birds that can't migrate to non-flood areas, but how many bird species are there that would need to be preserved in an ark?

Interesting. It would appear that the local flood theory relies, in part, on a belief that the details of the story as recounted in Genesis are simply wrong. I suspect that might be why it hasn't gained any traction among Church leaders and publications.

 

As a child did you ever play telephone?

SEE

Starting at 3:14

 

We're not Bible literalists. If Noah gathered two of every flesh that would of necessity flightless birds; Birds that live in different environments and had different foods to eat long after Noah opened the door and let them out into a dead world.

[mfbukowski]

Senator, 

 

We know you don't care, and most politicians don't care about Science and Climate Change. 

Science is a blessing, not a curse.

 

Elder Oaks said,

"I am grateful to know that there are two methods of gaining knowledge — the scientific method and the spiritual method"

http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/witnesses-of-god

Two methods because we have two different subjects.

 

What's true about composition and linear versus painterly effects in Impressionist painting has nothing to do with baseball or why quantum theory works.

 

Different methods for different subjects, that have nothing to do with each other

 

Your article affirms this point

 

 

I am grateful to know that there are two methods of gaining knowledge — the scientific method and the spiritual method, which begins with faith in God and relies on scriptures, inspired teaching and personal revelation. There is no ultimate conflict between knowledge gained by these different methods because God, our omnipotent Eternal Father, knows all truth and beckons us to learn by them both.

 

Edited June 9, 2014 by mfbukowski

[ERayR]

My point (and perhaps mb's point) is that I really don't care. Which leads to the next question>  Why am I posting in this thread?  That's a good question.

 

Realistically there is really no good reason to post with MFT and take an opposing position because when he speaks the thinking has all been done.

[The Nehor]

But that's not what the Bible says. It doesn't say that Noah gathered only the local animals. It says every living thing of all flesh. That would include animals that wouldn't be facing an "extinction event". It's especially odd that he would have to gather birds. Sure, there might be a few birds that can't migrate to non-flood areas, but how many bird species are there that would need to be preserved in an ark?

 

Another question is that if the flood was global wouldn't Noah have had to pack up all the freshwater fish and other freshwater aquatic species too? That ark just gets bigger and bigger.

[ERayR]

Another question is that if the flood was global wouldn't Noah have had to pack up all the freshwater fish and other freshwater aquatic species too? That ark just gets bigger and bigger.

 

Why with that much fresh water flooding everything the salt content would be quite diluted.

[MormonFreeThinker]

Why with that much fresh water flooding everything the salt content would be quite diluted.

 

Why not answer my question. 

 

Why do we find big mammals, dinosaurs, and trilobites on different layers? 

 

"The ordering of the strata in the earth's crust just does not fit this picture. No traces of humans have ever been found in the same strata as dinosaur bones, for example." - Dr. Frank B. Salisbury 

 

"the orderly structure of these horizontally lying layers, with their fossils, argues strongly against the notion that the earth has been assembled, relatively recently, from the wreckage of earlier worlds"  - From Henry Eyring, Reflections of a Scientist

 

[MormonFreeThinker]

Two methods because we have two different subjects.

 

 

 

I disagree, with the Scriptures and Science we can personally conclude that 

1. God somehow used Evolution to create useful animals and plants

2. Book of Mormon peoples represented only a fraction of all DNA in ancient America

3. and other things 

[ERayR]

Why not answer my question. 

 

Why do we find big mammals, dinosaurs, and trilobites on different layers? 

 

"The ordering of the strata in the earth's crust just does not fit this picture. No traces of humans have ever been found in the same strata as dinosaur bones, for example." - Dr. Frank B. Salisbury 

 

"the orderly structure of these horizontally lying layers, with their fossils, argues strongly against the notion that the earth has been assembled, relatively recently, from the wreckage of earlier worlds"  - From Henry Eyring, Reflections of a Scientist

 

 

Because that is where they died.

 

The strata layers are not all that orderly in some places:

 

https://www.google.com/search?q=strata+layers+out+of+order&client=firefox-a&hs=p4p&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&channel=sb&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=SkOWU7bMK8WBoQSVuoHwBg&ved=0CEQQsAQ&biw=1577&bih=737

 

http://evolutionfacts.com/Ev-V2/2evlch17e.htm

 

As this goes against your preconceived bias I don't expect you to add to your knowledge store but help yourself.

Edited June 9, 2014 by ERayR

[MormonFreeThinker]

Because that is where they died.

 

The strata layers are not all that orderly in some places:

 

https://www.google.com/search?q=strata+layers+out+of+order&client=firefox-a&hs=p4p&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&channel=sb&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=SkOWU7bMK8WBoQSVuoHwBg&ved=0CEQQsAQ&biw=1577&bih=737

 

http://evolutionfacts.com/Ev-V2/2evlch17e.htm

 

As this goes against your preconceived bias I don't expect you to add to your knowledge store but help yourself.

 

 

So you know more than the paleontologists? have you studied fossils and the layers yourself? Or are you going to trust adventist Vance Ferrell? Vance is not a Paleontologist. No wonder you don't accept real science, you read Evangelical and Adventist websites. 

 

"The material for this site was taken from two books, compiled by free-lance Reporter Vance Ferrell. BA. MA. :"

http://evolutionfacts.com/index.htm#BIBLIOGRAPHIC_INFORMATION: _

 

In that website, they teach that dinosaurs and man walked together LOL  They are young earth creationist

What next? A Flat Earth Society website? 

http://theflatearthsociety.org/cms/

 

Cite a real academic source, or a peer-reviewed research, or simply tell me in your own words. 

 

"The strata layers are not all that orderly in some places:"

Did you watch this video? all of it?

Edited June 10, 2014 by MormonFreeThinker

[ERayR]

So you know more than the paleontologists? have you studied fossils and the layers yourself? Or are you going to trust adventist Vance Ferrell? Vance is not a Paleontologist. No wonder you don't accept real science, you read Evangelical and Adventist websites. 

 

"The material for this site was taken from two books, compiled by free-lance Reporter Vance Ferrell. BA. MA. :"

http://evolutionfacts.com/index.htm#BIBLIOGRAPHIC_INFORMATION: _

 

In that website, they teach that dinosaurs and man walked together LOL  

What next? A Flat Earth Society website? 

http://theflatearthsociety.org/cms/

 

Cite a real academic source, or a peer-reviewed research, or simply tell me in your own words. 

 

"The strata layers are not all that orderly in some places:"

Did you watch this video? all of it?

 

With you it is always that your mind is made up and your defer to insults.  I can't communicate with a rock and it seems your mind has solidified into rock and you refuse to entertain anything that challenges that rock.  I think that from now on I will ignore your posts as you seem incapable of dialog.

[MormonFreeThinker]

With you it is always that your mind is made up and your defer to insults.  I can't communicate with a rock and it seems your mind has solidified into rock and you refuse to entertain anything that challenges that rock.  I think that from now on I will ignore your posts as you seem incapable of dialog.

 

The Flat Earth Theorist challenged what we know about the Solar System, are you going to take them seriously?

 

I did not insult you, I am just saying that Evangelical websites are not reliable, and that is a Young Earth Creationist website.

 

Why don't you just present the evidence or your answers in your own words? 

 

I am open minded, but what about you? I used to believe in a Global Flood, again I am open minded. 

 

If you are going to ignore me, it is because you can't cite a serious research, or present your own direct research. 

Edited June 10, 2014 by MormonFreeThinker

[ERayR]

The Flat Earth Theorist challenged what we know about the Solar System, are you going to take them seriously?

 

I did not insult you, I am just saying that Evangelical websites are not reliable, and that is a Young Earth Creationist website.

 

Why don't you just present the evidence or your answers in your own words? 

 

I am open minded, but what about you? I used to believe in a Global Flood, again I am open minded. 

 

If you are going to ignore me, it is because you can't cite a serious research, or present your own direct research. 

 

OK absolutely the last response to one of your posts.  As one who has raised two families you remind me very much of a teen who has all the answers and feels no need to consider what anyone else has said.  I tried to give you some ideas to consider you insult my cognitive abilities.  I ask you for some cogent thoughts on your ideas and get only your supposition that all the authorities on a subject agree with you. 

Edited June 10, 2014 by ERayR

[The Nehor]

Why with that much fresh water flooding everything the salt content would be quite diluted.

 

If we assume the floodwather is all fresh and good enough for freshwater fish then he would have the larger problem of loading up the saltwater creatures to keep them alive.

 

"And Noah took two of every shark and every whale and every octopi and every squid and brought them into the ark."

 

I guess you could probably fit two blue whales in the ark if you squeezed them in tight but not much else would fit but they would die in there. I think your explanation just leads to bigger problems.

[MormonFreeThinker]

OK absolutely the last response to one of your posts.  As one who has raised two families you remind me very much of a teen who has all the answers and feels no need to consider what anyone else has said.  I tried to give you some ideas to consider you insult my cognitive abilities.  I ask you for some cogent thoughts on your ideas and get only your supposition that all the authorities on a subject agree with you. 

 

I certainly don't have all the answers, but I trust the scientist when they tell me that the Theory of the Solar System, the Theory of the Gravity, The Theory of Evolution  are true. 

 

Okay, give me good ideas, but please don't link to Evangelical websites, you know how Evangelicals are, Many Evangelicals are also very good in making bad anti-Mormon arguments. 

 

I wish you were right, I don't like Evolution, I like ID creationism and the Global Flood, that is what I believed for years, but so far all the scientific evidence studied points to Evolution. 

 

"I ask you for some cogent thoughts on your ideas and get only your supposition that all the authorities on a subject agree with you."

 

I did present evidence, but you did not answer my question, you only linked to a Young Earth adventist website. 

So please cite an academic source, or explain your own  direct research, but don't link to Evangelical websites please. 

Edited June 10, 2014 by MormonFreeThinker

[thesometimesaint]

I certainly don't have all the answers, but I trust the scientist when they tell me that the Theory of the Solar System, the Theory of the Gravity, The Theory of Evolution  are true. 

 

Okay, give me good ideas, but please don't link to Evangelical websites, you know how Evangelicals are, Many Evangelicals are also very good in making bad anti-Mormon arguments. 

 

I wish you were right, I don't like Evolution, I like ID creationism and the Global Flood, that is what I believed for years, but so far all the scientific evidence studied points to Evolution. 

 

"I ask you for some cogent thoughts on your ideas and get only your supposition that all the authorities on a subject agree with you."

 

I did present evidence, but you did not answer my question, you only linked to a Young Earth adventist website. 

So please cite an academic source, or explain your own  direct research, but don't link to Evangelical websites please. 

 

It's a mixed bag. Most EVs' have no problems at all with science. They see the good things that it has brought into their lives just a we do. It really is a vocal minority of both groups that makes all the noise. OTOH Bad ideas are bad ideas no matter who promotes  them as well as Good ideas are good ideas no matter who promotes them. The anti-science noise we hear and read about is very bad ideas being promoted as good ideas. Add in the general lack of scientific knowledge and we as a country are in for very bad things.

[DBMormon]

If God were writing the story, and God being aware of the entire planet, all it's people, and it's animals, he obviously would be speaking about the whole earth.

 

But since man wrote the story based on his filter and seeing through a glass darkly, I have no problem with man thinking the earth is less than it really is, or since he has animals of every kind that he is aware of, that he must have animals of every kind that exists worldwide.  

 

Cinepro, It is all about assumptions, you know that better than anyone.

 

Also in another thread you wrote other barriers to a local flood (assuming the restored gospel is true) , would you mind repeating those?

 

Thanks

Bill

[mfbukowski]

I disagree, with the Scriptures and Science we can personally conclude that 

1. God somehow used Evolution to create useful animals and plants

2. Book of Mormon peoples represented only a fraction of all DNA in ancient America

3. and other things

Personal conclusions are not science.

You have combined two methods in your mind. That is fine, but there are still two methods.

You gave it away by naming both science AND the scrips

Edited June 10, 2014 by mfbukowski

[ERayR]

If we assume the floodwather is all fresh and good enough for freshwater fish then he would have the larger problem of loading up the saltwater creatures to keep them alive.

 

"And Noah took two of every shark and every whale and every octopi and every squid and brought them into the ark."

 

I guess you could probably fit two blue whales in the ark if you squeezed them in tight but not much else would fit but they would die in there. I think your explanation just leads to bigger problems.

 

Solve one problem and two more show up.  Its never ending problems.

[Rob Osborn]

If God were writing the story, and God being aware of the entire planet, all it's people, and it's animals, he obviously would be speaking about the whole earth.

 

But since man wrote the story based on his filter and seeing through a glass darkly, I have no problem with man thinking the earth is less than it really is, or since he has animals of every kind that he is aware of, that he must have animals of every kind that exists worldwide.  

 

Cinepro, It is all about assumptions, you know that better than anyone.

 

Also in another thread you wrote other barriers to a local flood (assuming the restored gospel is true) , would you mind repeating those?

 

Thanks

Bill

You assume way too much.

[JarMan]

In the ongoing discussion of Widstoe's theory regarding the scope of Noah's Flood (he believed it was global), the comment was made that a belief in a global flood requires some sort of "mental gymnastics".  This implies that some degree of illogical or excessively creative thinking is required to maintain a belief in a global flood. 

 

The implication was that a belief in a local flood (i.e. Noah's flood being limited to a specific region of the planet, and not covering the whole globe) does not require "mental gymnastics".  I'm not so sure.

 

So this thread is devoted solely and specifically to those who believe that Noah's flood as recorded in the Bible was a real, historical event, but that it only covered a specific region of the planet.

 

If you believe the flood was "global", please stay out of this thread (sorry, but that means you Rob Osborn).  If you believe the story is purely allegorical, please enjoy the discussion as a spectator.

 

But if you believe the flood as recorded in Genesis 6-8 was accurately reported but local in scope, please explain your answers to the two following questions:

 

In Genesis chapter 6, we read the following about Noah and the animals:

 

 

 

 

Then in chapter 7:

 

 

 

 

Question 1: If the flood were "local" or regional, why did Noah need to bring non-food animals into the ark?

 

Later, at the end of the story, we learn the following in Genesis 8:

 

 

 

 

Also, keep in mind that depending on the exact measure of a "cubit", the dimensions in Genesis 6:15 give an ark that is 450 feet long, 75 feet wide, and 45 feet high.

 

Question 2: If the flood were "local" or regional, where did the ark end up after the flood, and how did it get there?  Please explain the hydrologic actions needed in a local flood to float such a vessel, presumably, "upwards" into the mountains, instead of downwards towards a valley or the ocean.

 

Looking forward to some mental-gymnastics free answers!

 

Answer 1: The non-food animals were needed to repopulate the area that was locally flooded.

 

Answer 2: The Caspian Sea is located in a closed hydrologic basin, meaning that there is no outlet to the ocean. Mt. Ararat is located within this basin. So all that is needed is enough water to make the Caspian Sea large enough that it reaches Mt. Ararat. This would take a lot of water, of course, but if the Don River and Amu River were temporarily re-routed (as has happened in geologic times) then these rivers could provide an extra source of water to make the flood large enough.