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Ordain Women Group Publishes "six Discussions" To Proselytize For Its Agenda

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The catholic church also its ordain women organization but it doesn't get much play in the media nor among the members of the catholic church. Why? Because it is old news now. And catholics in general do not give it much support. However, in the lds church such a 'heretic' organization seems to get a lot of traction. Why? Is the pope praying for guidance about ordaining women in the catholic church? I haven't heard anything about it. I kind of feel sorry for active lds. They are getting so much heresy at the moment that I am surprised that anyone stays active.

I'm afraid there is a large contingent of Catholics who think women should be ordained.  They also know that it is not going to happen.  I believe the true is same of the LDS Church.  The wise church members understand that priesthood ordination is a male only endeavor.  Southern Baptists understand that ministers should only be men as well.

 

The pro-women ordination movement and the pro-gay movements all come from the same source.  They go hand-in-hand.  

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This is what Jesus said when asked how we should pray to HF. Here's how it COULD be read in this context:

Bold ladies, went to The Lord during General Conference weekend, and said, "Let us have the Priesthood."

The Lord said, it is the latter days and I already have men endowed with the priesthood, I cannot reverse Church doctrine and give thee."

I say unto you, although The Lord will not give them because they are His daughters, yet because of their demands, he will give them the priesthood.

I say unto you, Ask for the priesthood and it will be given you, seek the fullness of God and you shall find, and to her that knocketh I will instruct the Brethren to open the door.

And if not this context, when it is appropriate for us to act with importunity with The Lord as Christ Himself encouraged us to do.

 

Thanks for reminding us that someone COULD prove anything  from the Bible, that even Satan himself quotes scripture. (not personal)  Should we apply this to reducing the ten commandments to five, tithing to 6%, requiring the apostles to graduate from divinity school, etc

 

May I suggest that this COULD fall under the category of 2 Pe 3:16

 

which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

 

Edited by cdowis

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It's not about what I think. It's about what they think.

 

How about non-Mormons? Why not give them the priesthood? Theoretically, isn't a non-Mormon as capable of running an organization as a Mormon?

 

Probably not, since non-Mormons don't attend, don't believe, and usually aren't familiar with Mormon doctrine and practice

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Let’s take a look at what D&C says about things being “equal” (from a simple word search):

 

D&C 107: 24, 26, 36-37, 68 – quorums and councils are equal in authority; the office of a bishop is not equal to the office of Presiding High Priest over the High Priesthood of the Church “for the office of a bishop is in administering all temporal things.”

 

D&C 51: 3; D&C 70: 14; D&C 78: 5-6; D&C 82: 17 – equal means equal claim on the Lord’s storehouse for the purpose of managing our stewardships according to just wants and needs (stewardships, wants and needs are not identical); equality in temporal things.

 

D&C 88: 107, 122 – equal with God, and equal privilege to edify and be edified through mutual teaching.

 

D&C 76: 95 – those in the celestial glory are “equal in power, and in might, and in dominion.”

 

D&C 90: 6 – the members of the First Presidency hold the keys equally.

 

D&C 136: 8 – equal as in “the dividend of their property” (for example, tithing is 10% for everyone) to support the pure religion and undefiled and the Church; equal as in “all” the “heart, might, mind and strength.”

 

The Book of Mormon teaches equality in the same way: Mosiah 27: 3; Alma 30: 11 (equal in freedom from persecution of religion); Mosiah 29: 38 (an equal chance to answer for our own sins); Alma 1: 26 (equal in sharing the word of God according to one's temporal and spiritual responsibility, and according to one’s strength).

 

In the Bible, the term is used most often as to how we are not equal with God, with the exception of Jesus (Phillipians 2:6).

 

I see nothing about a call for men and women to be equal in holding priesthood keys or office, and not all men hold the same office, and not all offices are equal.

 

None of this contradicts my reading of 2 Nephi, which is fairly simple and requires no real exposition. It's a simple blueprint for social justice. God is no respecter of persons. 

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Not in the King James Bible. Phebe is "our sister, which is a servant of the church."

You are looking at the English Standard translation, not the KJV. Remember the whole the word of God as far as it is translated correctly.

 

The original Greek identifies Phoebe as a deacon. 

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You are evidently blind to the many layers of presumptuous interpretation that underlay your so-called "literal take" of only several English translations of that single passage in the Bible (others English translations render the word as "servant" rather than "deacon"--which should tell you something about "literal take," though I wont be surprised if it doesn't).

 

Again, if you think your so-called "literal take" of that single passage of scripture is authoritative in determining God's will regarding the bestowal of keys and administration of his priesthood in his Church today, that is your choice--though I am puzzled why you would think you need God's or the Church leaders permission to do what you have already determined you have greater authority to speak thereon?

 

I, on the other hand, prefer to look to God and his chosen leaders for the keys and authority in the latter days, and this since I don't view myself as in a position to authoritative say otherwise..

 

To each their own.

 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

 

God has given no revelation to any leaders, past or present, that bans women from the priesthood. So whatever you're basing your opinion on, it's certainly not on anything authoritative (you seem to think that's important, which is why I mention it).

Edited by Gray

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You've just asked a question that has been plaguing me recently.  What reward do sisters expect to receive in the hereafter for their good and faithful service?

 

It is my understanding of the gospel that the closer people come to Christ the less they have expectations of, or are motivated by reward, and the more they have expectations of and are motivated by love. For them, the eternities are about being godly.

 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

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I think, Wade, that your concerns about equality would be taken more seriously if they weren't being employed to dismiss requests for equality. What steps do you think could be constructively taken within the context of the Church and its administration to close the gender gap - both the real gender gap and the perceived gender gap? Maybe four or five specific suggestions for change might be nice instead of the sort of constant sidetracking to the issue of equality.

 

Ben McGuire

 

But, such requests for equality ought to be dismissed because they are inherently asinine. That is my point. Rather, what should be requested is God's will.

 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

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None of this contradicts my reading of 2 Nephi, which is fairly simple and requires no real exposition. It's a simple blueprint for social justice. God is no respecter of persons. 

But you shared your own personal reading of it regarding idea of equality (and now social justice), which isn't supported by the scriptures I provided. Equality (even if you want to now frame it as social justice) is not defined by or reflected in ordination to priesthodd office but instead by/in the other matters described in these verses such as temporal things according to wants and needs, spiritual edifiction, eternal glory, freedom of religion, agency, testimony, etc.

 

You haven't provided a meaningful sriptural basis callimg for men and women to be equal in holding priesthood keys or office. Note the lack of so-called "equality" in men holding different offices, and in not all offices being equal.

 

The "respect of persons" has to do with bringing the Gospel message to both Jew and Gentile, not ordaining men and women to priesthood office.

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God has given no revelation to any leaders, past or present, that bans women from the priesthood. So whatever you're basing your opinion on, it's certainly not on anything authoritative (you seem to think that's important, which is why I mention it).

 

Again, within the gospel of Christ as I understand it, the priesthood is bestowed and not presumed. Keys of authority must be proactively granted, and this within each dispensation (because they were taken from the earth during prior dispensations, or not bestowed at all in those prior dispensations), not usurped. So, unless the keys for women to receive the priesthood have been revealed and bestowed in this dispensation, then women cannot as yet rightly be ordained to the priesthood.

 

As such, it would be irrational to look for scriptures banning women from the priesthood, or assume that women aren't banned from the priesthood for want of explicit scriptural declarations to the contrary, but instead look to see if the keys have been bestowed, and if not, then logically conclude that women can't rightly be ordained until such keys are bestowed.

 

However, I can respect that things may be the opposite in your personal gospel.

 

To each their own.

 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited by wenglund

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God has given no revelation to any leaders, past or present, that bans women from the priesthood. So whatever you're basing your opinion on, it's certainly not on anything authoritative (you seem to think that's important, which is why I mention it).

Why would there need to be a revelation or scripture to ban women from ordination? The pattern all along has been that ordination is for men (see D&C 121:37 and 107:16, 29, 41, 99 for example). It's like insistenting that we need a scripture specifically banning gay "marriage" before accepting that the Church is performing sealings as the Lord intended.

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But you shared your own personal reading of it regarding idea of equality (and now social justice), which isn't supported by the scriptures I provided. Equality (even if you want to now frame it as social justice) is not defined by or reflected in ordination to priesthodd office but instead by/in the other matters described in these verses such as temporal things according to wants and needs, spiritual edifiction, eternal glory, freedom of religion, agency, testimony, etc.

 

You haven't provided a meaningful sriptural basis callimg for men and women to be equal in holding priesthood keys or office. Note the lack of so-called "equality" in men holding different offices, and in not all offices being equal.

 

The "respect of persons" has to do with bringing the Gospel message to both Jew and Gentile, not ordaining men and women to priesthood office.

 

I don't think I've gone beyond the text (not that there would be anything wrong in doing so). The scriptures specifically identify areas of equality - race and gender. Whether or not god makes distinction based on ability is another matter, but I don't think religious distinctions based on race and gender are in harmony with 2 Nephi

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Why would there need to be a revelation or scripture to ban women from ordination? The pattern all along has been that ordination is for men (see D&C 121:37 and 107:16, 29, 41, 99 for example). It's like insistenting that we need a scripture specifically banning gay "marriage" before accepting that the Church is performing sealings as the Lord intended.

 

Tradition, while difficult to change once entrenched, isn't the same thing as revelation. 

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However, I can respect that things may be the opposite in your personal gospel.

 

 

Likewise, I respect that your personal understanding of the gospel is different than mine

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The original Greek identifies Phoebe as a deacon. 

 

There are no original Greek manuscripts for that passage. Rather, there are copies made centuries after the fact.

 

Be that as it may, there are several Greek connotations of the Greek term Diakonon (Deacon), including: "one who executes the commands of another, esp. of a master, a servant, attendant, minister the servant of a king a deacon, one who, by virtue of the office assigned to him by the church, cares for the poor and has charge of and distributes the money collected for their use a waiter, one who serves food and drink." (See HERE)

 

Given that Pheobe was described by Paul in context as "a succourer of many, and of myself also" (see HERE), and given how closely this resembles the role of Relief Society today, the connotation of "servant" seems most apropos, which may explain why many of the English translations of Rom. 16:1 render it a such.

 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

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There are no original Greek manuscripts for that passage. Rather, there are copies made centuries after the fact.

 

Be that as it may, there are several Greek connotations of the Greek term Diakonon (Deacon), including: "one who executes the commands of another, esp. of a master, a servant, attendant, minister the servant of a king a deacon, one who, by virtue of the office assigned to him by the church, cares for the poor and has charge of and distributes the money collected for their use a waiter, one who serves food and drink." (See HERE)

 

Given that Pheobe was described by Paul in context as "a succourer of many, and of myself also" (see HERE), and given how closely this resembles the role of Relief Society today, the connotation of "servant" seems most apropos, which may explain why many of the English translations of Rom. 16:1 render it a such.

 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

 

Yes, and the term "apostle" just means one who is sent away. Therefore the 12 apostles weren't priesthood holders but rather messenger boys. 

 

What's good for the goose is, after all, good for the gander. 

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Again, within the gospel of Christ as I understand it, the priesthood is bestowed and not presumed. Keys of authority must be proactively granted, and this within each dispensation (because they were taken from the earth during prior dispensations, or not bestowed at all in those prior dispensations), not usurped. So, unless the keys for women to receive the priesthood have been revealed and bestowed in this dispensation, then women cannot as yet rightly be ordained to the priesthood.

 

As such, it would be irrational to look for scriptures banning women from the priesthood, or assume that women aren't banned from the priesthood for want of explicit scriptural declarations to the contrary, but instead look to see if the keys have been bestowed, and if not, then logically conclude that women can't rightly be ordained until such keys are bestowed.

 

However, I can respect that things may be the opposite in your personal gospel.

 

To each their own.

 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

I can think of a hundred things not banned by the scriptures which are nevertheless bad ideas

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Tradition, while difficult to change once entrenched, isn't the same thing as revelation. 

That is correct, but the verses I posted are from scriputure, not tradition. Why would you would misrepresent them as such?

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Yes, and the term "apostle" just means one who is sent away. Therefore the 12 apostles weren't priesthood holders but rather messenger boys. 

 

What's good for the goose is, after all, good for the gander.

But it doesn't help your argument much. Translations are not easy, and arguments based on them are very difficult.

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I can think of a hundred things not banned by the scriptures which are nevertheless bad ideas

 

I don't think giving women access to all leadership roles in the church is one of them

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That is correct, but the verses I posted are from scriputure, not tradition. Why would you would misrepresent them as such?

 

None of the verses you referenced banned women from priesthood. They do represent the long Christian tradition (with the exclusion of earliest incarnations of Christianity) of not including women in priesthood roles 

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Yes, and the term "apostle" just means one who is sent away. Therefore the 12 apostles weren't priesthood holders but rather messenger boys. 

 

What's good for the goose is, after all, good for the gander. 

 

While titles and descriptors can have varied meaning, context is important. Obviously,. As such, If there weren't ample references in scriptures, both ancient and modern, where apostles were clearly ordained and denoted as offices of the priesthood, as differentiated from, at best, an office of auxilary organization within the Church, you may have a point. There are, and so you don't. 

 

But, that won't likely prevent you from continued desperate grasping. You have an agenda that needs propping up with even the most tissuey correlations. ;)

 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

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I don't think I've gone beyond the text (not that there would be anything wrong in doing so). The scriptures specifically identify areas of equality - race and gender. Whether or not god makes distinction based on ability is another matter, but I don't think religious distinctions based on race and gender are in harmony with 2 Nephi

Offer a scriptural source that uses "equal" or "equality" in a sense other than those I've listed and that conveys that it means every saint is to have a priesthood office.

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But it doesn't help your argument much. Translations are not easy, and arguments based on them are very difficult.

 

I didn't intend it to help my argument, but to provide some perspective on why his parsing of the word "deacon" is applied unfairly 

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While titles and descriptors can have varied meaning, context is important. Obviously,. As such, If there weren't ample references in scriptures, both ancient and modern, where apostles were clearly ordained and denoted as offices of the priesthood, as differentiated from, at best, an office of auxilary organization within the Church, you may have a point. There are, and so you don't. 

 

But, that won't likely prevent you from continued desperate grasping. You have an agenda that needs propping up with even the most tissuey correlations. ;)

 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

 

I don't think I'm desperate. I just think there is clear scriptural precedent for inclusion. If you need to explain away the scriptures because the idea of inclusion bothers you so much, I guess that's your right, but your standards aren't applied evenly. 

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