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Ordain Women Group Publishes "six Discussions" To Proselytize For Its Agenda

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After thinking about it some more, not sure that I am reading too much into it.

 

If why me is correct (and there is a good possibility he is), OW is more about obtaining power than anything else. And as has been noted on this thread, there is clear antipathy between those who espouse a more radical form of feminism and those who are more moderate - not to mention those who don't consider themselves feminists.

 

it's bad enough when men misuse priesthood authority as described in D&C 121. If radical feminists were given the priesthood, to what end would they want to use it? Can you envision someone such as Margaret Toscano, who is part of OW and who speaks sneeringly of "partriarchy", benevolently exercising the priesthood as it is intended?  I certainly can't.

 

After reading over their website in some detail, I see claims that they can't fully "serve" unless they're given the priesthood. Since the level of one's Christlike service is not measured in terms of whether one holds the priesthood or not, such a sentiment is clearly false. In light of that, we must ask why they actually want the priesthood. And the answer to the question inevitably boils down to a demand for more power and influence.

 

That is inconsistent with what the priesthood is all about. I don't see anything from OW that indicates they understand at all what holding the priesthood is really all about, but I see quite a bit such as what I quoted that gives me pause about what their real agenda is.

 

Too much smoke for me to be comfortable with them.

One part of radical feminism is to proclaim victim status.Thus, women are victims in the church. They are victims of patriarchy and the abuse of power. For radical mormon feminists the goal is to usurp such victimization and replace it with a more equal church society (to fit their definitions of equality) when it comes to power relations. And to take control of the narrative so that they can control the policies at local and national levels inside the church. OW will not be satisfied with only the priesthood. They wish to keep stressing the power relations of male and female both in church and in the home. They always will need the male to be the enemy to be relevant.

Edited by why me

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"such a sentiment is clearly false"

So you think they are lying?

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"such a sentiment is clearly false"

So you think they are lying?

 

Do you think that the sentiment that one cannot fully serve unless one holds the priesthood is true?

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No, but I can understand why some people might believe that given how Abraham describes his desires and how we are taught it is God's greatest gift to men.

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No, but I can understand why some people might believe that given how Abraham describes his desires and how we are taught it is God's greatest gift to men.

Some can see it as a curse since more is expected when one has the priesthood. If OW were ever successful or if women got the priesthood, we just need to see how the CoC is set up to understand where the lds church would be.

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No, but I can understand why some people might believe that given how Abraham describes his desires and how we are taught it is God's greatest gift to men.

 

A misunderstanding of Abraham doesn't validate a sentiment. And I think very few people, if any, understand fully what Abraham was talking about.

 

I was always taught that God's greatest gift to men was Christ and His atoning sacrifice. If someone is demanding access to God's greatest gift, maybe they need to start there.

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Interesting experience in SS ... We were in the Book of Judges and the discussion came around to Deborah. The instructor (a man who stands 10 feet tall in MY eyes) did not refer to her as a prophet(ess) or judge but rather as a "good friend" to Barak. Being in repentance mode, I stifled any desire for correction/criticism. However, a sweet little old lady spoke up and reminded the instructor Deborah was more than Barak's friend, she was a prophetess and the judge of Israel. She then laid the BOOM by saying something like, "This should serve as a reminder to the mn in this Church that when HF appoints women to positions of authority you should listen to them and when they speak at GC, you shouldn't use the occasion to go make yourself a sandwich!" The instructor deftly lightened the tension with a light-hearted comment and abruptly fast forwarded to Gideon.

After class, I sought out my new BFF and introduced myself (her and her husband are new to the ward). I expressed my appreciation for her comments and then she said ... and this is the point of the story ...

"I'm starting to realize that I don't have much time left and SOMEONE needs to start speaking up for the women around here."

When I think of the OW movement, I usually think of a young "radical" women bucking the "establishment." But I wonder how many older women are just as frustrated the status quo and whether they aren't the ones who would have the most impact. Sister BFF is new to the ward so I doubt anyone but me still even remembers her comment. But if she was Sister Stake President's Wife or SIster Been There 30 Years, it might have caused quite a stir.

I have no thoughts or conclusions, just an interesting Sunday at the home ward.

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Interesting experience in SS ... We were in the Book of Judges and the discussion came around to Deborah. The instructor (a man who stands 10 feet tall in MY eyes) did not refer to her as a prophet(ess) or judge but rather as a "good friend" to Barak. Being in repentance mode, I stifled any desire for correction/criticism. However, a sweet little old lady spoke up and reminded the instructor Deborah was more than Barak's friend, she was a prophetess and the judge of Israel. She then laid the BOOM by saying something like, "This should serve as a reminder to the men in this Church that when HF appoints women to positions of authority you should listen to them and when they speak at GC, you shouldn't use the occasion to go make yourself a sandwich!" The instructor deftly lightened the tension with a light-hearted comment and abruptly fast forwarded to Gideon.

After class, I sought out my new BFF and introduced myself (her and her husband are new to the ward). I expressed my appreciation for her comments and then she said ... and this is the point of the story ...

"I'm starting to realize that I don't have much time left and SOMEONE needs to start speaking up for the women around here."

When I think of the OW movement, I usually think of a young "radical" women bucking the "establishment." But I wonder how many older women are just as frustrated with the status quo and whether they aren't the ones who would have the most impact. Sister BFF is new to the ward so I doubt anyone but me still even remembers her comment. But if she was Sister Stake President's Wife or SIster Been There 30 Years, it might have caused quite a stir.

I have no thoughts or conclusions, just an interesting Sunday at the home ward.

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And you see this is also the point. The use of words like condemn. Am I condemning her by critiquing her statements? No. I am analysing what she says and how she says it and looking into her tactics. Is this condemning? Such loaded words do not further the conversation but rather are designed to stifle it. But in our postmodern society, people wish to proclaim victim status and so, by using the word condemn, Kate Kelly becomes  a victim. Here is an interesting book about the victim revolution:

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/26/books/review/the-victims-revolution-by-bruce-bawer.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

 

Such is postmodernism with its stress on individual identities and group identities and non allowance of critique.

 

The part you said you were responding to was that their hearts are largely genuine. To say that the women are but Kate somehow isn't is not exactly stating she's an honorable person. It's condemning when you look consistently for the negative. I've looked a number of Kate's statements. She has a tendency towards foot-in-mouth syndrome. Some of her comments are more divisive than uniting of the larger church body or even other LDS feminist folk. I can critique everything and anything she says and I haven't always said the most positive things about her position. Where it jumps into condemn is when we assume that by reading these scant quotes we can assume where her heart truly is. I may not like Kelly's position. I may feel that I wouldn't be buds with her. But I see little evidence to assume that her purpose isn't what she says it is. And I'm not about to start mind (or in this case, heart) reading based on my perception of her short statements. You've given me small sound bites from a 2nd hand source from one quote that the blogger also reached a differing conclusion than after an hour talking to her. I pointed to a perfectly viable reading that did not make Kate some sort of power-grabbing revolutionary.

 

And I've said nothing about victimhood by stating there's use of condemnatory/accusatory language being used. I digress to what Benjamin stated earlier.

 

With luv,

BD

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Mormonnewb

You must be really full of yourself today....considering you quoted yourself. I mean, what you said is great and all....but I don't know if it was that great 

 

;)

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Interesting experience in SS ... We were in the Book of Judges and the discussion came around to Deborah. The instructor (a man who stands 10 feet tall in MY eyes) did not refer to her as a prophet(ess) or judge but rather as a "good friend" to Barak. Being in repentance mode, I stifled any desire for correction/criticism. However, a sweet little old lady spoke up and reminded the instructor Deborah was more than Barak's friend, she was a prophetess and the judge of Israel. She then laid the BOOM by saying something like, "This should serve as a reminder to the mn in this Church that when HF appoints women to positions of authority you should listen to them and when they speak at GC, you shouldn't use the occasion to go make yourself a sandwich!" The instructor deftly lightened the tension with a light-hearted comment and abruptly fast forwarded to Gideon.

After class, I sought out my new BFF and introduced myself (her and her husband are new to the ward). I expressed my appreciation for her comments and then she said ... and this is the point of the story ...

"I'm starting to realize that I don't have much time left and SOMEONE needs to start speaking up for the women around here."

When I think of the OW movement, I usually think of a young "radical" women bucking the "establishment." But I wonder how many older women are just as frustrated the status quo and whether they aren't the ones who would have the most impact. Sister BFF is new to the ward so I doubt anyone but me still even remembers her comment. But if she was Sister Stake President's Wife or SIster Been There 30 Years, it might have caused quite a stir.

I have no thoughts or conclusions, just an interesting Sunday at the home ward.

Let this be a lesson to every LDS out there!  Thanks for sharing!

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Some can see it as a curse since more is expected when one has the priesthood.

I have never heard one man tell me that it was a curse in person, only in conversations online where they are trying to justify women not having it. And I would like to see one leader who has ever remotely described it that way.

I do not agree with women being ordained to the Priesthood, I believe that there is likely a Priestesshood that awaits for women in God's time, but I find it absolutely absurd for anyone to attempt to diminish the wonder of being given the Gift of acting in God's power and authority so as to make it appear not so desirable or inequal. I suspect God will be giving some stern lessons about respecting and being fully grateful for one's blessings to those who do so.

Edited by calmoriah

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And the lesson is that feminist attitudes don't discriminate based on age. They can be espoused by both young and old, male and female, black or white, bond or free. Some of the most "out of order" women that I've come across in the church are of the unassuming "sweet little old lady" variety. Sorry - I couldn't resist!

Mike

Edited by Michael Sanders

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"Recognizing the fact that the Creator is the eternal and everlasting source of this power, that he alone can direct it, and that to possess it is to have the right, as an authorized representative, of direct communion with God, how reasonable yet sublime are the privileges and blessings made possible of attainment through the possession of the power and authority of the Melchizedek Priesthood—they are the most glorious that the human mind can contemplate.

A man who is thus in communion with his God will find his life sweetened, his discernment sharpened to decide quickly between right and wrong, his feelings tender and compassionate, yet his spirit strong and valiant in defense of right; he will find the priesthood a never failing source of happiness—a well of living water springing up unto eternal life."

From the DOM manual

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"Recognizing the fact that the Creator is the eternal and everlasting source of this power, that he alone can direct it, and that to possess it is to have the right, as an authorized representative, of direct communion with God, how reasonable yet sublime are the privileges and blessings made possible of attainment through the possession of the power and authority of the Melchizedek Priesthood—they are the most glorious that the human mind can contemplate.

A man who is thus in communion with his God will find his life sweetened, his discernment sharpened to decide quickly between right and wrong, his feelings tender and compassionate, yet his spirit strong and valiant in defense of right; he will find the priesthood a never failing source of happiness—a well of living water springing up unto eternal life."

From the DOM manual

 

And obviously, this means that a woman can't experience any of this without holding the priesthood.

 

I'll inform my wife immediately. She'll wonder what the heck she's been experiencing all these years.

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"President Benson has said, “The greatest power in this world is the power of the priesthood. … No greater honor or blessing can come to man than the authority to act in the name of God.” (The Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson, Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1988, p. 219.) What a privilege! What a trust!"

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/print/1991/04/to-honor-the-priesthood?lang=eng

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And obviously, this means that a woman can't experience any of this without holding the priesthood.

 

I'll inform my wife immediately. She'll wonder what the heck she's been experiencing all these years.

I am just posting what has been taught. Doesn't mean I agree with everything said...but if you feel the need to.

Again I do not believe the Priesthood is needed to fully serve God and men as an individual. However given what has been said over the years about it, I can understand why some people may come to that conclusion.

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I am just posting what has been taught. Doesn't mean I agree with everything said...but if you feel the need to.

Again I do not believe the Priesthood is needed to fully serve God and men as an individual. However given what has been said over the years about it, I can understand why some people may come to that conclusion.

 

Evidently, some people have trouble thinking outside the box and positioning things within the greater context of the entire gospel and real life.

 

And my outside the box thinking about the fact that some women in the church are not a bit behind the men when it comes to spirituality, service, blessings, and righteous influence tells me that there's something more to such quotes - especially when they are addressed specifically to men and not to women.

 

Besides, I can't think of a more sublime blessing and honor than to be the first to see and converse with the resurrected Savior. Her name happened to be Mary.

 

So the question remains. If someone is demanding the priesthood, what is it that they actually want?

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"Evidently, some people have trouble thinking outside the box and positioning things within the greater context of the entire gospel and real life."

Yes, some people do (there are a lot of devotional LDS books out there being published to help people do just that so it should hardly be surprising, I found it shocking that Believing Christ ended up a best seller and people were talking about how it changed their lives when I thought what he said was the simplest part of the gospel, but then I am sure there are areas where I am clueless) ..so why the need to assume that there is something else behind their motivation, something else that they want?

I heard a lot of people saying that they had never viewed the relationship of women to the Priesthood in the way it has been recently taught in conference. People learn line upon line. Those not so understanding in the Priesthood area might be decades ahead in the faith, hope or charity field. Why waste time in suspecting or even condemning others when we could be testifying of the good things of the gospel instead and adding light to others' lives rather than contention and darkness?

Edited by calmoriah

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Ben, somehow I missed this posts, and I think it requires some clarification. Thanks for your reply.

Overall I think we are actually in agreement on nearly all points, but I have concerns about others.

I didn't deny this. What I said is that this gendered notion of God creates challenges for the women in the Church - and its a challenge that men usually no effort to understand. It's that last part that is the problem. They are perfectly happy understanding that they can be just like God, and that the women can never be just like God. And it doesn't matter if they want the priesthood - that, apparently is part of the being just like God that isn't available to them. And there it goes ...

But they can be just like Heavenly Mother.
I see no escape from the simple fact that what makes Mormonism what it is, is the concept of a gendered God. Either you accept that or you do not grasp the importance of an immanent, God who is our father. The Proclamation makes sex roles firm doctrine- no matter how you define "doctrine", I think, and I am with Blake Ostler who believes we have no "doctrine". But honestly you cannot get more basic in Mormonism than the Nature of God as a gendered being.

I am earnestly sorry that some sisters are offended that they cannot be "just like God", but on the other hand none of us will ever be "just like the Holy Ghost", and I will never be just like Heavenly Mother.

I wish it could be made better, but can you think of a way we keep what makes Mormonism, Mormonism, without defining sex differences away? Seriously- I think this is one of the problems that those of a theological bent in the church need to face and issues of incredible importance, upon which we need to dialogue. At the moment, the only answer I see is the status quo.
 

Making men more sensitive to the issue is of course important, but the bottom line is that we will still be telling the sisters that they cannot have the priesthood in a more sensitive way.

 

Does Heavenly Mother have the Priesthood?  Perhaps it is time to find our more about that.  Perhaps the answer to the issue is to have a firm statement on Heavenly Mother from the First Presidency.  But there is a reason, I think God has decided not to teach more about that.  I don't see an answer.

 

So what basis do you see in the theology of the Godhead which would allow women to have the Priesthood?


So what are you saying here? I am not sure I am following you - you mean, eliminate PEC and have the Ward Council be the primary management meeting? I am all for it. But until it happens, the problem persists.

That's what I am saying, yes.  PEC serves no real purpose anymore- I have been attending both meetings for probably 25 years in many wards and I don't think I recall a time in which there was ANY difference in the topics discussed, the level of confidentiality, etc between the two meetings.  The only difference is that the sisters are not in one meeting and are in the other.  Let them come to both.  But frankly I would love to have permission to miss half those meetings.  I don't understand why women would want to come, but if they do, let them come.  It would make running the ward easier to not have to repeat "what happened last week" and move the work forward faster, in my opinion, if the sisters were also at all meetings.
 

But in your sarcasm (and yes it comes across as sarcasm to me) you miss some of the really vital issues here. What a wonderful thing for a woman with marriage trouble to council with another woman, instead of having to council with a man. Would you, as a man, really want to go to your Relief Society President and talk to her about your marital trouble (especially if that trouble relates to sensitive gender related issues)? It is a serious questions. And there is even more to it than this. We can't just say that women are already involved in the leadership of the Branch at the highest levels, we need to make it visible, and formal, so that our daughters can see that there is value in Church leadership, and value in helping counsel their sisters in the gospel.

No sarcasm, and I meant it.  I would have no problems discussing my marriage with the Relief Society president, IF she would desire to hear it.  I think women are far better at counseling than men, in general terms, anyway.  I would have no problem- should a sister seem reticent to discuss intimate issues with me as a Bishop to send her to the Relief Society president- IF THAT WAS PERMITTED, and under the present system, sending her to a female LDS counselor and paying for it if necessary. 

 

Obviously the church employs women counselors in Social Services, and Bishops refer couples- men and women individually as well- to these sisters, so I see no difference (except of course in training and professionalism- a huge issue for both sexes) in ability to perform the duties.  

 

Clearly these sisters serve as professionals and are trained in LDS counseling and do all and more than Bishops do, except make judgement calls on church discipline, so I cannot see how anyone could fault having sisters who are close friends help them with counseling.

 

Yet someone has to make the judgement call on church discipline, and as I see it, that needs to remain the Bishop who is ordained to do so.
 

And if, as you note, the sexes are complementary as well as different, then we need both to have true leadership (and representative leadership) in the Church. One side - the men - do not (in that scenario) have all the understanding and awareness. But yet we teach just the opposite and we give the perception of the opposite: men can do it all without the women and women can do nothing without the men.

IF that is the perception, I agree that it is wrong.  But I think many women would dispute that it IS the perception.  Maybe I am wrong about that- in any case, I think that the gospel demands men and women working together, each using their unique talents, working as a team, to achieve immortality and eternal life.

 

That is the essence of the gospel, and if we are not doing it, we need to repent.

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"But they can be just like Heavenly Mother."

And as soon as we know what that is this will be quite helpful.

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So the question remains. If someone is demanding the priesthood, what is it that they actually want?

 

The capacity to serve and feel a different means of the blessing of the spirit.  A personal example: I've been serving in the temple as an ordinance worker for 2 yrs. I'm also a grad student, who's extremely busy. I have gotten multiple migraines over the last year from the level of stress and tension. And yet I still am going. Why? A part of that is because the temple is the only legitimate place where I can lay my hands upon a sister's head and bestow the blessings of Christ over her. Now, do you need priesthood ordination to do that? Apparently in the past you didn't. But today you do outside of the temple. When someone sits there and tells me that bearing the priesthood is hard and such a burden and almost a curse, it smacks of ingratitude for what God has given. I won't deny that being a patron in the House is a different but just as spiritual blessing as giving the ordinance rites to them...the spirit enriches all that are there to receive. I love the distinctive experience of acting in the name of the Lord in this fashion and it keeps me where I'm at because I realize that if I leave I will lose a blessing that I cannot have in any other way.  

 

Now, I think most of these things that OW mentions can be given without necessarily giving the priesthood. Participation and greater decision making can and is changing to incorporate and place greater value of the input of female leaders. There's nothing, doctrinally, that states a woman couldn't give a blessing in the name of Christ....it's been done before and fell out of favor....but it could come back. You can begin showing women in priesthood/church roles as more active and dynamic than what's often the norm of receiving and more domestic in emphasis. Etc. But I can't blame them for seeing the same disparity that I see and hope for an immediate solution. To them the easy answer is ordain the women too. I don't agree. I think it's over-simplified and inadvertently loses much of the distinct contribution and power women have to give.  I may think that their understanding, logic, and reasons are inherently flawed. But I see no reason to question why they would want the priesthood. Who wouldn't want a new capacity to experience the hand of the Lord?

 

With luv,

Bd

Edited by BlueDreams

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Besides, I can't think of a more sublime blessing and honor than to be the first to see and converse with the resurrected Savior. Her name happened to be Mary.?

And apparently no one believed her:

" 11 And they, when they had heard that he was alive, and had been seen of her, believed not."

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I have never heard one man tell me that it was a curse in person, only in conversations online where they are trying to justify women not having it. And I would like to see one leader who has ever remotely described it that way.

I do not agree with women being ordained to the Priesthood, I believe that there is likely a Priestesshood that awaits for women in God's time, but I find it absolutely absurd for anyone to attempt to diminish the wonder of being given the Gift of acting in God's power and authority so as to make it appear not so desirable or inequal. I suspect God will be giving some stern lessons about respecting and being fully grateful for one's blessings to those who do so.

Bravissima!

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"Recognizing the fact that the Creator is the eternal and everlasting source of this power, that he alone can direct it, and that to possess it is to have the right, as an authorized representative, of direct communion with God, how reasonable yet sublime are the privileges and blessings made possible of attainment through the possession of the power and authority of the Melchizedek Priesthood—they are the most glorious that the human mind can contemplate.

A man who is thus in communion with his God will find his life sweetened, his discernment sharpened to decide quickly between right and wrong, his feelings tender and compassionate, yet his spirit strong and valiant in defense of right; he will find the priesthood a never failing source of happiness—a well of living water springing up unto eternal life."

From the DOM manual

What's DOM?

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