Ordain Women Group Publishes "six Discussions" To Proselytize For Its Agenda

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

 

This is their definition of patriarchy-

 

"It’s where men have all the authority and are necessary leaders for the organization to function. Women are subordinated. Women have roles, and they might be needed, but they are overseen by men and they are not necessary to the governing, rule-making, and ultimate decisions of the culture like male leaders are.”

They sound like a bunch of babies. Sorry but that is how it comes across.

[mfbukowski]

Women take on the sins of their children if they don't teach them correctly.

It seems likely to me that if anyone leads another astray whether through teaching or judgment or whatever, they bear that responsibility as far as they are personally accountable.

Big difference is that fathers bear that same responsibility for those same kids, so they have that in addition

[Scott Lloyd]

What I think bothers me most about the six discussions is that OW is advocating using church resources (such as ward bulletins and email lists) and church members to teach against church doctrine and sow discontent within the membership.

 

People are not to use Church resources to facilitate political campaigns or agenda. I should think use of such resources ought to be denied to the OW movement on that basis alone.

 

Any bishop who permits it would be derelict in his duty, and anyone who sees it happening in his/her ward ought to firmly and persistently object to it.

Edited May 28, 2014 by Scott Lloyd

[Tacenda]

I don't like how it's okay for JS to start polygamy because he went to God and asked if he should live it, and apparently an angel with a drawn sword says he better!  And yet he went to the Lord and asked, why didn't the Lord come to him first?  That has always felt suspicious. 

 

Not all angels are from God, like in this scripture,  2 Corinthians 11:14 - And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

 

So JS is visited by an angel and everything is alright, but if the OW feel they are in the right, everyone calls them babies.  I ran across this scripture....  1 Corinthians 11:10 - For this cause ought the woman to have power on [her] head because of the angels. 

 

So it's okay to believe JS even though he has made many mistakes, but not Kate Kelly.   

[Raharu]

So it's okay to believe JS even though he has made many mistakes, but not Kate Kelly.   

 

Apparently.

 

I think some people just don't like their world view messed with. It's inconvenient.

[why me]

I'll be worried about the group when the leadership of the church expresses that sentiment.

In the mean time this thread seems flooded by fear mongers who have jumped the gun on where the church actually is on the subject.

I don't think that it is flooded by fear mongers. But one needs to know their foundational ideology in order to understand their tactics. I have said it from the beginning that they are using church vocabulary to lure lds women into supporting them and yet, have the same tactics as any radical feminist organization attacking patriarchy. And if we take it a step further, heavenly father is a male and as such, they would most likely feel more comfortable praying to heavenly mother, which will also be on their agenda if they get their way with the priesthood.

[why me]

I don't like how it's okay for JS to start polygamy because he went to God and asked if he should live it, and apparently an angel with a drawn sword says he better!  And yet he went to the Lord and asked, why didn't the Lord come to him first?  That has always felt suspicious. 

 

Not all angels are from God, like in this scripture,  2 Corinthians 11:14 - And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

 

  

In the bible the angel with a sword is a common message from god. It is located in a couple of places. So, no problem with the angel with the sword. You would have to take it up with god with the writers of the bible. Of course, those who are critical of the sword and polygamy often overlook the bible references.

[Ahab]

I don't like how it's okay for JS to start polygamy because he went to God and asked if he should live it, and apparently an angel with a drawn sword says he better! And yet he went to the Lord and asked, why didn't the Lord come to him first? That has always felt suspicious.

Not all angels are from God, like in this scripture, 2 Corinthians 11:14 - And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

So JS is visited by an angel and everything is alright, but if the OW feel they are in the right, everyone calls them babies. I ran across this scripture.... 1 Corinthians 11:10 - For this cause ought the woman to have power on [her] head because of the angels.

So it's okay to believe JS even though he has made many mistakes, but not Kate Kelly.

Each one of us can go to God through prayer to ask him what he thinks and how he feels about what either Joseph Smith and/or Kate Kelly say and then either agree or disagree with God from there.

And while I agree with what God has told me about Joseph Smith and Kate Kelly, that doesn't mean I should believe what Kate Kelly says or thinks about the priesthood of God. I believe what Joseph said God told him only because God has told me the same things while putting his stamp of approval on him and what he said. What Kate says is contrary to what God has told me both personally and through those with his priesthood.

Edited May 28, 2014 by Ahab

[Raharu]

I don't think that it is flooded by fear mongers. But one needs to know their foundational ideology in order to understand their tactics. I have said it from the beginning that they are using church vocabulary to lure lds women into supporting them and yet, have the same tactics as any radical feminist organization attacking patriarchy. And if we take it a step further, heavenly father is a male and as such, they would most likely feel more comfortable praying to heavenly mother, which will also be on their agenda if they get their way with the priesthood.

 

Some children are more comfortable discussing certain things with there father and certain other things with their mother. That's a pretty normal feeling.

[why me]

They sound like a bunch of babies. Sorry but that is how it comes across.

Radical feminism is sort of out of fashion these days. But back in the seventies it was very popular among women feminists. But as time passed other feminisms took center stage. Many women did not think that the male was the root of all evil. Some found fault in the social and economic system and worked to bring a more equal social relations by stressing a change in ideology: Marxist feminism and socialist feminism are examples of this. But for OW it is the patriarchal control of the GAs that is the problem. The OW movement would be rather happy with the setup that the community of christ have.

[bluebell]

People are not to use Church resources to facilitate political campaigns or agenda. I should think use of such resources ought to be denied to the OW movement on that basis alone.

 

Any bishop who permits it would be derelict in his duty, and anyone who sees it happening in his/her ward ought to firmly and persistently object to it.

 

If the church does make a statement about these 6 discussions, I would bet that this is the topic they will address-the use of church resources.

[bluebell]

They sound like a bunch of babies. Sorry but that is how it comes across.

 

I don't think they sound like babies, but i do think they sound like nonmembers working on a solely political issue.

[Tacenda]

In the bible the angel with a sword is a common message from god. It is located in a couple of places. So, no problem with the angel with the sword. You would have to take it up with god with the writers of the bible. Of course, those who are critical of the sword and polygamy often overlook the bible references.

It's so common that anyone might use it to help their case.  Who's to say that Kate Kelly hasn't been inspired also. 

[Scott Lloyd]

It's so common that anyone might use it to help their case.  Who's to say that Kate Kelly hasn't been inspired also. 

Thing is, God doesn't contradict Himself. You can't have the Brethren inspired one way and Kate Kelly's group inspired the opposite way and regard both as having been inspired of God.

[bluebell]

Who's to say that Kate Kelly hasn't been inspired also. 

 

Do you believe that God would call a prophet to lead His church, and then give revelation for how the church is supposed to function to a random member so that the random member could fix the problem?

[Tacenda]

Thing is, God doesn't contradict Himself. You can't have the Brethren inspired one way and Kate Kelly's group inspired the opposite way and regard both as having been inspired of God.

Why haven't the leaders responded to them that they've gone to the Lord?  Though I'm pretty sure that won't be enough to get them to back off, but don't they at least deserve that?  Women in this church are sometimes coddled like babies, but they apparently don't deserve that much respect? 

 

I think the 6 discussion are compelling, things I had never thought of.  Just because I don't want the PH and all that it entails me to do, doesn't mean some women might not like it.  To them they feel called to it.  Unlike the thousands out there that couldn't care less to hold it.  Why can't it be a case by case basis?  If this church can stop polygamy in this life in order for the church to become a state, why not allow women in the PH?  Same with many of the things in the church that have changed, this church is an ongoing living organism where nothing is quite set in stone, that is what makes it so unique.     

[Raharu]

Thing is, God doesn't contradict Himself. You can't have the Brethren inspired one way and Kate Kelly's group inspired the opposite way and regard both as having been inspired of God.

 

Someone might view some of God's commandment as contradictions. For example: He commands that we shall not kill, even writes it on a fancy tablet, and the commands His servants to kill throughout the Bible and Book of Mormon. My understanding behind the 6th commandment is that people shall not decide who lives and who dies - that is for God to decide.

 

It may be that what appears to be a contradiction in this case is also a misunderstanding. Of course, that sort of thinking would be awfully convenient for anyone who wishes to go against God's commandments.

[why me]

Some children are more comfortable discussing certain things with there father and certain other things with their mother. That's a pretty normal feeling.

When one thinks about it, god seems to be very 'sexist'. The trinity is male. The twelve apostles were men. And the bible writers in the NT were men. Christian faiths do not have a heavenly mother. They just have a male god. If OW ever takes up the cause of heavenly mother it wouldn't be based on a normal feeling but on advocating more equality within the heavenly family.

[why me]

It's so common that anyone might use it to help their case.  Who's to say that Kate Kelly hasn't been inspired also. 

Because she doesn't seem to act with inspiration but rather she acts with a political ideology. Thus the problem.

[SeekingUnderstanding]

Do you believe that God would call a prophet to lead His church, and then give revelation for how the church is supposed to function to a random member so that the random member could fix the problem?

 

This would depend on whether the Prophet was actively seeking on the issue or just "continuing to hold a view and understanding that presumably most faithful Latter-day Saints -- including at least a few presidents of the Church -- have held for generations."

[Raharu]

Do you believe that God would call a prophet to lead His church, and then give revelation for how the church is supposed to function to a random member so that the random member could fix the problem?

 

Um, isn't that kind of what the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is based on? Also, the Doctrine and Covenants contain revelation prompted by various "random" members' questions and concerns.

 

 

When one thinks about it, god seems to be very 'sexist'. The trinity is male. The twelve apostles were men. And the bible writers in the NT were men. Christian faiths do not have a heavenly mother. They just have a male god. If OW ever takes up the cause of heavenly mother it wouldn't be based on a normal feeling but on advocating more equality within the heavenly family.

 

And advocating equality is not a normal feeling?

 

 

Because she doesn't seem to act with inspiration but rather she acts with a political ideology. Thus the problem.

 

 

I suppose some people who supported giving women the right to vote were acting with a political ideology. I don't think that is a problem. Basic human rights, while debated politically, come from a higher ideology.

[why me]

Why haven't the leaders responded to them that they've gone to the Lord?  Though I'm pretty sure that won't be enough to get them to back off, but don't they at least deserve that?  Women in this church are sometimes coddled like babies, but they apparently don't deserve that much respect? 

   

If I wrote the the GAs and asked them to pray about allowing polygamy again, should they respond to me that they have prayed and received a no? What if a group of latter day saints wish the GAs to pray about allowing members to officially pray to heavenly mother? Should the GAs pray and respond to that group? Don't these people also deserve that? Don't these people also deserve respect?

 

Why did god choose Paul and not a Pauline? Why were all the original apostles men? And why is the trinity male? Why are the 11 witnesses to the book of mormon male? And why choose Christ who is male to be the savior? Why not a woman? Lets write to the GAs and ask them to pray for answers. All this reminds of George Burns in the movie Oh God with john denver:

 

 

There is also a scene in the movie where George Burns who plays god is told to answer questions by the religious experts.

[why me]

 

 

I suppose some people who supported giving women the right to vote were acting with a political ideology. I don't think that is a problem. Basic human rights, while debated politically, come from a higher ideology.

They were coming from a particular ideology. When it comes to religion however, no church can be seen to be kowtowing to such political pressure from its members. It basically sends the message that the church is then run by human beings and not by god. So, we do have a difference between women getting the right to vote in the secular world but such pressure would not work within a religious faith which claims revelation.

 

And this is why the Orthodox Church, the Catholic Church and the LDS church cannot be seen to be submitting to member pressure.

[why me]

 

And advocating equality is not a normal feeling?

 

 

 

You  will need to take this up with god. The questions I asked Tacenda are still relevant when it comes to heavenly equality within the heavenly family. And why god chose only male apostles at the time of christ etc.

Edited May 28, 2014 by why me

[Raharu]

They were coming from a particular ideology. When it comes to religion however, no church can be seen to be kowtowing to such political pressure from its members. It basically sends the message that the church is then run by human beings and not by god. So, we do have a difference between women getting the right to vote in the secular world but such pressure would not work within a religious faith which claims revelation.

 

And this is why the Orthodox Church, the Catholic Church and the LDS church cannot be seen to be submitting to member pressure.

 

A castle is run by servants, the White House is run by its staff. The Church is run by human beings in service to their God. The Church has already been seen "kowtowing" through the abandonment of polygamy on Earth whilst adhering to the Twelfth Article of Faith. The Doctrine and Covenants contain answers to members' questions about the Church.