DBMormon Posted January 15, 2015 Author Share Posted January 15, 2015 The problem is that he doesn't understand that it's ALL folklore but that's ok.not exactly... for instance read this message I sent to a struggling listener and I also pasted on facebook a few days ago A PIECE OF MY TESTIMONY (shared this with a friend today)When I joined the Church, my foundation was the Church and Christ was a tangent of that foundation. Now on the other side of my faith shift, Christ is my foundation and the Church is a tangent of that foundation... my point in saying this is that the Church's job is to bring me to Christ... and even in its visible weakness and failings... it does just that... In fact I could argue it is only through its mistakes and visibly falling short of my expectations and assumptions that this would have happened, otherwise I would have kept the Church as my foundation forever never fully turning to Christ..The BOM (historically true or not) is true, because it brings me to Christ. The Church, divinely appointed or not is true because it brings me to Christ. This is how one gets to the point that historicity is no longer important to them. One moves on to bigger questions, deeper questions in their mind. ( For those who struggle - Does this make sense?) 1 Link to comment
mfbukowski Posted January 15, 2015 Share Posted January 15, 2015 not exactly... for instance read this message I sent to a struggling listener and I also pasted on facebook a few days agoSounds good to me, but then why the hassle over this silly little stuff? 1 Link to comment
DBMormon Posted January 15, 2015 Author Share Posted January 15, 2015 (edited) Sounds good to me, but then why the hassle over this silly little stuff?Because I still believe that as much as we can find and discover truth we ought to embrace it. the more our faith is reasonable and is able to brush off complete nonsense, the more people who will stick around and stay on the boat. If people as they seek truth see within their minds an unreasonable unsubstantiated claims with evidence running contrary, more will lose faith and leave than if they see the nonsense being explained and let go of and their being permitted to see the Church is willing to address some of its claims that the evidence is building against. I know it has helped me stay to see the creation is permitted to be seen figuratively, I know it has helped to see the fall that way too. It has helped to see the Book of Abraham as likely not a direct translation. It has helped that the Church now acknowledges that while it taught a story of nephite interpreters it was a stone in a hat that is more reasonable. The more reasonable you make it, the more people who stay. My effort whether people here agree or not, it to help people stay by making our faith as reasonable as it can be within God's view. If the facts point us to letting some side gnat of a tangent go from our beliefs.... then let it go.... which is why I can't. Edited January 15, 2015 by DBMormon Link to comment
Boanerges Posted January 15, 2015 Share Posted January 15, 2015 Sounds good to me, but then why the hassle over this silly little stuff?If I might also venture an answer. It's because this seemingly little stuff is the kind of stuff that can lead one to faith crisis. When someone encounters something that they wholeheartedly believe - perhaps even with a testimony of some sort of that idea - and that idea suddenly seems like it might be false, crisis follows. Do I really think a crisis might ensue over Christ's actual birthday? No, not all by itself. When a faith crisis hits, to quote Pres. Uchtdorf, "It is not that simple." People in faith crisis find themselves questioning everything and often jumping to the conclusion that if this isn't true, then the rest of it must not be true, either. Interestingly enough, we are taught that - for instance it has been taught from the GC pulpit that if Joseph Smith was a prophet, then the Book of Mormon must be true, therefore the church is true, etc. If it works that way, it must also work that way in reverse. The recent polygamy essays, particularly the last one, are a great example - many people were moved to the brink of crisis because they didn't know Joseph practiced polygamy or if they did know, they didn't know he married other people's wives and (nearly 15-year-old) 14-year-olds. It is when we stray from true doctrine, the simple core principles of the gospel, that the trouble begins. To me it doesn't matter when Christ was born, it matters that He was born, that he lived and taught and suffered and died and was resurrected. That's doctrine, His birthday is not because it doesn't matter in the big picture. Polygamy also doesn't matter to me, even though I believe it was a false doctrine/teaching - I still believe Joseph had a vision of the Father and the Son and that he was a prophet and that much of what he did and said bring me closer to Christ and help me be a more Christlike individual. So when someone learns that Christ's actual birthday was in September or December (both plausible alternate times) and thinks to themselves "but the scripture says it was April 6, and Apostles verified that, how can it not be true?" the are brought to question everything - which sometimes leads them back (as it did DBMormon and I) and sometimes leads them to become anti and sometimes leads them to any variety of places in between. That's why little non-doctrines matter. It is too easy for people to be led astray by the suppositions of men, even if those men are sincere in their beliefs. I believe the church is making a sincere effort to cut much of the DOM/JFS/SWK/McConkie era crap, and Bednar's comment was a hiccup. Link to comment
mfbukowski Posted January 15, 2015 Share Posted January 15, 2015 (edited) Because I still believe that as much as we can find and discover truth we ought to embrace it. the more our faith is reasonable and is able to brush off complete nonsense, the more people who will stick around and stay on the boat. If people as they seek truth see within their minds an unreasonable unsubstantiated claims with evidence running contrary, more will lose faith and leave than if they see the nonsense being explained and let go of and their being permitted to see the Church is willing to address some of its claims that the evidence is building against. I know it has helped me stay to see the creation is permitted to be seen figuratively, I know it has helped to see the fall that way too. It has helped to see the Book of Abraham as likely not a direct translation. It has helped that the Church now acknowledges that while it taught a story of nephite interpreters it was a stone in a hat that is more reasonable. The more reasonable you make it, the more people who stay. My effort whether people here agree or not, it to help people stay by making our faith as reasonable as it can be within God's view. If the facts point us to letting some side gnat of a tangent go from our beliefs.... then let it go.... which is why I can't.In other words, then you do not understand that it is all "folklore" in the sense I said earlier, as science is, an attempt by inspired men to grasp what is ultimately unknowable using the paltry tools of symbolic language. You are still wanting to "discover truth" instead of creating it. What we call truth is putting together the best explanation we can until something better comes along. If you knew that was what truth IS, inconsistencies would not bother you. You would just adjust your theory accordingly and test it experientially until it all comes together We are here to organize worlds, not "discover" them already made and perfected. What has helped you stay is creating your own understanding- what needs to be done is to teach others to create their own understanding instead of them thinking there is "truth" to be discovered. There are no facts, just interpretations. THAT is what we need to teach, and that is the essence of Alma 32 as well. Test out your interpretation and see if it grows "sweet" to you and add to it until we reach "knowledge". That is a creative process, not a passive "hand the truth to me" approach. Edited January 15, 2015 by mfbukowski 2 Link to comment
ERayR Posted January 15, 2015 Share Posted January 15, 2015 If I might also venture an answer. It's because this seemingly little stuff is the kind of stuff that can lead one to faith crisis Not if your faith is centered in Christ as DB stated. If that is the case all the rest of this peripheral stuff is irrelevant. Link to comment
Mars Posted January 15, 2015 Share Posted January 15, 2015 To be honest, I can see why this would bug DBMormon. We are asked to have faith that the men and women who speak to us at Conference are called of God, and in some cases are sustained as Prophets, Seers, and Revelators. Just spitballing, here, but: We use inconsistency a lot in armchair decision making. Our politics and opinions aren't considered valid unless they're squared away and make sense. We tend to find out if someone's lying if they start to contradict themselves. Sensing an inconsistency, or contradiction, can give a guy pause. How much pause and for how long is probably a function of our preconceived ideas, notions, experiences, and expectations. I still don't really agree with DBMormon that any of this stuff is really important - neither the date nor the over arching principle it illustrated - but I think I can see why it would bug him. 1 Link to comment
thesometimesaint Posted January 15, 2015 Share Posted January 15, 2015 It is just one of those things we put up with in this life, things like ambiguity, corrections, emendations, and the like. We all see through that glass darkly. Someday I hope to know the meaning of all things, but it probably isn't going to be in my lifetime here on earth. 4 Link to comment
Popular Post mfbukowski Posted January 15, 2015 Popular Post Share Posted January 15, 2015 If I might also venture an answer. It's because this seemingly little stuff is the kind of stuff that can lead one to faith crisis. When someone encounters something that they wholeheartedly believe - perhaps even with a testimony of some sort of that idea - and that idea suddenly seems like it might be false, crisis follows. Do I really think a crisis might ensue over Christ's actual birthday? No, not all by itself. When a faith crisis hits, to quote Pres. Uchtdorf, "It is not that simple." People in faith crisis find themselves questioning everything and often jumping to the conclusion that if this isn't true, then the rest of it must not be true, either. Interestingly enough, we are taught that - for instance it has been taught from the GC pulpit that if Joseph Smith was a prophet, then the Book of Mormon must be true, therefore the church is true, etc. If it works that way, it must also work that way in reverse. The recent polygamy essays, particularly the last one, are a great example - many people were moved to the brink of crisis because they didn't know Joseph practiced polygamy or if they did know, they didn't know he married other people's wives and (nearly 15-year-old) 14-year-olds. It is when we stray from true doctrine, the simple core principles of the gospel, that the trouble begins. To me it doesn't matter when Christ was born, it matters that He was born, that he lived and taught and suffered and died and was resurrected. That's doctrine, His birthday is not because it doesn't matter in the big picture. Polygamy also doesn't matter to me, even though I believe it was a false doctrine/teaching - I still believe Joseph had a vision of the Father and the Son and that he was a prophet and that much of what he did and said bring me closer to Christ and help me be a more Christlike individual. So when someone learns that Christ's actual birthday was in September or December (both plausible alternate times) and thinks to themselves "but the scripture says it was April 6, and Apostles verified that, how can it not be true?" the are brought to question everything - which sometimes leads them back (as it did DBMormon and I) and sometimes leads them to become anti and sometimes leads them to any variety of places in between. That's why little non-doctrines matter. It is too easy for people to be led astray by the suppositions of men, even if those men are sincere in their beliefs. I believe the church is making a sincere effort to cut much of the DOM/JFS/SWK/McConkie era crap, and Bednar's comment was a hiccup.That is because they have been taught to take everything they learn at face value as infallible "truth" instead of figuring these things out and going with the best theory that works best for them in their lives. I am convinced that that is what the LDS church teaches- IS the very best thought model mankind can come up with- and that this model is "inspired" - as an explanation of our place in the universe, and that this model can be the basis of the most ideal society we can conceive of as humans. Pure Alma 32 THAT to me is how we avoid all this silliness about faith crisises based on how many wives Joseph had or April 6th, evolution, or the flood, or what some GA said a hundred years ago, or yesterday for that matter. It is just crazy to me that adults in the 21st century would lose the wonder of the gospel over silly stuff like that! We need to teach that the gospel is far far more than a collection of "truth claims" which are verifiable and upon which the church rests. The gospel is a way of life, a way of thinking, a way of approaching our problems and the world, not the silly "truth claims" of people who lived 150 years ago in the deserts of Utah, trying to eke out a living. We would be lost without those wonderful souls, but the world has moved on. The gospel is alive today and we need to let others know it. 6 Link to comment
Mars Posted January 15, 2015 Share Posted January 15, 2015 It is just one of those things we put up with in this life, things like ambiguity, corrections, emendations, and the like. We all see through that glass darkly. Someday I hope to know the meaning of all things, but it probably isn't going to be in my lifetime here on earth. rep point awarded. Link to comment
ERayR Posted January 15, 2015 Share Posted January 15, 2015 (edited) To be honest, I can see why this would bug DBMormon. We are asked to have faith that the men and women who speak to us at Conference are called of God, and in some cases are sustained as Prophets, Seers, and Revelators. Just spitballing, here, but: We use inconsistency a lot in armchair decision making. Our politics and opinions aren't considered valid unless they're squared away and make sense. We tend to find out if someone's lying if they start to contradict themselves. Sensing an inconsistency, or contradiction, can give a guy pause. How much pause and for how long is probably a function of our preconceived ideas, notions, experiences, and expectations. I still don't really agree with DBMormon that any of this stuff is really important - neither the date nor the over arching principle it illustrated - but I think I can see why it would bug him. A basic part of the LDS experience is seeking and receiving personal revelation then coming together to discuss it with our fellow saints. "Thus all may be edified". Edited January 15, 2015 by ERayR 1 Link to comment
Mars Posted January 15, 2015 Share Posted January 15, 2015 A basic part of the LDS experience is seeking and receiving personal revelation then coming together to discuss it with our fellow saints. "Thus all may be edified". I get that. I do. It's why I mostly disagree with both the minute example of false doctrine as well as the larger problem that DBMormon thinks it poses. We *do* see through a glass, darkly. It is difficult to discern and be confident you're getting it right. It's a learning curve, it's gonna have frustration and pain associated with it. Knowing that it's all so murky and difficult to navigate has had the effect of tempering my expectations and made me abandon the desire to have a comprehensive and 100% consistent list of beliefs and actions that follow perfectly, but that's me. 1 Link to comment
Boanerges Posted January 15, 2015 Share Posted January 15, 2015 Not if your faith is centered in Christ as DB stated. If that is the case all the rest of this peripheral stuff is irrelevant.I agree, and knowing DBMormon as I do (from here and other boards as well as his other online endeavors) I think he also agrees. But we are both at a level of faith and testimony where that is true for us. My observations of the average ward member indicates that is not the case for most of them. To me all the rest is peropheral and irrelevant. To me it boils down to believing Christ and doing as He said - which, it turns out, mostly involves loving our neighbors. Link to comment
Boanerges Posted January 15, 2015 Share Posted January 15, 2015 We need to teach that the gospel is far far more than a collection of "truth claims" which are verifiable and upon which the church rests. The gospel is a way of life, a way of thinking, a way of approaching our problems and the world, not the silly "truth claims" of people who lived 150 years ago in the deserts of Utah, trying to eke out a living. We would be lost without those wonderful souls, but the world has moved on. The gospel is alive today and we need to let others know it. I couldn't agree more. (But I will argue that a faith crisis is not silly to those who have experienced it.) Link to comment
Calm Posted January 15, 2015 Share Posted January 15, 2015 I get that. I do. It's why I mostly disagree with both the minute example of false doctrine as well as the larger problem that DBMormon thinks it poses. We *do* see through a glass, darkly. It is difficult to discern and be confident you're getting it right. It's a learning curve, it's gonna have frustration and pain associated with it. Knowing that it's all so murky and difficult to navigate has had the effect of tempering my expectations and made me abandon the desire to have a comprehensive and 100% consistent list of beliefs and actions that follow perfectly, but that's me.And it has made it more fun…at least for me. 3 Link to comment
Mars Posted January 15, 2015 Share Posted January 15, 2015 And it has made it more fun…at least for me. It's better once you get there... Until you do, it's a pain in the tuckus. "Certainty? In the midst of ambiguity and nuance? About something as imminent as my eternal life?" 1 Link to comment
ERayR Posted January 15, 2015 Share Posted January 15, 2015 I get that. I do. It's why I mostly disagree with both the minute example of false doctrine as well as the larger problem that DBMormon thinks it poses. We *do* see through a glass, darkly. It is difficult to discern and be confident you're getting it right. It's a learning curve, it's gonna have frustration and pain associated with it. Knowing that it's all so murky and difficult to navigate has had the effect of tempering my expectations and made me abandon the desire to have a comprehensive and 100% consistent list of beliefs and actions that follow perfectly, but that's me. That is the way it was designed. It allows us experience in critical thinking and decision making. 1 Link to comment
Mars Posted January 15, 2015 Share Posted January 15, 2015 That is the way it was designed. It allows us experience in critical thinking and decision making. Well, yeah... I imagine this is by and large how the fight in the War in Heaven played out. Lucifer: So you expect people to be able to make the right choices in the midst of having zero clue about their divine origins? That people can choose the right despite having a natural man to fight against and no unequivocal knowledge as to why sin is sin? That people can hear and follow Father's message amid the clamour of voices and tumult of opinion? Do you really believe Jesus' plan will work? I don't... 1 Link to comment
ERayR Posted January 15, 2015 Share Posted January 15, 2015 Well, yeah... I imagine this is by and large how the fight in the War in Heaven played out. Lucifer: So you expect people to be able to make the right choices in the midst of having zero clue about their divine origins? That people can choose the right despite having a natural man to fight against and no unequivocal knowledge as to why sin is sin? That people can hear and follow Father's message amid the clamour of voices and tumult of opinion? Do you really believe Jesus' plan will work? I don't... I suspect that it might be a valuable skill needed for future assignments. Link to comment
Mars Posted January 15, 2015 Share Posted January 15, 2015 I suspect that it might be a valuable skill needed for future assignments. I sure hope those future skills involve "How fast can you eat this bacon cheeseburger?" Because I'm pretty good at that. 1 Link to comment
ERayR Posted January 15, 2015 Share Posted January 15, 2015 I sure hope those future skills involve "How fast can you eat this bacon cheeseburger?" Because I'm pretty good at that. I prefer eating them slowly so I can savor the blend of flavors. However I really prefer an Arby's roast beef and cheddar with Horsey sauce. I think it is safe to say this thread has reached its expiration date. Link to comment
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