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hooberus

There is ony one true God

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I think that it should be noted that the JEDP theory and similar beliefs (such as that advocated by Barker) tend to deny either the inspiration, preservation, (or both) of portions of the Old Testament. So I don't think that such concepts are a very sound source for those who claim to believe the Bible as being God's word.

I didn't know that was called JEDP theory...who was P?

Anyway, I already mentioned that this theory would be a problem for LDS.

However, it still might be true, and that would mean all churches are false.

Of course if that happens we still have the power of denial :P

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Samurai Jack,

I am just checking in for a second and I do not have time to deal with the issues raised. I have to run out the door real quick and cross the boarder but I did want to say something. I am sorry for the way I presented the information. It is true and it is the way I feel but I wish I had presented it in a more respectful manner. I consider Margaret Barker as no better than a T.V. Evangelist and I have an anger issue when it comes to them so I am sorry that I let my anger get the best of me.

Real quick I want to remind you that Isaiah was written a little over 700 years ago and the journey with the plates allegedly took place 600 years ago. The Isaiah passages are from the "plates" are identical to the KJV. Therefore there is no reason to believe that the rest of the Isaiah passages that are quoted in the first post are corrupted.

By the way Samurai Jack, I hope that we can have the same kind of respect for each other that we had before. It was my fault that I came across so disrespectful and hope that you will overlook that. I don't consider myself that kind of person. Please consider the Isaiah references and you will see my point that if the BOM is true and accurately translated then it stands to reason that the rest of Isaiah was uncorruptued.

I have to run.

Sorry everyone for being disrespectful.

Sincerely

Jon

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Sorry everyone for being disrespectful.

Sincerely

Jon

No problem. I didn't find anything you said disrespectful.

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Thanks Samurai Jack,

I don't deny that there might be some scholars that believe in a polytheistic past of the Jewish people but to say that "by far most scholars agree that the Jewish heritage is that of Monotheism" is putting it mildly. Looking at all the Scripture that hooberus provided and the monotheistic theme that runs throughout the O.T. would lead anyone to believe that the O.T. teaches that there is one God.

Since the O.T. is accused of corruption then I would like to know WHEN it took place. Hooberus gave us Scripture in Deuteronomy (1450 b.c.), II Samuel (1050 b.c.), and Isaiah (760 b.c.). If corruption took place under Josiah's reign then how did the corruption take place afterwards in the book of Isaiah? Plus, there is the issue of the Isaiah found in II Nephi and other places in the BOM (see above post). A person must either believe that corruption took place after the O.T. was written or THROUGHOUT Jewish history. The most believeable would be after the O.T. was written.

If corruption took place before Jesus came then Jesus would have corrected the mistakes. The belief in one God verses many Gods is a monumental difference and determines what God we believe in. Jesus said He did not cme to destroy the Scriptures but to fulfill them. People were held accountable for not believing everything that was written in Scripture. (Unless we want to deny the the N.T. as well) If Jesus did disgree with the O.T. in how it was written, then why didn't He leave us a record with His disagreement? If we say that the Scriptures wre corrupted after Jesus then we have to say that the Jewish people are ignorant of their own history. But if God has preserved His word, and if the Jewish people are correct about their history, then we must conclude that the O.T. has always taught monotheism.

What is the most likely scenario? God allowed His word to be corrupted and the truth concerning Himself was supressed for centuries and it took JS (someone who "restores" long lost prophecy concerning himself of which no one knew existed before he came on to the scene) to restore everything? Or, did God preserve His word and everything that the scholars (both Jewish and Christian/Catholic) believed throughout the centuries be correct?

Sincerely

Jon

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I think this discussion could be resolved much sooner if there was a consensus of opinion on whether or not the Old Testament has been revised in the translation and transcription process.

If there is evidence to suggest that revisions to the OT text took place, and that these revisions were done by those who advocated a monotheistic religion then the resulting text would support monotheism. This would make this discussion redundant in the sense that there would be little or no evidence of any polytheism in the OT.

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We both agree that their is one God and "there is none else beside him" (Deut 4:35,39).

Johnny,

It certainly would appear that according to YOUR theology there isn

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http://www.contenderministries.org/biblestudy/trinity.php This article gives a really good Christian explanation of the Trinity.

It is a good article, if still somewhat vague and misleading.

As a faithful reader of the biblical support provided in the article I subscribe to all five key points. Howver, my finite understanding of what a being is apparently different from the author's even more finite ability to explain how the "who" is the same as (united)--or different (distinct) from--the "what".

The simple explanation as understood by LDS is that as one God, the Father, Son and HS are each all the same what or nature and purpose, AND that they are distinct as the who or person. IMO this in no way denigrates the omnipotence of God. God is certainly capable of having a body of flesh and bone as Jesus has shown us. It also in no way denigrates from the concept of one united God, as Jesus explains to us who the one true God is and why we pray to the Father in His name.

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Hello all,

Since my last post was not addressed I guess I will bring in something else:

Jesus said, "the first and greatest commandment is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is One.'" Mark 12:29

http://www.resurrectioncec.homestead.com/thereisonegod.html

Sincerely

Jon

P.S. - Great link 1dc!! I think that both sides need to have a better understanding of what the other teaches and that link will help any Mormon understand what the Evangelical Christian believes about the Trinity.

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The belief in one God verses many Gods is a monumental difference and determines what God we believe in.

If as traditional Christians say they don't fully understand the being of God, then it is not a question of who, but rather the nature of something that is not fully understood. There is no evidence of faith that suggests the LDS position could not fit within the realm of that which not understood an explainable by the traditional Chrisitian explanation of the being of God.

OTOH, some descriptions by traditional Christians do not seem to fit into the more descriptive structure of the Godhood as revealed in these latter days.

Since the O.T. is accused of corruption then I would like to know WHEN it took place.

Perhaps it takes place whenever literal vs. figurative interpretations are applied incorrectly to what God knows as correct.

If Jesus did disgree with the O.T. in how it was written, then why didn't He leave us a record with His disagreement?

He wouldn't need to disagree because He is omiscient. And He did leave us with another record to add to the light of Christ we may continuously receive . . it's called the BoM. :P

What is the most likely scenario?

Well, I would have thought the most likely scenario is that all Jews would have known Christ in His ministery and then perhaps He would have had to lay down His life another way . . .

. . .but the reality is that all people struggle to honestly live their conscience, much less OT commandments and His higher Gospel . . .

. . . so now I think the most likely scenario is that Christ is preparing the world for His second coming and He wants the world to search all good works for Truth, understanding, faith, and demonstration of faith . .

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I cant really add too much....Johnny (hi Johnny) has said what I believe...and if I say it...it would be just redundant.

btw hello to the ones I know. It has been a good while...I even almost forgot my password.

Hi Paul.

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Jesus said, "the first and greatest commandment is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is One.'"  Mark 12:29

I like how the NLT expresses it:

NLT Mark 12:29

Jesus replied, "The most important commandment is this: `Hear, O Israel! The Lord our God is the one and only Lord.

What does this mean? It means that there is only one God that can save us! Beside Jesus Christ there is no other Savior!

Mar 6:41 (NLT)

Jesus took the five loaves and two fish, looked up toward heaven, and asked God's blessing on the food. Breaking the loaves into pieces, he kept giving the bread and fish to the disciples to give to the people.

Here we have the only Savior looking up to heaven and asking God's blessing. I think it is plain that the N.T. reveals the God of Israel is a Godhead consisting of more than one Person. Two people, yet one God in unity and purpose, which is to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.

Paul O

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Hi Paul.

Hi!

happy new year!

Paul O

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P.S. - Great link 1dc!! I think that both sides need to have a better understanding of what the other teaches and that link will help any Mormon understand what the Evangelical Christian believes about the Trinity.

All glory for that link goes to doodle . . but thanks anyway. :P

I think the key point missed on this thread is that LDS do believe in one God, just not in the manner summarized by Constatine's council. We don't pray to multiple Lords, though there be Lords many.

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Hi Paul.

Hi!

happy new year!

Paul O

you too. Hope the holidays went well for you.

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Since the O.T. is accused of corruption then I would like to know WHEN it took place. Hooberus gave us Scripture in Deuteronomy (1450 b.c.), II Samuel (1050 b.c.), and Isaiah (760 b.c.). If corruption took place under Josiah's reign then how did the corruption take place afterwards in the book of Isaiah? Plus, there is the issue of the Isaiah found in II Nephi and other places in the BOM (see above post).

Some odds and ends

King Josiah reign 641-610 B.C.

Isaiah chapters cited in the Book of Mormon

2-14,29,48-54

Isaiah chapters cited by Hooberus

43-46

Thus we have the distinct possibility that the Josiah reforms added/revised parts of Isaiah not included in the Brass plates source for the Book of Mormon.

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Mormon Fool,

King Josiah reign 641-610 B.C.

You are right. I dropped the ball on that one. I think my other points are valid but I should have taken better care. My point with the Isaiah portions was that they are virtually identical with the KJV (mistakes and all) and therefore we have no reason to think that the rest of the Isaiah portions were corrupted.

Sincerely

Jon

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The LDS Church does not teach that there is literally one God (as these below scriptures teach - see also my first post here):

Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the LORD he is God; there is none else beside him. Deuteronomy 4:35

Know therefore this day, and consider it in thine heart, that the LORD he is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: there is none else. Deuteronomy 4:39

The LDS Church instead teaches that besides the LORD above (Hebrew-YHWH English-Jehovah) that there are at least two other Gods in existence.

http://scriptures.lds.org/bdg/god

When one speaks of God, it is generally the Father who is referred to; that is, Elohim. All mankind are his children. The personage known as Jehovah in Old Testament times, and who is usually identified in the Old Testament as LORD (in capital letters), is the Son, known as Jesus Christ, and who is also a God. Jesus works under the direction of the Father and is in complete harmony with him. All mankind are his brethren and sisters, he being the eldest of the spirit children of Elohim. Many of the things that the scripture says were done were actually done by the LORD (Jesus). Thus the scripture says that

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Trinitarians however, believe in literally one God (the LORD - YHWH) and that there is no true God besides him, (as these below scriptures teach - see also my first post here):

Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the LORD he is God; there is none else beside him. Deuteronomy 4:35

Know therefore this day, and consider it in thine heart, that the LORD he is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: there is none else. Deuteronomy 4:39

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Trinitarians however, believe in literally one God (the LORD - YHWH) and that there is no true God besides him, (as these below scriptures teach - see also my first post here):

Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the LORD he is God; there is none else beside him. Deuteronomy 4:35

Know therefore this day, and consider it in thine heart, that the LORD he is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: there is none else. Deuteronomy 4:39

The doctrine of the Godhead was misunderstood by the Jews. They rejected Christ because they figured there was already ONE God in heaven and the idea of a second God on earth in the Personage of Christ was too much for them to accept.

They knew that Christ was his own person and that he was NOT the God in heaven who was watching over the angels. They were not about to admit the truth of the Godhead which Christ was trying to reveal to them.

Jesus was himself a Person. So also was his Father. The Jews were outraged at this new doctrine of two Gods being one in unity and purpose.

Paul O

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The doctrine of the Godhead was misunderstood by the Jews. They rejected Christ because they figured there was already ONE God in heaven and the idea of a second God on earth in the Personage of Christ was too much for them to accept.

They knew that Christ was his own person and that he was NOT the God in heaven who was watching over the angels. They were not about to admit the truth of the Godhead which Christ was trying to reveal to them.

Jesus was himself a Person. So also was his Father. The Jews were outraged at this new doctrine of two Gods being one in unity and purpose.

Paul O

Thank for your comments Paul (though I disagree). However, for this thread I would like to stick to a discussion of the Old Testament teachings on God.

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Oh yeah, I forgot about that.

:P

Paul O

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Servant  writes,

I cant really add too much....Johnny (hi Johnny)

Hi Servant,

Glad you stopped by ...

johnny

Paul Osborne  writes,

Are you going to now tell me that Father & Son are a

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1dc  writes,

That is your point and not mine . . but you are entitled to your opinion . . and that opinion of yours denies the Bible because Jesus as God is omnipotent and yet was also human and he is one with the Father . . and it denies your faith in the Trinity because the Creed says the nature of God is unexplainable . . if you can't explain it you can't say He can't do it.

Since this is off-topic and it involves the New Testament I will be just make a couple of quick comments. Open another thread if you want to discuss it further.

Jesus was true God and true Man. Jesus was God prior to his incarnation. It does not deny my faith in the Trinity because the apostles also revealed godliness is a mystery (1Tim 3:16).

1 Timothy 3

16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

In any case, as you posted elsewhere this is not canonized teaching . . and as that post said there are a number of other possible explanations . . one of which is that anything is possible with God.

Below is a link of some possible explanations. I might also add these explanations are not supported by Mormon scriptures.

http://www.fairboards.org/index.php?showto...ndpost&p=158645

At least in the God we believe in.

Joseph Smith revealed that God, our Father, was a man like us. You and I are sinners which would imply that the Mormon God was a sinner just like you and I. In contrast the Son of God was not a sinner.

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