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hooberus

There is ony one true God

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The Old Testament teaches that there is only one true God on earth and in heaven, besides him there is no true God. (please limit discussion to Old Testament verses).

I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. Thou shalt have no other gods before me. Exodus 20:2-3

For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God: Exodus 34:14

Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the LORD he is God; there is none else beside him. Deuteronomy 4:35

Know therefore this day, and consider it in thine heart, that the LORD he is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: there is none else. Deuteronomy 4:39

Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: Deuteronomy 6:4

Behold, the heaven and the heaven of heavens is the LORD's thy God, the earth also, with all that therein is. Deuteronomy 10:14

See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand. Deuteronomy 32:39

And as soon as we had heard these things, our hearts did melt, neither did there remain any more courage in any man, because of you: for the LORD your God, he is God in heaven above, and in earth beneath. Josuha 2:11

There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither is there any rock like our God. 1 Samuel 2:2

Wherefore thou art great, O LORD God: for there is none like thee, neither is there any God beside thee, according to all that we have heard with our ears. 2 Samuel 7:22

For who is God, save the LORD? and who is a rock, save our God? 2 Samuel 22:32

That all the people of the earth may know that the LORD is God, and that there is none else. 1 Kings 8:59-60

And Hezekiah prayed before the LORD, and said, O LORD God of Israel, which dwellest between the cherubims, thou art the God, even thou alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth: thou hast made heaven and earth. LORD, bow down thine ear, and hear: open, LORD, thine eyes, and see: and hear the words of Sennacherib, which hath sent him to reproach the living God. Of a truth, LORD, the kings of Assyria have destroyed the nations and their lands, And have cast their gods into the fire: for they were no gods, but the work of men's hands, wood and stone: therefore they have destroyed them. Now therefore, O LORD our God, I beseech thee, save thou us out of his hand, that all the kingdoms of the earth may know that thou art the LORD God, even thou only. 2 Kings 19:15-19

O LORD, there is none like thee, neither is there any God beside thee, according to all that we have heard with our ears. 1 Chronicles 17:20

And said, O LORD God of Israel, there is no God like thee in the heaven, nor in the earth; which keepest covenant, and shewest mercy unto thy servants, that walk before thee with all their hearts: 2 Chronicles 6:14

Thou, even thou, art LORD alone; thou hast made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth, and all things that are therein, the seas, and all that is therein, and thou preservest them all; and the host of heaven worshippeth thee. Nehemiah 9:6

All nations whom thou hast made shall come and worship before thee, O Lord; and shall glorify thy name. For thou art great, and doest wondrous things: thou art God alone. Psalm 86:9-10

For all the gods of the nations are idols: but the LORD made the heavens. Psalm 96:5

Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. Isaiah 43:10

Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God. And who, as I, shall call, and shall declare it, and set it in order for me, since I appointed the ancient people? and the things that are coming, and shall come, let them shew unto them. Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any. Isaiah 44:6-8

Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself; Isaiah 44:24

I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me: That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else. Isaiah 45:5-6

For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else. Isaiah 45:18

Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me. Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. Isaiah 45:21-22

Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, Isaiah 46:9

But the LORD is the true God, he is the living God, and an everlasting king: at his wrath the earth shall tremble, and the nations shall not be able to abide his indignation. Jeremiah 10:10

Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: for there is no saviour beside me. Hosea 13:4

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Johnny,

Time for me to run to work and then take a nice long weekend.

There are three Gods no matter what the Bible says.

There are three Gods no matter what the Book of Mormon says.

There are three Gods no matter what the D&C says.

There are three Gods no matter what the PofG Price says.

There are three Gods no matter what President Hinckly says.

There are three Gods no matter what. I believe it absoslutely and will work to convince others that it is true.

Paul O

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I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. Thou shalt have no other gods before me. Exodus 20:2-3

For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God: Exodus 34:14

Osborne Bible Version:

"I am JESUS CHRIST, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. Thou shalt have no other gods before me"

"For thou shalt worship no other god: for JESUS CHRIST, whose name is JEHOVAH, is a jealous God"

"Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the Savior JESUS CHRIST is God; there is none else beside him"

"Know therefore this day, and consider it in thine heart, that the Savior JESUS CHRIST is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: there is none else"

"Hear, O Israel: The LORD JESUS CHRIST our God is one SAVIOR"

Have a nice day. :P

Paul O

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Hi hooberus,

Great post ...

If the Old Testament speaks so clearly of one true God then I wonder why do Mormon's believe in multiple Gods?

johnny

BS'D

Shalom,

By Anthromorphic examples and usage of a Hebrew Literary style. Infact, they use some of the same verses the Catholic Church uses to support the concept of the Trinity.

Peace :P

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Hi RebAvomai,

Could you further explain what you mean by "By Anthromorphic examples and usage of a Hebrew Literary style."

Thanks,

johnny

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...

By Anthromorphic examples and usage of a Hebrew Literary style. Infact, they use some of the same verses the Catholic Church uses to support the concept of the Trinity.

Peace :P

However, Joseph Smith saw two personages in the woods outside his home in the Spring of 1820. He was filled by Holy Ghost so that he could sustain their presence.

He experienced:

God the Father: (Who introduced his son)

Jesus Christ: (Who answered Joseph's questions)

the Holy Spirit: (Which enabled Joseph to live in the imediate presence of the Father and Son and not wither and die)

Last I checked any EV and BAC would instantly confess that.

God the Father is God

Jesus Christ is God

Holy Spirit is God.

1+1+1=3

Hmm....

I wonder what why the slander from Hooberus when he himself speaks out of both sides of his mouth?

Therefore:

Our modern day revelation builds upon New Testament revelation which built upon Old Testament revelation. Therefore I see any attempt at reverting to old revelation as wresting the scriptures to their own destruction. Goodbye Hooberus.

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Programmer  writes,

However, Joseph Smith saw two personages in the woods outside his home in the Spring of 1820. He was filled by Holy Ghost so that he could sustain their presence.

However it was a vision ... do you think the objects in a vision are the actual objects?

Last I checked any EV and BAC would instantly confess that.

God the Father is God

Jesus Christ is God

Holy Spirit is God.

1+1+1=3

Clearly your 1+1+1=3 does not fit what the creeds or what the Bible reveals because each person is fully God and each person is not an eternal being.

Our modern day revelation builds upon New Testament revelation which built upon Old Testament revelation. 

The modern day revelation of Joseph Smith contradicts what is revealed in the Old and New Testament.

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In the new FR 16/2 Kevin Christensen uses Margaret Barker to analyze OT monotheism. They think that the strict monotheism that emerged in the OT was a result of the Deuteronomist reforms. The Isaiah monotheism chapters are not quoted in the Book of Mormon, which may mean, as Hugh Nibley suggested, they were not yet written.

From the FR article :

Barker examines the theology behind the use of various divine titles in the text and, by so doing, finds that the titles were not originally interchangeable. In her book The Great Angel: A Study of Israel's Second God, Barker surveys the existing "sons of God" passages in the Bible:

"All the texts in the Hebrew Bible distinguish clearly between the divine sons of Elohim/Elyon and those human beings who are called sons of Yahweh. This must be significant. It must mean that the terms originated at a time when Yahweh was distinguished from whatever was meant by El/Elohim/Elyon. A large number of texts continued to distinguish between El Elyon and Yahweh, Father and Son, and to express this distinction in similar ways with the symbolism of the temple and the royal cult. By tracing these patterns through a great variety of material and over several centuries, Israel's second God can be recovered."

So what to people think about the idea that before King Josiah the Israelites were not strict monotheists? That Sherem might have been a Deuteronomist?

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mormon fool  writes,

In her book The Great Angel: A Study of Israel's Second God, Barker surveys the existing "sons of God" passages in the Bible:

The Old Testament does not speak of a second God.

A large number of texts continued to distinguish between El Elyon and Yahweh, Father and Son

Elohim and Yahweh are not two seperate beings.

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However it was a vision ... do you think the objects in a vision are the actual objects?

That is simply the silliest argument I've ever seen. Or shall I say the Vised?

Joseph see's God the Father, Jesus Christ and is enwrapped by the Holy Spirit so we can withstand it. He then calls it a vision just like 99.999999% of the prophets did in the Bible. Your course of attack is leading you the wrong way. I think most people who reject such a testimony are rather Jealous of Joseph's experience.

Clearly your 1+1+1=3 does not fit what the creeds or what the Bible reveals because each person is fully God and each person is not an eternal being.

So your just accusing me of not believing your creeds. Well there is nothing new under the sun. However you interpret the Bible through your creeds and tradition. Sorry about that.

The modern day revelation of Joseph Smith contradicts what is revealed in the Old and New Testament.

Are you sure you have studied LDS doctrine? I'm beginning to think after all that you haven't.

Are you sure the Roman Church contradicts what is revealed in the Old and New Testament?

I don't seem to have heard of any accounts of the Last 268 Popes recieving any revelations from the Father and Son in the form of a personal appearance.

I don't see anything but confusion, arguing and politicking in the council's that Constantine convened.

I don't see anything but arguing and bickering over the creeds that were 'hammered' out.

I don't see any need to have a creed in the first place. An apostle should have simply been consulted. Easy, he could have written an article of Faith in say 5 minutes, and all those long councils could have been avoided.

I don't seem to have heard of any of the Popes saying "Thus saith the Lord."

I don't seem to have heard of any Pope's bringing more written scripture which said "Thus saith the Lord."

I see no evidence of the Lord making his will known about who should lead his Roman Church, but I see elections, and smoke coming out of chimneys.

I see a different church organization existing through out European history than I see in the New Testament.

I don't see the gifts of the Spirit throughout European history like I do in the New Testament.

I don't see authority being passed from good men to wicked men to good men again. I see men abuse authority in the Bible and I see them therefore loose the Spirit of the Lord.

I see a reliance on Philosophy and Learning and Elite education's and ENDLESS translations rather than on direct revelation.

I see too much gold and silver and silks and scarlets and thrones and armies and wars through-out Roman History.

I see the ordinances changed, and the Everlasting covenant(s) broken through-out Roman History.

I don't even see a church simply named after Jesus Christ.

Therefore a guffaw is the only thing that escapes my mouth when I see the hypocrisy of saying our church contradicts what is revealed in the Old and New Testament.

Johnny, you are really dancing around the subject. The issue is not whether the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost are one or not. You know as well as I that know that the LDS Faith believe's they are one. Any misrepresentation of that fact is dishonest. Our statement of HOW they are one is not nonsensical, and doesn't resort to dusty greek textual exigesis and doesn't resort to confusing paradoxes. It comes from scriptures, and as far as I've seen it's been perfectly ignored by all you Anti-mo's in the past.

This church is the Lord Jesus Christ's church. He set it up just how he wanted to. It resembles his ancient church, and it has his authority. It is led by a Prophet who can say "Hear oh Isreal for thus saith the Lord." It is not necassary for one to take another's word for it, for God said he will make it known unto any man (D&C 1). I've found my knowledge because it was given to me by God himself. I won't reveal more than that. As such I depend on no man woman or child for my witness of God. I depend on no book, no foreign translation and no contradictory (new) philosophy. I depend on no church building, no place and no sacred relic. That my friend IS biblical.

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BS'D

Shalom,

By Anthromorphic examples and usage of a Hebrew Literary style. Infact, they use some of the same verses the Catholic Church uses to support the concept of the Trinity.

Peace :P

RebAvomai,

Forgive my ignorance of Jewish teachings...have Jews always maintained that there is but one G-d? Also that G-d is of pure spirit and not in the form of a man?

Peace be with you.

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Programmer  writes,

That is simply the silliest argument I've ever seen. Or shall I say the Vised?

Since this off topic ... open another thread if you want to continue the discussion and I will be glad to respond.

So your just accusing me of not believing your creeds.

I am accusing you of not believing the Bible ... the Old Testament says one God.

Are you sure the Roman Church contradicts what is revealed in the Old and New Testament?

Since this off topic ... open another thread if you want to continue the discussion and I will be glad to respond.

The issue is not whether the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost are one or not.

The issue of this thread is the Old Testament ... open another thread and I will be glad to discuss any of issues in your last post.

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However, Joseph Smith saw two personages in the woods outside his home in the Spring of 1820. He was filled by Holy Ghost so that he could sustain their presence.

BS'D

Shalom,

At this juncture, all that there is left is agreement to disagreement, since I cannot argue with Joseph Smith :P

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Forgive my ignorance of Jewish teachings...have Jews always maintained that there is but one G-d? Also that G-d is of pure spirit and not in the form of a man?

Peace be with you.

BS'D

Shalom Big Dogger,

a emphatic YES

cool.gif

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In the new FR 16/2 Kevin C. Christensen uses Margaret Barker to analyze OT monotheism. They think that the strict monotheism that emerged in the OT was a result of the Deuteronomist reforms. The Isaiah monotheism chapters are not quoted in the Book of Mormon, which may mean, as Hugh Nibley suggested, they were not yet written.

From the FR article :

Barker examines the theology behind the use of various divine titles in the text and, by so doing, finds that the titles were not originally interchangeable. In her book The Great Angel: A Study of Israel's Second God, Barker surveys the existing "sons of God" passages in the Bible:

"All the texts in the Hebrew Bible distinguish clearly between the divine sons of Elohim/Elyon and those human beings who are called sons of Yahweh. This must be significant. It must mean that the terms originated at a time when Yahweh was distinguished from whatever was meant by El/Elohim/Elyon. A large number of texts continued to distinguish between El Elyon and Yahweh, Father and Son, and to express this distinction in similar ways with the symbolism of the temple and the royal cult. By tracing these patterns through a great variety of material and over several centuries, Israel's second God can be recovered."

So what to people think about the idea that before King Josiah the Israelites were not strict monotheists? That Sherem might have been a Deuteronomist?

BS'D

Shalom,

I have yet to get a copy of Barker's books, so I withold on speaking about them. But from the example you just gave, I already see things I contend with. Should be an intresting read when I finally get ahold of one.

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The Old Testament teaches that there is only one true God on earth and in heaven, besides him there is no true God. (please limit discussion to Old Testament verses).

Prior to the fall of man the Old Testament references to G-ds are plural. As in Genesis

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Greetings,

We should always remember that everyone except Mormons believe that Isreal has always been monotheistic except when they have backslid into sin. The central theme of the Bilble is monotheism and everyone but Mormons believe this. There have been thousands upon thousands of scholars ranging from Jewish, Catholic and Protestant throughout the centuries and all of them believe that the Old Testament is Monotheistic. It is a very rare case that you will find a non-Mormon scholar that will attribute a polythistic past to the Jewish people. Margaret Barker is one of them. She stands in a complete opposite direction to everyone else. The sad thing about using her as an example is the fact that she makes so many elementary errors in her interpretation of Scripture. She in one sense villifies the reformation of Josiah. She reasons that since God is called the "Holy One of Israel" and since angels are called "holy" then that means that "Y-hw-h" is an angel. That would be like me saying that since dogs have eyes and since we have eyes then we must be dogs. There are too many problems to cite. It should strike someone very hard when they realize that a person who is this naive about Scripture and makes this many mistakes that she is someone who is often cited as their reference to prove thier point. Sorry to speak so harshly but I am very tired and cannot figure out a better way to put it.

Good night all

Sincerely

Jon

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(please limit discussion to Old Testament verses).

Sorry, but you can not pick and choose which of Gods words you want to listen to and which of His words you would ignore. It just doesn't work that way.

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> She in one sense villifies the reformation of Josiah. She reasons that since God is called the "Holy One of Israel" and since angels are called "holy" then that means that "Y-hw-h" is an angel.

I've never heard that kind of reasoning from her. Her reasoning that yhwh was an angel was from the hebrew. Also, she routinely references other non-biblical literature. While I don't agree with some of her conclusions, I've never seen anything off like that.

Also, it is fairly common among the liberal theologans that I've read to point to the canaanite roots of judaism. While I might agree that judaism is monotheistic, it wasn't strictly so, in that other devine beings didn't exist.

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Greetings,

We should always remember that everyone except Mormons believe that Isreal has always been monotheistic except when they have backslid into sin.  The central theme of the Bilble is monotheism and everyone but Mormons believe this.  There have been thousands upon thousands of scholars ranging from Jewish, Catholic and Protestant throughout the centuries and all of them believe that the Old Testament is Monotheistic.  It is a very rare case that you will find a non-Mormon scholar that will attribute a polythistic past to the Jewish people.  Margaret Barker is one of them.  She stands in a complete opposite direction to everyone else.  The sad thing about using her as an example is the fact that she makes so many elementary errors in her interpretation of Scripture.  She in one sense villifies the reformation of Josiah.  She reasons that since God is called the "Holy One of Israel" and since angels are called "holy" then that means that "Y-hw-h" is an angel.  That would be like me saying that since dogs have eyes and since we have eyes then we must be dogs.  There are too many problems to cite.  It should strike someone very hard when they realize that a person who is this naive about Scripture and makes this many mistakes that she is someone who is often cited as their reference to prove thier point.  Sorry to speak so harshly but I am very tired and cannot figure out a better way to put it.

Good night all

Sincerely

Jon

Hi Jon,

While I may agree that perhaps some Latter-day Saints hinge a little too much on Barker's words, you may be overstating the case. "Mormons" believe that a restoration has taken place, which includes both the restoring of ancient truths. But we also believe that further truth has been revealed in these latter days, truths which may have not been known to humankind before.

I won't debate whether or not Israel was, indeed, not strictly monotheistic. Due to our belief in continuing revelation, Latter-day Saints don't HAVE to believe that it wasn't. From an LDS perspective, the true nature of the Godhead may very well be something that has been clarified in these latter days. The fact that Barker believes she's on to something is just something some Latter-day Saints find interesting. Our beliefs hardly hinge on her scholarship.

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Thank you Migs,

That is a good answer. Margaret Barker is used by Mormons quite a bit because she is a non-Mormon and she is the non-Mormon "scholar" who believes in the polytheistic heritage of the Old Testament. Without her the Mormons pretty much stand on their own in the belief of a Jewish polytheistic past. Also, without her the Mormons are unable to say that "even non-mormon scholars are..." If I were a Mormon I would wholeheartedly agree with you because the Mormon church does have scholars and for the life of me I cannot figure out why any Mormon would quote her. I don't believe that I am overstating the case at all but I appreciate your response.

Hi Darth Bill,

I was wondering where you have been. I am glad you are back. My former name was "stick of Joseph" but then I lost everything and am just going by my real name now.

Concerning Josiah, please look at page 15. Concerning her reasoning of Y-hw-h being called an angel due to the fact that both of them are called Holy one(s), please look at pages 29-30.

Here is another one: She says that I Chronicles 29:20,23 give evidence that Y-hw-h was manifested in human form because it says that the people "bowed low and fell prostrate before the Lord and the king." She interpretes that as the people WORSHIPED both p.36

I cannot understand how anyone can take her seriously. If I were a Mormon I would disown any knowledge of her. Using that kind of "scholarship" discredits your religion.

Thank you everyone. I might be gone for a little while. Maybe not.

Sincerely

Jon

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Migs  writes,

Our beliefs hardly hinge on her scholarship.

And your beliefs do not hinge on the Bible ...

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The OT is clear that other real and divine Gods exist. For example, besides the 'us' in Genesis, there is also the Most High (EL) giving Yahweh (Jehovah) his portion in Deuteronomy 32. Two Gods!

The first two of the Ten Commandments also shows this:

1. Thou shalt have no other gods(real and divine Gods, check your Lexicon) before me.

2. Thou shalt not make/bow down to (worship) any graven images (idol gods).

So we see that the Ten Commandments distinguishes between real and divine Gods that do exist and fake idol gods just like 1 Cor 8:4-6 does.

The NT validates the OT in this matter:

John 1:1 Jesus is God (as per Isa 9:6 etc. we know that Jesus is Jehovah).

John 20:17 Jesus (who is Jehovah) has a God.

Two Gods!

Etc. etc.

Even the first orthodox Christians and the later Christian apologists knew this! Would you like to see those quotes too? They are numerous.

Thus, the only correct interpretation of verses like those found in Isa 42 and 44 is the LDS one and hence it is not possible to find any single Bible verse or combination thereof in support of the trinity theory.

Btw, the Biblical doctrine of Theosis also supports the fact that there are many real and divine Gods as that is how they are (and will continue to be) made.

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