Predestination. You Asked For It Here It Is.

[jwhitlock]

The defense, if that's what we want to call it. I'd call it an explanation. For God's omnipotence coupled with predestination and Ex Nihilo creation is found in free will.

The moment any being creates a truly free will (or more specifically a moral free will), then the potential for evil has been created. The only possible way to "create" an unconditional love relationship, is to create a free willed being. So God creating us as such, has given us this freedom. IF that is what God did, given us true moral freedom to choose right and wrong, then he no longer is ultimately responsible for our actions, which is why he can say in Romans 8:^{28 "}And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

²⁹ For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

³⁰ Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."

It is impossible for God to create something out of nothing and then abdicate responsibility for the results by saying it has free will. Since the individual created is totally the product of God, then anything that individual would do - even categorized as free will - would find its reason in the design of the God that created that person. And since God has total foreknowledge and can know in advance the results of anything He created out of nothing (there can be no randomness here), then God would indeed be fully responsible for the actions of what He created.

The claim that God has total omnipotence and can do absolutely anything leads to impossible contradictions that cannot possibly exist. God cannot lie. God cannot sin. God cannot get lost. God cannot be unaware of anything. There is nothing that God cannot create out of nothing where He didn't have full control of the process. And so on. To say that God can create a being out of nothing and then has no responsibility for the outcome is to deny the omnipotence of God. The contradictions are clear and significant.

[bluebell]

I can agree with what you say if creation ex nihilo was not involved. If creation ex nihilo then God conceived of your choices before you were around to make them. In this case foreknowledge is really just predestination. He designed your very choices before you were, given the creation ex nihilo and God is omniscient

I agree with you. I'm assuming (maybe wrongly) that Stone holm is coming at this issue from the LDS perspective, since he's LDS.

[danielwoods]

Simple. The will He creates from nothing is EXACTLY what He makes it to be. No more, no less. It can NEVER be more or less than EXACTLY what He made it to be. It, then, can NEVER be "free" from what He made it to be. Any desire in it to sin, is the desire to sin that He made it to be. No more, no less. Any desire in it to do good, is the desire to do good that He made it to be. No more, no less. It can NEVER be independent or "free" from what He made it to be.

So, creatio ex nihilo and true free will are totally and completely incompatible. So, choose one and stick with it.

"It can never be free from what he made it to be." Right. And he made us free willed beings, so that's what we are. We can't ever *not* be free willed beings.

In essence, I hear you saying that God is incapable of creating a free willed being. I disagree with this premise. I haven't seen any evidence to lead to the conclusion that God is incapable of such creative power.

We do observe that some beings on this planet are't free willed beings. Those we call animals. Who are directed by their instincts as their creator designed them to be. We humans, however, have the image of God, which includes the free will part.

[jwhitlock]

It is the reason WHY someone is going to do something that makes the difference.

Is he going to do something because it was predetermined before he was even born that he would (predestination) or is he going to do something, which God knew he would do even before he was born, because he has used his agency to make that choice (foreknowledge)?

When it comes to the choices we make, God is just an observer. He teaches us and tries to help us choose the right, but in the end, our choices are 100% ours.

You're absolutely correct. There is a difference between God the observer (knowing what will happen with the choices we make) and God who predestines by creating us in a manner that we can only make those choices. Foreknowledge is NOT predestination.

[jwhitlock]

"It can never be free from what he made it to be." Right. And he made us free willed beings, so that's what we are. We can't ever *not* be free willed beings.

In essence, I hear you saying that God is incapable of creating a free willed being. I disagree with this premise. I haven't seen any evidence to lead to the conclusion that God is incapable of such creative power.

We do observe that some beings on this planet are't free willed beings. Those we call animals. Who are directed by their instincts as their creator designed them to be. We humans, however, have the image of God, which includes the free will part.

God is incapable of making a free willed being out of nothing and then abdicating responsibility for the results of that creation out of nothing. Even the free will of such a being would be absolutely and totally influenced by the design of the creator. It's a logical impossibility, and such things God cannot do.

Perhaps you can explain how God could be in total control of the process of creation from nothing of a person and then not be responsible for some aspect of the results. I see no way that could be.

[stemelbow]

In essence, I hear you saying that God is incapable of creating a free willed being. I disagree with this premise. I haven't seen any evidence to lead to the conclusion that God is incapable of such creative power.

Let's take it this way--Did God create all things out of nothing?

If so, Did God know the end result of what He would create before He created? meaning did he know you would be saved before he created you out of nothing? If so, how can it be possible to claim he created you as a free-willed being? Such assumptions would require that He conceived of your every thought before you ever were. Thus, your thoughts are only there because he conceived of them for you.

Edited August 7, 2013 by stemelbow

[danielwoods]

It is impossible for God to create something out of nothing and then abdicate responsibility for the results by saying it has free will. Since the individual created is totally the product of God, then anything that individual would do - even categorized as free will - would find its reason in the design of the God that created that person. And since God has total foreknowledge and can know in advance the results of anything He created out of nothing (there can be no randomness here), then God would indeed be fully responsible for the actions of what He created.

The claim that God has total omnipotence and can do absolutely anything leads to impossible contradictions that cannot possibly exist. God cannot lie. God cannot sin. God cannot get lost. God cannot be unaware of anything. There is nothing that God cannot create out of nothing where He didn't have full control of the process. And so on. To say that God can create a being out of nothing and then has no responsibility for the outcome is to deny the omnipotence of God. The contradictions are clear and significant.

In essence, you're saying God can't create a free willed being. I disagree. I think he can and did.

Can and infinite God put on finite flesh and dwell among men? This also was thought to be impossible before Jesus.

[danielwoods]

God is incapable of making a free willed being out of nothing and then abdicating responsibility for the results of that creation out of nothing. Even the free will of such a being would be absolutely and totally influenced by the design of the creator. It's a logical impossibility, and such things God cannot do.

Perhaps you can explain how God could be in total control of the process of creation from nothing of a person and then not be responsible for some aspect of the results. I see no way that could be.

If this being is truly free (morally) to choose as he pleases, then yes, that would mean that God has no responsibility in the moral choices of that individual. But, that is only if that being is truly free (morally).

On what basis is God incapable of creating such a free-willed being?

You asked, "Perhaps you can explain how God could be in total control of the process of creation from nothing of a person and then not be responsible for some aspect of the results. I see no way that could be."

If God created a truly free willed being, then that being or individual created would by definition be responsible for his/her own action/decisions, wouldn't he/she?

If that wasn't the case, then God wouldn't have any grounds to judge them.

Edited August 7, 2013 by danielwoods

[danielwoods]

Let's take it this way--Did God create all things out of nothing?

If so, Did God know the end result of what He would create before He created? meaning did he know you would be saved before he created you out of nothing? If so, how can it be possible to claim he created you as a free-willed being? Such assumptions would require that He conceived of your every thought before you ever were. Thus, your thoughts are only there because he conceived of them for you.

Yes. Yes. Yes.

How could I claim he created free willed being based on the above?

First, that's what he claimed. He created Adam and Eve to be a living soul, in the image of God, and gave him a moral choice.

You are correct, that God knew every thought we'd have before he created us. However, knowledge and control are two different things.

I know my dog will eat and stay alive. I don't control his eating or the process of his staying alive.

[stemelbow]

Yes. Yes. Yes.

How could I claim he created free willed being based on the above?

First, that's what he claimed. He created Adam and Eve to be a living soul, in the image of God, and gave him a moral choice.

You are correct, that God knew every thought we'd have before he created us. However, knowledge and control are two different things.

I know my dog will eat and stay alive. I don't control his eating or the process of his staying alive.

I guess to me it all says, your choices were made before you were ever created. How? God conceived of them for you--your choices must have been mapped out for you before you ever were. That just doesn't sound like free will in any real sense at all. But I guess if you want to call it free will by all means do it. In reality, it simply is not free will.

If all it were taht God could know what was going to happen, then you'd have a point. But as it turns out God designed our choices when making you out of nothing. You are only because He made you and Your choices are only because he designed them for you.

Sadly the problem only gets worse if you think about it. I won't get into that for you though.

Edited August 7, 2013 by stemelbow

[Stone holm]

But Mormons do not believe in ex nihilio. Nor is it IMNSHO relevant to the predestination issue. If God knew exactly how everyone was going to behave then the only purpose for life was to gain a body and some experience, and it seems very unlikely there was any purpose for the sons of perdition. In addition all of the teachings regarding testing and obedience are truly pointless because it was unnecessary since God already knew what the results would be. To say that this was not predestination is basically pointless since God would have known in advance who was going to be damned and went ahead anyway knowing that an individual would neither want to or do that which was expected of them. So Calvin cut through the nonsense and came down on the side of an omniscient God and gave no further concern about the fact that this turned life into a somewhat pointless stage play wherein some went tripping off into outer darkness. Given such a distorted approach to things it would have been no real shock that a third rebelled. No that would not be a God worthy of worship, thank you very much. I'll stick with a God who believed we all had a at least a slim chance of succeeding.

[danielwoods]

I guess to me it all says, your choices were made before you were ever created. How? God conceived of them for you--your choices must have been mapped out for you before you ever were. That just doesn't sound like free will in any real sense at all. But I guess if you want to call it free will by all means do it. In reality, it simply is not free will.

If all it were taht God could know what was going to happen, then you'd have a point. But as it turns out God designed our choices when making you out of nothing. You are only because He made you and Your choices are only because he designed them for you.

Sadly the problem only gets worse if you think about it. I won't get into that for you though.

Since God didn't design our choices we do have the freedom to choose.

Essentially what you are saying is God can't create a free will being out of nothing. I disagree.

[bluebell]

But Mormons do not believe in ex nihilio. Nor is it IMNSHO relevant to the predestination issue. If God knew exactly how everyone was going to behave then the only purpose for life was to gain a body and some experience, and it seems very unlikely there was any purpose for the sons of perdition.

Even though God knows who will be saved and who won't, He can't grant salvation or damn anyone based on what would have been, it wouldn't be just.

It's kind of like that movie The Minority Report-you can't be saved or damn based on a choice you never got to make (even if you really were going to make it).

Remember that in LDS theology, God is God because He follows eternal laws, one of which is the law of justice, but there are likely others as well. He can't do whatever He wants (and remain God). And scripture is clear, we cannot gain exaltation without a body and learning about opposition and how to choose between good and evil, and choosing the good (and if we need a Savior along the way, then God will offer such, still remaining within the bounds eternal laws).

So God couldn't just point at us and say 'you are exalted!' like zeus with a lightning bolt. Doing so would have broken the eternal laws which govern exaltation.

Likewise, the law of Justice declares that a person can only be damned for actual things they have done, thought, etc. God's foreknowledge of what we will do later cannot condemn us. As Alma 12:14 says, our thoughts will condemn us, our words will condemn us, and our actions will condemn us.

So God couldn't just point at us and say 'you are damned!' either. That would have broken the eternal laws which govern damnation.

In addition all of the teachings regarding testing and obedience are truly pointless because it was unnecessary since God already knew what the results would be.

As I said above, God can't save or damn anyone based on foreknowledge. We, in essence, have to actually be involved in it or the whole plan of salvation can't work.

To say that this was not predestination is basically pointless since God would have known in advance who was going to be damned and went ahead anyway knowing that an individual would neither want to or do that which was expected of them.

It is a misunderstood or inaccurate idea of how salvation and damnation works that has brought you to this conclusion. The logic is built on false premises though.

[jwhitlock]

If this being is truly free (morally) to choose as he pleases, then yes, that would mean that God has no responsibility in the moral choices of that individual. But, that is only if that being is truly free (morally).

On what basis is God incapable of creating such a free-willed being?

You asked, "Perhaps you can explain how God could be in total control of the process of creation from nothing of a person and then not be responsible for some aspect of the results. I see no way that could be."

If God created a truly free willed being, then that being or individual created would by definition be responsible for his/her own action/decisions, wouldn't he/she?

If that wasn't the case, then God wouldn't have any grounds to judge them.

You're not looking deep enough at the logical contradictions in this. Again, if God creates something out of nothing, then He is absolutely and totally responsible for the outcome. An omnipotent being cannot create the randomness and independence of existence necessary for free will out of nothing. Under such circumstances, God can't say that this person has a mind and will of their own. Their mind and will was created totally by God in the first place, and God can never claim that He is not responsible for what that person does. Just saying that God can do anything, and so He created a person with free will that He's not responsible for is dodging the question. The Bible doesn't teach that at all; that's a particular interpretation of scripture that doesn't hold up when you look at the implications of these interconnected doctrines.

Creatio ex nihilo and predestination are totally contradictory to free will and the concept of a just and merciful God. Creatio ex nihilo is also non-biblical; orthodox christian theology is the only place where the word "create" gets reinterpreted to mean "make something out of nothing". In every other area of our lives, "create" is used in the sense of reorganizing something or making something out of existing materials.

There must be something else besides the rationalization that God can do anything for this. As I have posited before, God cannot do anything. He is not all powerful in the absolutist sense of the term that orthodoxy uses as a catch all for explaining logical contradictions.

So my question still stands. How does one explain the contradiction inherent in God creating a person out of nothing, and then claiming that person has free will and can be damned based on their choices without God being responsible for them? The answer that "God can do anything" simply doesn't come close to being a cogent response to that question.

[jwhitlock]

Essentially what you are saying is God can't create a free will being out of nothing. I disagree.

Given the logical contradiction inherent in this statement, it is extraordinary to claim that such a contradiction can exist. It is incumbent upon the person making the claim to justify why the contradiction can exist. I have yet to see a good explanation of why God creating free will out of nothing makes any sense at all.

[danielwoods]

You're not looking deep enough at the logical contradictions in this. Again, if God creates something out of nothing, then He is absolutely and totally responsible for the outcome.

This is your claim. God is responsible. My response, unless he creates a free willed being.

An omnipotent being cannot create the randomness and independence of existence necessary for free will out of nothing. Under such circumstances, God can't say that this person has a mind and will of their own. Their mind and will was created totally by God in the first place, and God can never claim that He is not responsible for what that person does.

Randomness isn't apart of the equation. Independence is for sure. Can God create an independent being? You say no, I say yes.

Just saying that God can do anything, and so He created a person with free will that He's not responsible for is dodging the question. The Bible doesn't teach that at all; that's a particular interpretation of scripture that doesn't hold up when you look at the implications of these interconnected doctrines.

Just saying that God can't do it doesn't answer the question either. Like I said, I haven't seen any evidence to the contrary. Where in scripture does it claim that we aren't free moral agents? Or not created out of nothing?

Creatio ex nihilo and predestination are totally contradictory to free will and the concept of a just and merciful God. Creatio ex nihilo is also non-biblical; orthodox christian theology is the only place where the word "create" gets reinterpreted to mean "make something out of nothing". In every other area of our lives, "create" is used in the sense of reorganizing something or making something out of existing materials.

Creation in the beginning was different from creation after that. In the beginning, all that existed was God. "In the beginning God..." After that, he made man out of the dust and breathed life into him. The life wasn't there before. He then became a living soul, which he wasn't before.

The idea that creation out of nothing and predestination are contradictory if it is a controlled predestination. The biblical texts indicate that it is not. Rather he predestines based on our choices, which he foreknew.

There must be something else besides the rationalization that God can do anything for this. As I have posited before, God cannot do anything. He is not all powerful in the absolutist sense of the term that orthodoxy uses as a catch all for explaining logical contradictions.

So my question still stands. How does one explain the contradiction inherent in God creating a person out of nothing, and then claiming that person has free will and can be damned based on their choices without God being responsible for them? The answer that "God can do anything" simply doesn't come close to being a cogent response to that question.

I understand contradictions, however this one isn't that. God has created many types of beings. Some are controlled by their instincts, and some aren't. We are of the type that are not.

Given the logical contradiction inherent in this statement, it is extraordinary to claim that such a contradiction can exist. It is incumbent upon the person making the claim to justify why the contradiction can exist. I have yet to see a good explanation of why God creating free will out of nothing makes any sense at all.

Because that is what he claimed to have done. God created man, with a free will (which is in essence, his image a creator) why is it so difficult to understand that God can create a free moral agent?

[Vance]

"It can never be free from what he made it to be." Right. And he made us free willed beings, so that's what we are.

You can call it what you want, (you are only deceiving yourself) but, if God created it from nothing, then it can NOT have free will. And, further more, you can NOT logically explain how it can be the way you are supposing. All you can do, (and have done), is simply make the claim. You can NOT support it in any way.

In essence, I hear you saying that God is incapable of creating a free willed being.

Out of nothing, YES!

I disagree with this premise. I haven't seen any evidence to lead to the conclusion that God is incapable of such creative power.

It is not a premise, it is a conclusion. You mean evidence other than the clear and plain logical evidence I have provided. You, on the other hand, have only offered your premise, with no supporting data, logic or evidence.

We do observe that some beings on this planet are't free willed beings. Those we call animals. Who are directed by their instincts as their creator designed them to be.

Yes, they are simply creatures. But, according to your theology, we are also just creatures.

We humans, however, have the image of God, which includes the free will part.

We are in the image of God, and we do have free will, thus proving that creatio ex nihilo is a false doctrine.

[jwhitlock]

This is your claim. God is responsible. My response, unless he creates a free willed being.

God cannot create something out of nothing and abdicate responsibility for it. You have yet to show how that's possible.

Randomness isn't apart of the equation. Independence is for sure. Can God create an independent being? You say no, I say yes.

He can't do out out of nothing and then claim that being is responsible for his own actions. God is responsible for those actions in that case.

Just saying that God can't do it doesn't answer the question either. Like I said, I haven't seen any evidence to the contrary. Where in scripture does it claim that we aren't free moral agents? Or not created out of nothing?

Since the concept of creating free willed beings out of nothing is a contradiction in terms, it is up to you to prove that such a claim is viable. That concept isn't contained anywhere in the scriptures.

Creation in the beginning was different from creation after that. In the beginning, all that existed was God. "In the beginning God..." After that, he made man out of the dust and breathed life into him. The life wasn't there before. He then became a living soul, which he wasn't before.

There is no proof - other than your interpretation - that "create" as used in Genesis means "out of nothing". In fact your quote here indicates that God took life and put it into man - in other words, organized something that existed before into something new. He did not create it out of nothing.

The idea that creation out of nothing and predestination are contradictory if it is a controlled predestination. The biblical texts indicate that it is not. Rather he predestines based on our choices, which he foreknew.

Predestination based on our choices is another contradiction in terms. Predestination is defined by the enforcement of God's will on an individual without regard to choice in the matter. Trying to mix predestination and choice in the way you do is like trying to define a Trinity in order to acknowledge three distinct beings, but saying they are only one entity.

I understand contradictions, however this one isn't that. God has created many types of beings. Some are controlled by their instincts, and some aren't. We are of the type that are not.

It is indeed a contradiction. If God creates something out of nothing, He is absolutely responsible for the outcome, no matter what. That's simply logical. It is illogical to claim that God can create something out of nothing and abdicate responsibility for the outcome. To make that claim is to also claim that God is illogical.

Because that is what he claimed to have done. God created man, with a free will (which is in essence, his image a creator) why is it so difficult to understand that God can create a free moral agent?

God has nowhere claimed to have made man out of nothing. There is no clear scripture stating that; from your standpoint, there are only very tenuous extrapolations to support such a doctrine. The scriptures instead speak in a number of places of us having existed before this life, which is absolutely essential in supporting the concept of free will, which we do have.

It remains clear that free will and creation out of nothing are absolutely incompatible. As I noted before, to make such an extraordinary claim, you must have clear evidence that is the case. Such evidence is not anywhere near clear in the scriptures, since it requires a wholesale redefinition of the term "create" in Genesis in order to support it.

[danielwoods]

You can call it what you want, (you are only deceiving yourself) but, if God created it from nothing, then it can NOT have free will. And, further more, you can NOT logically explain how it can be the way you are supposing. All you can do, (and have done), is simply make the claim. You can NOT support it in any way.

Out of nothing, YES!It is not a premise, it is a conclusion. You mean evidence other than the clear and plain logical evidence I have provided. You, on the other hand, have only offered your premise, with no supporting data, logic or evidence.

Yes, they are simply creatures. But, according to your theology, we are also just creatures. We are in the image of God, and we do have free will, thus proving that creatio ex nihilo is a false doctrine.

What evidence did you provide? I must have missed it.

All I have seen is your claim (unsupported by any evidence), such as this: "if God created it from nothing, then it can NOT have free will."

[jwhitlock]

As an aside to all this, the concept of God being omnipotent in that He can do anything - even contradictory or illogical things - is something that christian orthodoxy relies on as its final defense of what are otherwise indefensible doctrines. Conceptually, the way I understand it, if God does something that would be sinful, then it isn't sinful because He is God. If God does something that is impossible from a rational standpoint, it is not impossible or irrational because He is God. If God does something totally illogical, then it is not illogical because He is God. And so on.

Such a view of an absolutely omnipotent God, who is able to change the rules to suit any situation, leads to the necessity to claim that there is never any either / or when it comes to God. Can He get lost? A totally omniscient God shouldn't be able to get lost, but if God can do anything, then He must be able to get lost. But He can't really get lost, can He? Such contradictions become the baggage of such absolutist doctrines.

The claim that some doctrine is true because God can do anything does not stand on its merits. It's circular reasoning and doesn't do anything to answer the significant contradictions that arise when you pursue some orthodox christian doctrines to their rational conclusions. God cannot be a God of contradictions. He can't both save people because of their free will and arbitrarily damn them because he predestines it. He can't create us out of nothing and then choose who will burn for eternity, and who will be saved since he must, by necessity, then be responsible for what we become. He can't be a just and loving and merciful God when He predestines beings created out of nothing to suffer for eternity.

The stock answer for all these contradictions seems to be that God can do anything He wants. If that's the case, then I find it difficult to make any sense of what we're going through now. If God can do anything, then it makes a Savior absolutely unnecessary. If God can do anything, then it's hard to determine any kind of rational purpose for what we're going through in this temporal existence and what happens to so many of us.

It's no wonder that the explanations for predestination, creatio ex nihilo, and total omnipotence seem to be so twisted and hard to understand. They don't make much sense if you really start to think about them.

Makes me all the more grateful for the doctrines of the restored gospel.

[jwhitlock]

What evidence did you provide? I must have missed it.

All I have seen is your claim (unsupported by any evidence), such as this: "if God created it from nothing, then it can NOT have free will."

Then we have to repeat it again: the concept of God creating something from nothing and then not being responsible for the results is inherently contradictory. It flies against logic.

No other proof is required. If you make a claim that is illogical, you have to supply significant evidence to back it up. Just saying that God can do it doesn't cut it.

[danielwoods]

God cannot create something out of nothing and abdicate responsibility for it. You have yet to show how that's possible.

He can't do out out of nothing and then claim that being is responsible for his own actions. God is responsible for those actions in that case.

Since the concept of creating free willed beings out of nothing is a contradiction in terms, it is up to you to prove that such a claim is viable. That concept isn't contained anywhere in the scriptures.

There is no proof - other than your interpretation - that "create" as used in Genesis means "out of nothing". In fact your quote here indicates that God took life and put it into man - in other words, organized something that existed before into something new. He did not create it out of nothing.

Predestination based on our choices is another contradiction in terms. Predestination is defined by the enforcement of God's will on an individual without regard to choice in the matter. Trying to mix predestination and choice in the way you do is like trying to define a Trinity in order to acknowledge three distinct beings, but saying they are only one entity.

It is indeed a contradiction. If God creates something out of nothing, He is absolutely responsible for the outcome, no matter what. That's simply logical. It is illogical to claim that God can create something out of nothing and abdicate responsibility for the outcome. To make that claim is to also claim that God is illogical.

God has nowhere claimed to have made man out of nothing. There is no clear scripture stating that; from your standpoint, there are only very tenuous extrapolations to support such a doctrine. The scriptures instead speak in a number of places of us having existed before this life, which is absolutely essential in supporting the concept of free will, which we do have.

It remains clear that free will and creation out of nothing are absolutely incompatible. As I noted before, to make such an extraordinary claim, you must have clear evidence that is the case. Such evidence is not anywhere near clear in the scriptures, since it requires a wholesale redefinition of the term "create" in Genesis in order to support it.

Instead of reposting the same ideas. Let's separate them.

1) Can God create a free-will being?

2) Does the process by which God created, limit what he creates? Or does it effect it at all?

My answers are Yes and no.

God isn't limited by the process at all. If he chose to create out of nothing, that's his prerogative. If he created out of something, that's his prerogative as well. Either way he has the ability to create a free-will being.

The idea that there is a clear contradiction between creating a free-will being out of nothing isn't established by your simply claiming such is true.

[danielwoods]

As an aside to all this, the concept of God being omnipotent in that He can do anything - even contradictory or illogical things - is something that christian orthodoxy relies on as its final defense of what are otherwise indefensible doctrines. Conceptually, the way I understand it, if God does something that would be sinful, then it isn't sinful because He is God. If God does something that is impossible from a rational standpoint, it is not impossible or irrational because He is God. If God does something totally illogical, then it is not illogical because He is God. And so on.

Not quite an accurate portrayal of those beliefs. Christian Orthodoxy doesn't rely on indefensible doctrines.

Such a view of an absolutely omnipotent God, who is able to change the rules to suit any situation, leads to the necessity to claim that there is never any either / or when it comes to God. Can He get lost? A totally omniscient God shouldn't be able to get lost, but if God can do anything, then He must be able to get lost. But He can't really get lost, can He? Such contradictions become the baggage of such absolutist doctrines.

Same. Logical contradictions such as can God create a rock to heavy to lift, have no bearing on the actual doctrine of omnipotence.

The claim that some doctrine is true because God can do anything does not stand on its merits. It's circular reasoning and doesn't do anything to answer the significant contradictions that arise when you pursue some orthodox christian doctrines to their rational conclusions. God cannot be a God of contradictions. He can't both save people because of their free will and arbitrarily damn them because he predestines it. He can't create us out of nothing and then choose who will burn for eternity, and who will be saved since he must, by necessity, then be responsible for what we become. He can't be a just and loving and merciful God when He predestines beings created out of nothing to suffer for eternity.

The stock answer for all these contradictions seems to be that God can do anything He wants. If that's the case, then I find it difficult to make any sense of what we're going through now. If God can do anything, then it makes a Savior absolutely unnecessary. If God can do anything, then it's hard to determine any kind of rational purpose for what we're going through in this temporal existence and what happens to so many of us.

It's no wonder that the explanations for predestination, creatio ex nihilo, and total omnipotence seem to be so twisted and hard to understand. They don't make much sense if you really start to think about them.

Makes me all the more grateful for the doctrines of the restored gospel.

The stock answer isn't "God can do anything he wants." Rather, it all comes back to his word. But I can understand the confusion, if you attempt to view it through the lens of the "restored" gospel.

[danielwoods]

Then we have to repeat it again: the concept of God creating something from nothing and then not being responsible for the results is inherently contradictory. It flies against logic.

No other proof is required. If you make a claim that is illogical, you have to supply significant evidence to back it up. Just saying that God can do it doesn't cut it.

Repeating something doesn't make it automatically true.

Your claim is God can't create a free-willed being.

You say you base this on logic? I suspect you base this on your own view that "intelligences" existed beforehand, and that God just organized them at creation. Which by the way isn't logic, but faith.

[Calm]

I suspect that the doctrine had its origin in dealing with omniscience. Calvin came down on the side of omniscience and the rest just flowed from there.

Someone (probably on this board, but it was awhile ago so I can't give credit where it is due, but one of the many people who have been kind enough to try and educate me in their beliefs) informed me it was more about sovereignty...God is master over all, God is in control of all. If I understand it correctly...which I may not.