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Tithing - Gross, Net, Or Leftover


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I have been pondering tithing for a while. I joined the Church 17 years ago. I am the only member of my family (not including future wife, kids, and in laws) I was 17 years old and the mebers of the Ward who helped me develop my framework of what is Church Doctrine taught me to see Tithing as 10% of your gross pay.

Fast forward 14 - 17 years. I have for the past couple of years been on a quest to rid myself of false beliefs, fasle doctrine, and bad assumptions. For the first time ever I am seeing that A.) the pure Doctrine is 10% of our increase which is understood as Income. B.) That Income can mean various things, and C.) that each member is encouraged by the Church to prayerfully seek their personal definiton from the Lord and then do as the Lord says and pay it.

This leaves plenty of individual flexibility and responsibility to receive an revelatory answer.

My questions are

1.) Why don't we teach this openly in our three hour block as it seems most members had it defined for them as gross.

2.) what can we do to teach the official stance

On March 19, 1970, the LDS First Presidency sent a letter to presidents of stakes and missions, bishops of wards, and presidents of branches in answer to the question, What is a proper tithe?

"For your guidance in this matter, please be advised that we have uniformly replied that the simplest statement we know of is that statement of the Lord himself that the members of the Church should pay one-tenth of all their
interest
annually, which is understood to mean income.
No one is justified in making any other statement than this.
We feel that every member of the Church should be
entitled to make his own decision
as to what he thinks he owes the Lord, and to make payment accordingly."

The church's official General Handbook of Instructions quotes from this March 19, 1970 letter from the First Presidency as what sets forth a definition of what is tithed. Here is a portion of the General Handbook of Instructions from that section:

"The simplest statement we know of is the statement of the Lord himself, namely, that the members of the Church should pay one-tenth of all their
interest
annually,' which is understood to mean income. No one is justified in making any other statement than this." (First Presidency letter, 19 Mar. 1970;
see also D&C 119:4
).

3.) Would the Church prefer we see it as gross though they will not officially define it that way

and 4.) If someone delivered the following talk in a meeting would it be well received

TITHING

D&C 119:3-5

3 And this shall be the beginning of the tithing of my people.

4 And after that, those who have thus been tithed shall pay one-tenth of all their interest annually; and this shall be a standing law unto them forever, for my holy priesthood, saith the Lord.

5 Verily I say unto you, it shall come to pass that all those who gather unto the land of Zion shall be tithed of their surplus properties, and shall observe this law, or they shall not be found worthy to abide among you.

Gen 14:19-20

19 And he blessed him, and said, Blessed be Abram of the most high God, possessor of heaven and earth:

20 And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him tithes of all.

JST Gen 14:37-40

37 And he lifted up his voice, and he blessed Abram, being the high priest, and the keeper of the storehouse of God;

38 Him whom God had appointed to receive tithes for the poor.

39 Wherefore, Abram paid unto him tithes of all that he had, of all the riches which he possessed, which God had given him more than that which he had need.

40 And it came to pass, that God blessed Abram, and gave unto him riches, and honor, and lands for an everlasting possession; according to the covenant which he had made, and according to the blessing wherewith Melchizedek had blessed him.

1970 First Presidentcy Statement

On March 19, 1970, the LDS First Presidency sent a letter to presidents of stakes and missions, bishops of wards, and presidents of branches in answer to the question, What is a proper tithe?

"For your guidance in this matter, please be advised that we have uniformly replied that the simplest statement we know of is that statement of the Lord himself that the members of the Church should pay one-tenth of all their interest annually, which is understood to mean income. No one is justified in making any other statement than this. We feel that every member of the Church should be entitled to make his own decision as to what he thinks he owes the Lord, and to make payment accordingly."

Handbook

"The simplest statement we know of is the statement of the Lord himself, namely, that the members of the Church should pay one-tenth of all their interest annually,' which is understood to mean income. No one is justified in making any other statement than this." (First Presidency letter, 19 Mar. 1970; see also D&C 119:4).

Daniel Johnson 2006 Conference = Gross

Elder Holland - Oct 2001 conf = Gross

Howard W Hunter Gross - ‘The law is simply stated as ‘one-tenth of all their interest. ‘Interest means profit, compensation, increase. It is the wage of one employed, the profit from the operation of a business, the increase of one who grows or produces, or the income to a person from any other source.

The Lord said it is a standing law ‘forever’ as it has been in the past.’ (In Conference Report, Apr. 1964, 35).”

James E Talmadge - Net - "You have need of many things in this world-food, clothing, and shelter for your family AND YOURSELF, the common comforts of life, AND THE THINGS THAT SHALL BE CONDUCIVE TO REFINEMENT, TO DEVELOPMENT, TO RIGHTEOUS ENJOYMENT. YOU DESIRE MATERIAL POSSESSIONS TO USE FOR THE ASSISTANCE OF OTHERS AND THEREBY GAIN GREATER BLESSINGS FOR YOURSELF AND YOURS. NOW, you shall have the means of acquiring these things; but remember they are mine, and I require of you the payment of a rental upon that which I give into your hands. However, your life will not be one of uniform increase IN SUBSTANCE AND POSSESSIONS; YOU WILL HAVE YOUR LOSSES, AS WELL AS YOUR GAIN; YOU WILL HAVE YOUR PERIODS OF TROUBLE AS WELL AS YOUR TIMES OF PEACE. SOME YEARS WILL BE YEARS OF PLENTY UNTO YOU, AND OTHERS WILL BE YEARS OF SCARCITY. AND, NOW, instead of doing as mortal landlords do-require you to CONTRACT WITH THEM to pay in advance, whatever your fortunes or your prospects may be-you shall pay me NOT IN ADVANCE, BUT when you have received; and you shall pay me in accordance with what you receive. If it so be that in one year your income is abundant, then YOU CAN AFFORD TO PAY ME a little more; and if it be so that the next year is one of distress and your income is not what it was, then YOU SHALL PAY ME LESS; AND SHOULD IT BE THAT YOU ARE REDUCED TO THE UTMOST PENURY SO THAT YOU HAVE NOTHING COMING IN, YOU WILL PAY ME NOTHING. "Have you ever found a landlord of earth who was willing to make that kind of a contract with you? When I consider the liberality of it all, and the consideration that my Lord has had for me, I feel in my heart that I could scarcely raise my countenance to his heaven above if I tried to defraud him out of that just rental.

Orson Hyde Leftover - statement from the Apostle Orson Hyde in 1847.

"The celestial law requires one-tenth part of all a man's substance which he possesses at the time he comes into the church (See D&C 119:1), and one-tenth part of his annual increase ever after(See D&C 119:4). IF IT REQUIRES ALL MAN CAN EARN TO SUPPORT HIMSELF AND HIS FAMILY, HE IS NOT TITHED AT ALL. The celestial law does not take the mother's and children's bread, neither ought else which they really need for their comfort. The poor that have not of this world's good to spare, but serve and honor God according to the best of their abilities in every other way, shall have a celestial crown in the Eternal Kingdom of our Father." (The Millenial Star, 1847. Orson Hyde, editor)

The spectrum of Choices one has

- Tithing is a tenth - it is not a 20th or a 5th.

- Tenth of What? - Gross, Net, Leftover - Not for us to define for others - It is a personal decision between us and the Lord

1970 Statement - "For your guidance in this matter, please be advised that we have uniformly replied that the simplest statement we know of is that statement of the Lord himself that the members of the Church should pay one-tenth of all their interest annually, which is understood to mean income. No one is justified in making any other statement than this. We feel that every member of the Church should be entitled to make his own decision as to what he thinks he owes the Lord, and to make payment accordingly."

It is not up for interpretation except between you and the Lord – so go get your answer - The important part is that God has asked you to communicate with him and take take the opportunity to receive revelation from him.

Edited by DBMormon
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This is my favorite, and runs contrary to some Ensign articles I've read.

Orson Hyde Leftover - statement from the Apostle Orson Hyde in 1847.

"The celestial law requires one-tenth part of all a man's substance which he possesses at the time he comes into the church (See D&C 119:1), and one-tenth part of his annual increase ever after(See D&C 119:4). IF IT REQUIRES ALL MAN CAN EARN TO SUPPORT HIMSELF AND HIS FAMILY, HE IS NOT TITHED AT ALL. The celestial law does not take the mother's and children's bread, neither ought else which they really need for their comfort. The poor that have not of this world's good to spare, but serve and honor God according to the best of their abilities in every other way, shall have a celestial crown in the Eternal Kingdom of our Father." (The Millenial Star, 1847. Orson Hyde, editor)

And this one, "Tithing is a tenth - it is not a 20th or a 5th", I don't like, and remember an article in the Ensign where someone pays 20 percent to the church, he was so faithful. I don't think that should have been presented. My in laws will read that and take off with it. They already have a trust with the church. And have told their children that they feel better leaving a lot of the money to the church. Forget about grandchildren that could benefit, if even a little bit. Though they have been very generous and supported many on their missions.

ETA: I found the Ensign article, it was a First Presidency Message by Pres. Monson. Here is the quote from the Oct. 2009 Ensign. "To know that a poor man consistently and cheerfully gave at least twice a tenth to the Lord gave one a clearer insight into the true meaning of tithing. To see him minister to the hungered and take in the stranger made one know that he did it as he would do to the Master. To pray with him and partake of his confidence of divine intercession was to experience a new medium of communication."

This is an interesting out look.....

http://puremormonism...ch-tithing.html

Most of my married life, my husband and I paid on gross, but the past 2 or 3 years, no longer. I want to put money towards the poor, not church ad campaigns. Those just don't sit well with me.

Edited by Tacenda
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The "leftover" surplus method is interesting for me and one I didn't know about until recently. I know a handful of people that actually use this method in paying their tithing today and consider it a full tithe.

Is it generally agrees upon that this method was the method used initially in the church? If so, when did the change over to "income" and not "surplus" occur?

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The "leftover" surplus method is interesting for me and one I didn't know about until recently. I know a handful of people that actually use this method in paying their tithing today and consider it a full tithe.

Is it generally agrees upon that this method was the method used initially in the church? If so, when did the change over to "income" and not "surplus" occur?

Income can legally and did at that time mean leftover after your needs were taken care of. Our understanding of the word changed, not the word itself

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We do teach this openly.

Not in my ward or stake or the ensign or the sunday school manuals

Edited by DBMormon
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Not in my ward or stake or the ensign or the sunday school manuals

Is it actually taught in your ward, stake, ensign, and sunday school manuals that you need to pay tithing on gross or net? Or are you just saying that no one talks about how the decision is a personal decision?

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Is it actually taught in your ward, stake, ensign, and sunday school manuals that you need to pay tithing on gross or net? Or are you just saying that no one talks about how the decision is a personal decision?

Both, it is an assumption that is taught without any other view taught. No one has ever mentioned praying about what a full tithe is. Tithing is 10% of gross, no ifs ands or buts, is taught exclusively

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Tithing is 10% of gross, no ifs ands or buts, is taught exclusively

Wow. That's not the way it's been taught in any of the wards I've been in for at least the last 15 years.

It's always been taught 10% of "income" and if it's Sunday School you'll get the "If you want net blessings, pay net, but I want gross blessings" from someone commenting.

But I haven't heard a "it's gross, no if and's or buts" .... maybe ever (but I wasn't paying much attention when I was younger).

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Depends on how much blessings you want

Which is a crock. It's between the member and the Lord and using the kind of guilt trip is nonsense. Then paying 30% gets more blessings then 10%. Ridiculous

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Church Ad Campaigns are NOT paid for by "Tithing" of the Church Membership. It's paid for by it's Business holdings.

Seems to me that such wouldn't be a bad thing as it contributes to missionary work as the more comfortable people feel around LDS the more likely they will invite in and listen to the missionaries or even seek out info from the Church on their own.
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Depends on how much blessings you want

I think the attitude is what matters most. If one gives wholeheartedly and sincerely of his net, he will receive more than if he gives with any sense of reluctance, no matter how small, of his gross. And I don't see why the Lord would send less blessings to someone who paid net because they truly believed that was what the Lord required and desired of him/her than he would if someone felt the same way about gross.

We pay gross not because we think there is any significant difference between either since the Lord hasn't indicated to either myself or my husband his preference for us, but simply because we can, we think it a great and wonderful work and we take joy in being able to do so. I don't believe it makes one whit of difference in blessings besides being able to experience that.

Edited by calmoriah
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Church Ad Campaigns are NOT paid for by "Tithing" of the Church Membership. It's paid for by it's Business holdings.

I beg your pardon, on the new tithing slips it is unclear where the money is spent. How do you KNOW it's not!

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I think the attitude is what matters most. If one gives wholeheartedly and sincerely of his net, he will receive more than if he gives with any sense of reluctance, no matter how small, of his gross. And I don't see why the Lord would send less blessings to someone who paid net because they truly believed that was what the Lord required and desired of him/her than he would if someone felt the same way about gross.

We pay gross not because we think there is any significant difference between either since the Lord hasn't indicated to either myself or my husband his preference for us, but simply because we can, we think it a great and wonderful work and we take joy in being able to do so. I don't believe it makes one whit of difference in blessings besides being able to experience that.

Amen Cal

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I beg your pardon, on the new tithing slips it is unclear where the money is spent. How do you KNOW it's not!

What is with the disrespectful attitude? Excuse yourself please.

We know because members work for the Church and know how things work, and they meet with other members and tell them how they work.

People seem to forget that this Church is small still and it's leaders and administrator's at various levels travel, and the rest of us who meet those individuals in discussion are informed of how things work.

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What is with the disrespectful attitude? Excuse yourself please.

We know because members work for the Church and know how things work, and they meet with other members and tell them how they work.

People seem to forget that this Church is small still and it's leaders and administrator's at various levels travel, and the rest of us who meet those individuals in discussion are informed of how things work.

I thought "beg your pardon" was a good etiquette way of speaking

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As to what we should give, I think if we are ultra poor and all we can pay is our technical increase then that is what we should pay.

If our needs are met, then we should pay our gross since that also would meet the higher spirit of the law.

But, that's me. Everyone else needs to choose whether they are sincere in their actions and needs, or whether they are trying to test God.

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What is with the disrespectful attitude? Excuse yourself please.

We know because members work for the Church and know how things work, and they meet with other members and tell them how they work.

People seem to forget that this Church is small still and it's leaders and administrator's at various levels travel, and the rest of us who meet those individuals in discussion are informed of how things work.

That's how transparency would help. Members like me wouldn't have a leg to stand on in saying that, if they have the facts. Sorry, if I came off as disrespectful, but do you have authority to excuse me? Hopefully you aren't using your PH authority on me.
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I thought "beg your pardon" was a good etiquette way of speaking

It was clear in the context of the statement that there was "irritation" in the question. (KNOW) etc.

Anyone should be able to see that.

"Normal" speech the person would have simply asked "How do you know that".

I beg your pardon is usually a form of "excuse me?", even in Old English.

Edited by williamsmith
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It was clear in the context of the statement that there was "irritation" in the question. (KNOW) etc.

Anyone should be able to see that.

"Normal" speech the person would have simply asked "How do you know that".

I be your pardon is usually a form of "excuse me?", even in Old English.

It was in response to your (NOT). Edited by Tacenda
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That's how transparency would help. Members like me wouldn't have a leg to stand on in saying that, if they have the facts. Sorry, if I came off as disrespectful, but do you have authority to excuse me? Hopefully you aren't using your PH authority on me.

And here we see the "root" of that irritation, a contempt for the Church in not being more transparent, as well as trying to make some false accusation of me abusing some Priesthood authority.

I find this line of comments and the support of it unfortunate.

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That's how transparency would help. Members like me wouldn't have a leg to stand on in saying that, if they have the facts. Sorry, if I came off as disrespectful, but do you have authority to excuse me? Hopefully you aren't using your PH authority on me.

I really am not concerned about just what amount of the tithing goes where. The fruits are to be seen everywhere, in the temples, the new church buildings, etc, as well as the fact that the operating expenses for all of those buildings come from tithing.

Of course, all of those GA's living in huge mansions and being chauffered in those loooonnnnggg limousines...........

I pay my titihing on the gross amount of my paycheck. If I do any freelance work, I pay my titihing on any profits I may realize.

Since we do not provide an itemized account of our earnings, it is all a matter of honor, of paying according to the spirit ofthat law.

I have some storiesto tell of people who couldn't afford to pay tithing, but did so anyway, and prospered

Glenn

Edited by Glenn101
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